[axisdrama]

Hello gang :-)

I'm a web developer looking to expand my skills and marketability. I've recently been learning PHP and having a lot of fun. But, I did a little web search on some job sites and it seems that ASP is a more sought-after skill. Which do you think is more desired and sought by companies? If it's ASP, is there a nice way to do ASP development on Mac OS X? (I'm PC-less at home). Also, what do you think are the best marketable languages to learn and in what order?

Thanks in advance for your comments :-)

[mrburri]

Looking for a job, and looking towards the future. Then I would look into JSP, Beans, and Serlvets, from J2EE.

J2EE is backed by SUN, IBM (2nd largest Java supported), Apple (Web Objects), and Open Source Community (Tomcat , JBoss, Resin, etc), Oracle, Macromedia (Cold Fusion) etc etc.

You can also take your Java Skills, to J2SE (Client Side Applications), and J2ME (Portables, PDA's). Also if MS comes to rule al the world. Then the move to C#, is easy as C# is just a rip off from Java.

PHP is a fun and easy language to learn. It however suffers in the commercial arena, as it has no large corporate backer. It is also not very scale able, in relation to Java.

ASP, is a language in change, it has MS, to back it, and most ASP development is shifting to .NET.VB or C# . Now .NET is not something I wish to get involved in, as no matter what MS claims I refuse to be locked into Windows as my Development platform. Also being stuck to NT, ISS does not instil me with confidence.

You have three options, Java, worlds largest (almost) development language. With the largest Development community of all three (3 Million at last count). PHP, see above, and ASP traps you to MS. Make your selection.

PS. Do not fall for all the crap the Java haters pull of their ass their like people who hate the Macintosh. never used it and thus never truly understand the power.

[benschilke]

Originally posted by mrburri:
Looking for a job, and looking towards the future. Then I would look into JSP, Beans, and Serlvets, from J2EE.

J2EE is backed by SUN, IBM (2nd largest Java supported), Apple (Web Objects), and Open Source Community (Tomcat , JBoss, Resin, etc), Oracle, Macromedia (Cold Fusion) etc etc.

You can also take your Java Skills, to J2SE (Client Side Applications), and J2ME (Portables, PDA's). Also if MS comes to rule al the world. Then the move to C#, is easy as C# is just a rip off from Java.

PHP is a fun and easy language to learn. It however suffers in the commercial arena, as it has no large corporate backer. It is also not very scale able, in relation to Java.

ASP, is a language in change, it has MS, to back it, and most ASP development is shifting to .NET.VB or C# . Now .NET is not something I wish to get involved in, as no matter what MS claims I refuse to be locked into Windows as my Development platform. Also being stuck to NT, ISS does not instil me with confidence.

You have three options, Java, worlds largest (almost) development language. With the largest Development community of all three (3 Million at last count). PHP, see above, and ASP traps you to MS. Make your selection.

PS. Do not fall for all the crap the Java haters pull of their ass their like people who hate the Macintosh. never used it and thus never truly understand the power.

From what mrburri wrote, it seems like java is a good language to know, which is encouraging. I'm taking an Intro to CS class at Rutgers U and I'm really liking java. It's encouraging to know that a competent company like Sun hasn't been barrelled over by Microsloth.

How many programmers are there that are able to write java in Unix rather than having to use the Windows environment? I would love to learn more languages and get a job programming, but having to work in a Windows environment is a real downer.

[axisdrama]

Great! Thanks for your thorough response! I'll look into Java since I've been wanting to do that anyway. Is Project Builder a good development app for that? Is it important to learn C first, even though I already have some ground in development (PHP, Perl, Javascript, Actionscripting, etc.)? Thanks so much for your help! :-)

[Kristoff]

...what they said!



Java is it. Grab yourself Sun One Studio 4.0 Update 1. Happy coding!

[clarkgoble]

Plus if you know Java then picking up C# or even VB.net will be fairly easy. I'd learn a little PHP as well. Once again if you know it then picking up ASP will be easy. They are fairly similar in many ways.

I'd actually say that, depending upon the kind of web development you do, that Perl and Python might be nice to pick up as well. (Perl is probably more useful for looking for a job, although Python is a superior language in my opinion)

[Raman]

If you want a job then learn ASP and C#/ASP.NET

If you learn C# you'll be able to pick up Java/JSP pretty easily as any other curly bracket language.

There's no crime in learning more than 1 language, you know.. Plus it will make you the most marketable.

In times like these (at least in the US) you're going to be competing against people that know ASP/JSP/whatever and that have EXPERIENCE in the technology that are willing to take less money due to the job market. Now's not a good time for beginners or college grads.

I took CS110 at Rutgers (Cook college) and we learned Pascal. That was the last CS class I ever took Now I'm programming (more importantly, getting paid well for) ASP/VB.NET/C#, etc.. I'd like to do some Java but like any of us, we're glad to have jobs right now and will learn whatever language they want us to.. after a while you'll see they're all the same..

By the way.. Unlike Java, C# and the CLI is a ECMA spesicification. Sun didn't want to "open source" Java. C# and the CLI is available on the OSX/BSD platform now. At least now I can write apps for OSX, too.

[axisdrama]

Thanks again, guys.

I really am thankful for my current job doing a mix of design and layout/programming (html, javascript, flash, photoshop, quark, actionscripting, php, perl etc.) at a very small design firm (5 people) for 40k out in the burbs, but am always looking to expand my skills, marketability and salary and find a place with some more growth opportunities -- especially since I'll soon turn 29, recently got married, will soon be looking for a house and may want to start trying to have children. My wife's a graphic designer making a bit more than me (45k), but when we start having kids, she won't be able to work full-time...thus, my search ;-) (plus, I just like learning new things!) :-)

I think I'll finish creating our site in php, learn a little database management with mysql for fun, then move on to Java and C# respectively. Mac OS X should have C# stuff pretty set by then, too. Hopefully, the market will be a bit better then and I'll be able to find something that will give my wife and me a bit more to work with. Thanks again for all of your help!

I'll keep checkin' back to learn more if more of you respond :-) Thanks again!

[mrburri]

This may sound like a strange, and some may critic me for saying it.

Be warned, that if we allow Microsoft, and its .NET solutions, to stick its head into the tent. Then you will never ever get rid of them.

I feel that we must all make a moral stand, and draw a line in the sand. That says enough is enough. If we all as individuals, all say a moral NO to Microsoft we as individuals may do that which our governments have failed to do for us, and to stop the infestation that has besieged our lives.

So say know to .NET and say no to all of Uncle Bill's poisoned bag of goodies.

[snerdini]

Originally posted by mrburri:

PHP is a fun and easy language to learn. It however suffers in the commercial arena, as it has no large corporate backer. It is also not very scale able, in relation to Java.

What do you mean PHP isn't scalable?

[yeslekmc]

Originally posted by Raman:
... C# and the CLI is available on the OSX/BSD platform now. At least now I can write apps for OSX, too.

Have you actually done this yet? Does it really work?

I get paid (and paid well) to write C# Windows Forms applications and ASP.NET web services (written in C# as well). I know the core C# language well (along with a whole slew of other languages --current and extinct) and love it! To me it's the best language out there at the moment and the automatic garbage collection rocks! I wish I could use C# (instead of Objective C) to write Mac OS X apps. Not just the language, but have Visual Studio.NET IDE as well. VS.NET is light years ahead of Project Builder and Interface Builder. But I love the MAC OS as compared to the Windows OS. Just wish the development tools were up to par with offerings in the Windows world.

PS. Don't flame me unless you've used Visual Studio.NET extensively, because if you haven't used it you really don't know what you're missing. There's not a single feature that PB and IB have to offer that isn't trumped by Visual Studio.NET many times over, except for one: VS Studio.NET Enterprise Edition set me back about a $1,000 per copy, while PB and IB is FREE. God bless Apple for that one!

[mrburri]

snerdini - What do you mean PHP isn't scalable?

PHP is also not very scale able, in relation to Java. Java can run the total range of environments for any organisation or corporation. From PDA's / Mobile Devices out in the field (J2ME). To Laptops and Desktops using GUI based solutions (J2SE). To Huge Clustered servers all run, connected and enabled by Java (J2EE). This total interconnected Java Platform solution can only done via Java, and possible the .NET (But you already know were I stand on .NET) .

PHP is a server scripting language, with limited Mobile Device capacity. So in relation to Java it is not as portable, and scalable as a Java Based solution.

PHP has made no inroads into fortune 500 companies. Because it could never be used to endlessly scale up as a true OOP language like Java can. In fortune 500 companies, Java is King.

Java capacity to reuse existing programming logic via OOP, continues to amaze me.

I started with PHP, that why I still say it is a fun and easy language to learn. But with Java, I came to see that there are better, faster, and more cost effective ways to do things.

Do not take it personal. All languages have limits.

[snerdini]

Originally posted by mrburri:
Do not take it personal. All languages have limits.

Sorry bout that. Didn't mean to imply that I was upset, I really just wanted to know why you posted that.

Question for you: is Java better for server side apps than it is for those dang Java applets? I haven't had good experience with them; they seem to be slow and buggy. Perhaps I've just had bad luck in the ones that I've downloaded, but they left a bad taste in my mouth for Java in general.

Right now we use ColdFusion at work, I know alot of people have a problem with it, but it does what we need to do perfectly. I guess what I'm asking is: Should I invest the time to learn Java? I'm currently learning C (then on to Obj-C for Cocoa). While I'm in there up to my eyeballs should I take a look at Java as well (for our web apps)?

[mrburri]

Apples were part of Java v1 most of which is not deprecated and no longer part of the Java API. Applets were a good idea in theory but in practice the limitations of the internet and poor browser support for applets lead most people to have a negative view on Java. Thus Applets cannot be found anywhere anymore on the net. Bar those silly little web-pages, that have flaming text applets on them.

As for Cold Fusion, Did you know that Cold Fusion MX, both the server and the IDE are written in Java. Believe it or not. Do you also know that Cold Fusion is going through an explosion, of growth because, Macromedia, has worked very hard to allow CF developers to harness Java components like Java Beans, and Java Servlets. Macromedia has made deals with IBM and Sun Micro system, to promote CF as a development tool for Java powered web-site. Allowing companies that have Java back-end's, hook those Java systems into CF, thus drastically reducing cost of development and maintenance for those companies.

I used to be very anti-CF But I had a teacher demo to me how CF can be used to rapidly build CF applications using Java. So once I gain my Java certification. I will be going to get trained in CF.

Well back to you. If you know CF then the switch to Java is not only natural, but vital if you wish to take full advantage CF into the future.

If you have more questions just post them here and we can all help. If you are looking for a good book on Java. I can give you some of my recommendations.

ps. CF will not hook with .NET macromedia knows were the IT industry is going and that place is as far from MS as it can get.

[clarkgoble]

I have to second the wish that Apple's development tools were up with Microsoft's. Heavens, Project Builder isn't even on par with Visual Studio 6.0, let alone Visual Studio.NET.
One thing that would help Apple is making it easier for us developers to code for them. I honestly wanted to switch my development over from Visual Studio. The majority of my coding is ANSI stuff with only a little interface work, so I figured it would be no big deal.

BZZ. Their debugging tools are nowhere near as good as Microsoft's. I'm now halfway switched over to VS.NET and am pleasantly surprised by it. Even VB.NET, while causing causternation to Visual Basic folks, is a pretty nice language. (Not as good as C#, but basically VB reinterpreted through a Java lens)

Having said that though I think I'd stick with my initial comments about PHP and Java. It really depends upon the market you are going after. If you think in your area you'd have better luck with Linux or Unix go with PHP and Java. If you already have a lot of MS experience and are heading that way, then go C#. But then you will be limited in using a PC (despite what others said - developing C# or ASP on a non-Windows machine is silly)

So if you want to leverage your Mac and have some Mac skills, I'd go more the Unix path. Those skills are valuable in many environments. Further, as I mentioned, if you know Java picking up C# will be a joke. And PHP, while not good for scalability and limited in scope, is very good for some tasks, as a look at Source Forge will attest. Yahoo just shifted over a lot of code to PHP as well. Perl is always helpful to know as well, if only to be able to read other peoples code. (Coding in Perl is not something I like doing)


BTW - if you are going to be developing in VS.NET, you really ought to join MSDN. It'll get you all the MS software for fairly cheap, along with all the OSes and so forth. It really pays off as well and give a lot of online documentation. Yeah it is pricey. I think we ended up paying $1300 or $1400. But it ends up paying for itself fairly qucikly.

[el_humpo]

I write stuff in PHP all the time, and I really think it gets a bad rap on the scaleability front. I mean, it might be a bit more limited than Java, but are your apps really going to be serving 100k users daily?

PHP is a nice, clean, C style language. And you can write function libraries and re-use code without having a fully OOP design. Remember, UNIX scales!

But the best part of PHP (and Java, for that matter) is that you are not tied to any one platform. You can run your apps on whatever the client/employer wants. And you don't have to pay out the nose just to get started.

[mrburri]

el_humpo is totally right with his:

PHP is a nice, clean, C style language. And you can write function libraries and re-use code without having a fully OOP design

I myself build stuff in PHP, it was my first ever language. My comments in regards to PHP in relation to Java is more based on coming from PHP to Java, and being just blown away the the logic of java.

I would say that at the end of the day. All languages that you may be able to employ will perform 90% of all your needs at any time. The core guide to selecting a development language is more based on your comfort and level of familiar then any innate superiority of any select language.

My core reason for selecting Java over other languages, is that:

• Huge employment market day over day there are more Java jobs then another language. I need to eat.
• Java is a modern OOP language, it has problems but it's alive and constantly being made better
• Largest development community of any language
• It's cool - just try it
• Java support on OSX comes strait out of the box
• Apple is a strong member of the Java community, constantly giving back to the development of Java. ensuring we will remain in favour with Sun and the Java Community

But remember kiddies - stay away from uncles bill's candy store. Contains more then what's listen on the side of the box.

[el_humpo]

Originally posted by mrburri:
el_humpo is totally right with his:

I myself build stuff in PHP, it was my first ever language. My comments in regards to PHP in relation to Java is more based on coming from PHP to Java, and being just blown away the the logic of java.

Thanks! Of course, you should use the language that models how you think best; one of the hardest parts of programming is translating ideas into code.

I guess I just think in less abstract chunks - commands and functions rather than methods and objects. While OOP has its place, I find it tiresome to deal with 'everything is an object' languages.

As you may have noticed in my reply to this thread, I don't like representing SQL result sets as objects instead of arrays. In this case, an object doesn't have any advantages over more basic data structures. In PHP, I can use objects when its appropriate, but nothing stops me from dropping down to basic C-style data types.

[mrburri]

On the merits of OOP versus procedural languages. The trend is towards OOP, as the major model for all software development.

OOP becomes ever more relevant as systems get ever more complex, and a way to abstract that complexity, is to allow developer not to deal with low level computer or networking logic via OOP.


I would recommend that everyone, to get a firm grip on OOP, and to think in OOP when programming. I am still struggling with many OOP concepts but I can see clearly the benefits of it over procedural thinking.

All new languages are OOP, Java, C# and Ruby, and those languages that were originally procedural, are beginning extended to handle OOP natively.