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mrburri · 07:05 PM

are written in Java and are non-native.

I am so tired about these people who keep kicking Java. How will people ever take Java serious even even when those who develop in Java, do not have any faith in it, as a language or as a development platform?

Java is native - just because it more portable to other platforms and runs in a VM (which is common for many modern languages - even C# run's in a VM, no one will ever claim it is not native to Windows). Just because a language run's in a VM does not does not make it make a non-native language, it just makes it better in many ways.

Also since Java 1.4.1 Apple has made Java swing components the same as the Cocoa GUI elements, making Java app look super smooth, and outside of poor user interface design of many Java applications (Windows Java Developers, mostly - who have no clue about good interface design), Java applications are as polished as any cocoa application under 1.4.1 on the Macintosh.

I have even started a project under my company name - that will seek to develop Java Swing applications that will strictly follow Apple's Interface Guidelines. I want the the world to see Java as a viable client-side solution for the Macintosh.

yeslekmc · Dec 15, 2002, 10:07 PM

OK... I'll bite. Show me some examples of your client-side JAVA apps. And then tell me what IDE you use to write them in. Just wondering!

mrburri · Dec 16, 2002, 05:25 AM

OK... I'll bite. Show me some examples of your client-side JAVA apps. And then tell me what IDE you use to write them in. Just wondering!

I use NetBeans. As fo my first Java app you will have to wait for that one.

My point is still standing Java is cool, and people need to give Java a break.

absmiths · Dec 16, 2002, 10:16 AM

Yeah, I write server applications in Java and it rocks! We have deployment platforms for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux, and I never had to make any platform modifications in a server with over 54 modules.

Java usually gets a bad rap because it is interpreted (pseudo), but with the advent of runtime compiling it is much less of a concern. The Java GUI can be slow but that is usually an artifact of naive design.

mrburri · Dec 16, 2002, 11:13 PM

Absolutely right absmiths. I think people need to hear the success stories that Java brings by the developers who live and breath Java. Not the constant whining of people who remember Java v1 Applets, and ditch all of what Java has now become that of a stable enterprise, solution with a huge developer community and an industry standard.

Tell us your Java success stories!

<rant>
I think and would love to see some Java advertising in the media, to counter the .NET hype. I live in Australia and all you see is .NET everything. I even had a guy tell me here that in a year or two, ALL web-site will be moving to .NET and will will only have youDomain.NET in the future.

I will become a farmer when that dark day comes upon us.
</rant>

Self promotion skill's is something I think we seriously lack in the non-MS world.

IUJHJSDHE · 02:48 PM

Wevah · Dec 17, 2002, 05:42 AM

Removed: I misread what I was replying to, making my reply pretty silly...

Chuckit · Dec 18, 2002, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by mrburri:
Java is native - just because it more portable to other platforms and runs in a VM (which is common for many modern languages - even C# run's in a VM, no one will ever claim it is not native to Windows). Just because a language run's in a VM does not does not make it make a non-native language, it just makes it better in many ways.

Java uses bytecodes. It isn't raw executable code that my machine can read. It has to be interpreted for my machine. Therefore, it is not native to my machine. I don't see how that can be disputed.

Also, I have never seen a Java app that ran as fast as a comparable non-Java app. Some are less cumbersome than others, but very few are even up to par.

Which isn't to say that Java is a bad language. It's got a lot of nice things going for it. I certainly don't think it should be abandoned. It just isn't the miracle child that cures AIDS.

mrburri · 02:17 AM

Java uses bytecodes.

True - Java is bytecodes, yet it is this for valid Computer Science reasons. The thing I object to is the "Perception" held my many that Java does not belong on the Macintosh. As if Java is not a real language. As soon as people read that an application is made in Java, people just tend to block objective assessment of an applications capabilities.

As for the issue of speed. Java is not as slow as people make out to be. Yes it is slower. However in the age of gigahertz machines, the use VM languages, is more then compensated for. Even on my weak little 350mhz machine it does a fine job.

Also in a world of ever more complex computing problems, Java protects, the developer, and the system from development error's unlike any language currently being used. All this protection that Java offers, does slow it down, but the price in speed is small compared to the protective benefits.

The third point is that Java's lack of speed is largely based on peoples use of Java GUI applications. Java GUI applications speed is dependent on the the VM and the developers skill in implementing the GUI in Swing. It is not that Java is slow, rather poor implementation and development of Swing GUI applications creates the impression of Java applications being slow. Their are a few projects that are currently aimed at offering options to Java Swing mostly based on XML.

Java also is that it is under constant evolution, and those that control that evolution of Java are well aware of its limitations and are constantly seeking to improve it. Combined with industry pressure, and the fact that Java is on the verge of being Open Sourced, we shall see Java explode beyond just being a IT industry phenomenon to being ever more powerful toll.

People need to stop their biases, that is clearly not based on the fact's at hand. I speak as someone who hatted Java in the past. It was not until I became aware of how beautiful the Java language is, and how it is a core element in the future of Programming, IT, and Apple Computers.

It just isn't the miracle child that cures AIDS.

But neither is Java the illness of the world. And it offers to cure many and even most developers needs. I hope that Macintosh people learn to appreciate, Java for what it is - a stable - powerful development language with a huge industry based community, that deserves every developers attention.

itai195 · Dec 18, 2002, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by mrburri:

But neither is Java the illness of the world. And it offers to cure many and even most developers needs. I hope that Macintosh people learn to appreciate, Java for what it is - a stable - powerful development language with a huge industry based community, that deserves every developers attention.

One thing you didn't mention is that Java has become the darling of higher education CS programs. Many students learn Java in school now, and many (like me) leave school wanting primarily to work with Java.

mrburri · Dec 18, 2002, 03:47 AM

the darling of higher education CS programs

The reason why? Because Java is a brilliant first language. It has simple logical syntax. It is clearly object orientated. Java allows students to learn a real world language, that teaches good programming practice, that will lead to a real world employment, when the student graduates.

That is why I would whole heartedly recommend Java for anyone wanting to getting into programming on any platform.

Gul Banana · Dec 18, 2002, 06:53 AM

Glad as I am that Java was not my first language, you are correct. Java is a very good thing now that hardware is fast enough to support high-level languages which require significant runtime support. Still not my language of choice, but it certainly has lots of advantages.

int69h · Dec 18, 2002, 07:45 AM

Java uses bytecodes. It isn't raw executable code that my machine can read. It has to be interpreted for my machine. Therefore, it is not native to my machine. I don't see how that can be disputed.

Ah but it CAN be disputed...

Have a look at GCJ.

From the main page:

GCJ is a portable, optimizing, ahead-of-time compiler for the Java Programming Language. It can compile:

* Java source code directly to native machine code,
* Java source code to Java bytecode (class files),
* and Java bytecode to native machine code.

Also, I have never seen a Java app that ran as fast as a comparable non-Java app. Some are less cumbersome than others, but very few are even up to par.

In many cases, Java is faster than native instructions especially when dealing with a long running process. Runtime optimization is far more powerful than compile time optimization.