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DaGuy · Mar 17, 2003, 12:09 PM

Apple has made great efforts in making Java on MacOSX a first class citizen. So I don't undrstand why Sun's website has few references to MacOSX and why their tools are available for three platforms. Isn't the whole point to have Java be portable? They don't go by 100% Java themselves. If they did, all certifified Java JVMs should be treated as one and the same. For some tools this isn't an issue but try messing with the J2EE ref servers, deployment tools etc. and you run into inmediate headaches.

Just wanted to see what your take was on this matter.

itai195 · Mar 18, 2003, 12:50 AM

Sun is blinded by their Microsoft hatred. It's unfortunate that they're almost doing as much to undermine Java as Microsoft is. On the other hand, I think Apple is quite committed to making OS X a great platform for Java development and deployment, so we can at least be glad about that.

joltguy · Mar 18, 2003, 06:47 AM

It is true that Sun is very much driven by a man who hates Microsoft with everything he's got. He's got good reason to. Microsoft really screwed them over! MS licensed Java from Sun and for the first time in the history of that corrupt company, they appeared to be playing fair for the greater good. Turns out it was the ole "wolf in sheep's clothing" bit. As a legit licensee they got to see the Java internals. After collecting all the IP they needed, they purposely tainted the Windows implementation knowing full well that it would violate their agreement with Sun. After all was said and done, MS stole all the best parts of Java and repackaged them as C# (how revolutionary). So yeah, I'd say McNealy has earned the right to hate Microsoft more than most people. Sorry for the rant, this is just one topic that gets my blood boiling.

Java truly is a great language, and the fact that Apple has devoted so many resources to making sure they have the best implementation makes me very proud as a Mac user. I agree with the first poster that Sun should promote/reward this kind of dedication to the platform. OS X offers Java developers so many advantages that Sun would do well to point upstart developers towards it. Ease of development and deployment will convert mild interest into fierce dedication. Apple has done their part (and more)... it's time Sun gave a little something back.

Arkham_c · Mar 18, 2003, 08:56 AM

I've grown to like Java quite a bit. I think the situation with Apple is not that bad -- the real problem is third party products like WebLogic and Sun's Java One J2EE server. We need those on OSX for it to really make a dent in the enterprise.

I don't care so much about Sun's IDE -- there are plenty of good tools for writing Java on OSX. I think Eclipse is nice, but it's too slow on my iBook/600, so for now I'm sticking with BBEdit.

What other Sun products for java are missing on OS X? Any that you want?

DaGuy · Mar 18, 2003, 10:32 AM

The enterprise market is where Java weights in heavily. On the desktop, Java just leads to some clunky and slow applications. MacOSX has made the desktop experience a bit more pleasant and integrated. But the experience is far from being at par with native technologies. This is not Apple's fault and they should be commended for trying to improve it. In any event, this is not where the money is.

Java without full J2EE support is severely crippled. Just download the J2EE SDK and see how far you go. Not very far ah? This is heartbreaken given Apple's level of efforts.

Apple's J2EE strategy seems rooted on WebObjects which is a great product but it presents a pretty steep learning curve to the typical Java Developer. It also lags in its EJB support i.e., no support for EJB 2.x, since it realies on OpenEJB which I believe is 1.x.

This tells me that Apple is a non player in J2EE and that the WebObjects deal is just a way of providing some Java functionality to exisiting WebObject customers who are being pulled by the Java gravitional force.

My wish list is simple. It's just one item:

1. Have MacOSX visibly supported on Sun's web site at same level as Solaris, Linux or Windows.

That alone is the validation that Java on MacOSX needs. This should be the goal.
That site is the mother ship for all them Java Developer dudes.

MacOSX is FREAKING AWESOME DEVELOPMENT PLATFORM it dissapoints me to see Sun give us the cold shoulder.

type_r503 · Mar 18, 2003, 11:34 AM

Sun has bigger fish to fry. $3 stock price says it all. Intel has done a lot of damage to Sun over the past year. Apple will probably end up buying Sun for easy entry into the Enterprise.

type R

Angus_D · Mar 18, 2003, 12:02 PM

Apple doesn't care about Enterprise, apparently.

DaGuy · Mar 18, 2003, 02:03 PM

I think they care i.e., Xserve, Xserve RAID, MacOSX Server. Those are visible steps that they want to put their foot in the door. Also, heavyweights such as Oracle and Sybase already have or are in the process of porting their flagship products.

J2EE is not dead in MacOSX i.e., JRUN4, JBoss, Pramati application servers. But all that seems to ring a bit hollow without a strong visible show of support from Sun.

I speculate that Apple may have been waiting for 1.4.1 to be complete, in order to start a big public push for Java on MacOSX. Let's see what happens now...

Camelot · Mar 18, 2003, 11:20 PM

Sun don't reference Mac OS X on their Java site because they do not distribute a java implementation for Macs.

Right from the very beginning, Apple have been the sole source for Java on Mac. They take the standard Java distribution from Sun, customize it heavily for the Mac OS, replacing parts with native code for the Mac, and redistributing it.

The problem has always been the lag time between Sun releasing Java versions and Apple customizing it.

The good news is that with the latest Java 1.4.1 Apple have reduced much of the custom code required meaning we should benefit from a faster turnaround on future Java releases.

In order to completely rectify the situation, Apple needs to either promote Java more heavily or drop the dependence on custom engineering of Java releases so that it gets better visibility on Sun's site.

bousozoku · Mar 19, 2003, 05:57 PM

There's still the issue of Mac OS X not having Java 3D. This appears to be some falling out or lack of agreement over licensing.

Are there other things missing?

gralem · Mar 20, 2003, 07:27 AM

I do believe the issue is Apple-based, more than Sun-based. Apple and Sun must be good partners in the Java world for Apple to have complete access to the core java sources. This is how apple has been able to integrate such things as splitting the menubar from the Java UI window and placing it up on top, or having it's own swing look-and-feel (which Apple does not want to go to any other platform).

There are a number of actual enhancements that Apple adds to java for their releases, but either Apple doesn't want the rest of the world to get it (Aqua look-and-feel) or the rest of the world would never use it (menubar on top, instead of in app window). I think that if anything falls in the "usable-by-the-rest-of-the-world" bucket, Apple actually returns that codebase to Sun. I remember hearing of 1.3.1 core Java bugs being fixed by Apple porting it to X.

I believe that Apple is a fairly good Java partner for Sun. Why APPLE turns its back on J2EE is completely beyond me. And I thought there was some hack to get Java3D going on X, but I guess not.

---gralem

bousozoku · Mar 20, 2003, 10:08 AM

Apple has done a lot of work with the Hot Spot JIT compiler to make it more efficient. Recent changes to v1.4.1 have gone back to Sun for integration. Considering how slow v1.4.1 is with my dual 800 and how much of the system Java now takes, I have some doubts about those efficiencies.

As far as look-and-feel goes, each system has a native look-and-feel. You could choose Windows look-and-feel on Mac OS X, but it wouldn't work because it's not available outside Windows.

If you've ever used jGrasp, the IDE from Auburn Univ., you'll remember seeing a standard Mac OS X menu plus Java menus attached to various Windows. It looks a little strange, but still works fine.