[skalie]

Hope this doesn't turn into a rant, but I'm having a less than pleasant experience with a client, maybe one of you more experienced folks has a suggestion on how to overcome the frustration I'm experiencing.

It all started with me wanting to build up a portfolio. I offerred to do a site for an ex-relation (her father used to have something with the mother of my SO) on the cheap, she is an artist, I like her work, her content makes the site look interesting.

She showed me a couple of sites that she thought were nice, I didn't like them, ugly frames, loads of scrollbars. After toying with Flash navigation, I decided to make the whole site in Flash.

All in all, I spent 100's of hours working on the site, and only 50% of that was learning better techniques, but I didn't mind as I needed something nice on my portfolio.

I did make noises about a couple of hundred bucks, without hosting, enough to cover some iBook ram I'd just bought, but I realised that it was just a token amount, and I would be expected to do updates, so I offerred her another deal, you pay for a better hosting package which I can use (php, mysql, mega-gig) and I place the site on it for free. She's still only out 150 or so bucks a year, including domain name. I even made noises about eventually doing a content management system.

Then it came to final release day, I get an e-mail "I find the mixture of Dutch and English somewhat on the sloppy side so I have made up Dutch and English versions of the site and sent them as attachment" (the titles were in Dutch, the site English).

I e-mailed her back "So you're wanting English, Dutch and German versions of you're site?" (She'd mentioned wanting a German version, because Germans have money)

Her answer was "Yes, although I have no German version yet, it will take me a couple of days"

Sure enough the German text version came as an e-mail attachment the next day.

Now this was just before I was going to put her site live, the domain name and hosting had been organised. The site is a collection of seven .swf movies, just thinking about the amount of time I would need to spend, changing buttons, rollovers had me stunned. Oh and she included seven more paintings to add to a new catagory.

So I slowed down, the site has already served it's purpose for me in development stage, I found myself a job as a flash developer, to be honest I was a little bit peeved at her attitude.

I ended up about six weeks later releasing the site, english only version. The finished site immediately led to me getting some more work.

I had trouble configuring the e-mail (not my forte) on the site so was forwarding her mail to the address on her site to me and her hotmail address while I figured out the control panel that comes with the hosting.

Lo and behold, I get 12 or so e-mail from search engine placement scam sites, then I get an e-mail from her "My brother has some handy tips for the site.........", he works in multimedia somewhere and apparently has heard about meta-tags.

OK, here's the crunch, I didn't receive one single thank you during the whole episode. As far as I'm concerned the site has served my purpose, a improvement in my Flash skills, and work. Unfortunately my payment of hosting involves updates, which I have a seriously good mind to redirect towards her brother, "Here's a tip, let you're brother make a German version of your site" 99% chance he won't be able to, the included movies seem immune to .swf decompilers as far I can tell.

So what do I do? Get someone to whisper in her ear that she better turn up on my doorstep with a bottle of Champers and a Bouquet of roses quick smart?

Guess the lesson is, if you do something for free, you can expect to be taken for granted.

Phew, that did indeed turn into a rant, good to get it off my chest.

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by skalie:
Guess the lesson is, if you do something for free, you can expect to be taken for granted.

So true unfortunately. By doing it for free, she suddenly assumes that it's easy for you/doesn't take you much time.

I feel for your situation. If I was in your place right now, I would probably try and speak directly to her bro. Keep a copy of the site for yourself - and give him the flash files to do any any work on it as needed. You said you have other jobs now, so the sooner you shake this one, the better.

[skalie]

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
give him the flash files to do any any work on it as needed

You're saying that I should be even more generous?

[-Q-]

I guess it depends on your definition of generous.

If you want to continue maintaining site updates for free and not getting any compensation or appreciation for it, then by all means, keep the files and keep putting yourself through this. Just don't expect any sympathy.

I'd say to hell with it and send the files off. Wash your hands of the whole affair. You've already gotten a gig from the site and you can still use it in your portfolio. Be done with it.

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by skalie:
You're saying that I should be even more generous?

Well, it's not like you are going to lose any money by giving them to him. You're barely making any money off it in the first place. I just think it will make it easier for you to move on and spend all of your time on your new jobs. IMO of course.

[ameat]

i agree with giving up the files...naturally keep them, and make sure to host a local version of the site yourself for portfolio purposes cause you can be sure that the site will go for **** real fast once somebody else can play with it.

what's the worst that can happen? somebody'll steal some actionscript or interface elements? no big deal.

so can we see the site?

and where are you located that you could find a flash dev job?

[redJag]

yeah, ditch the files, ditch the whole messy deal. you have nothing to gain by keeping the files and if you can convince the brother to do the german revision and the updates, you're basically in the clear. just make sure they understand you are keeping a copy of the version you created so there is no legal mess later.

in the future, never tell someone you'll do a site for free unless you know exactly what's involved. and that you know said person fairly well.

and, show us this wicked awesome site

[NeXTLoop]

I agree with everyone else... ditch the site before it gets any worse. I've been in your shoes before and have some away with the same experience. Basically, people have no appreciation for "favors."

I'm a generous person normally, but after getting burned so many times, I don't do "favors."

[skalie]

Boy should I have listened to you guys.

*Update* (rant#2 even longer than the first one)

Was working at my new job (which the aforementioned site helped me get) hadn't signed the contract yet and had caused a little bit of unrest in the working place.

I had asked to be removed from a project because I saw difficulties in the future.

I was designing a demo for a client, the final product will be well smart and super usefull, log in, change some details, logging in sets permissions, adds more navigation etc. Tools used are Flash MX 2004 combined with AMFPHP using a component or two.

Anyway, on a tuesday the person responsible for the design gives me the new colours for the site. I change everything, the demo is quite a few Flash movies, but that's cool, we'll have global style sheets one day. That afternoon, "No, the colours will be this". OK, I change the colours back, five minutes it's done.

Next day, "No, actually the colours will be this" (the colours from the morning before). OK, confrontation, can we wait till just before the demo is to be delivered before setting the final colours? "Colours can always be adjusted" Yes, but we haven't got the style sheets working yet (her job as it goes).

So anyway I dive in and make the best demo possible within my skills, the idea is to sell IT possibilities to a rather old fashioned bunch.

About thursday I have a chat with the chap that's worked there the longest, it was originally a two man shop.

I can't work with *****, it's a difficult project, if we are having such differences in working methods at this stage of the game the project is doomed.

Next thing I know the boss has us all on the table. I'm trying not to make trouble (remember I haven't signed my contract yet) so I'm saying like....our star signs don't match.

"No reason to get removed from a project"

er I have lost respect for her decisions

"Bollocks reason to leave the project"

Anyways, friday I deliver the demo, half an hour before deadline, four hours before the meeting with the client.

I check my e-mail.

I get an e-mail from the lass that I made the site for.

"The credit card payment for the hosting has been revoked, my father forgot that he had given me permission to use his card and has disallowed the payments"

Boy was I livid.

I walked over to a chap in the office who knew the whole story and mentioned to him what had just happened (remember all I wanted as payment for the original was reliable hosting for my cv/portfolio).

I then saw ***** totally rodgering my demo, what are you doing? "Oh there's been a change in the resolution". The layout is flying about the place, buttons and graphics are all over the shop, will be a rush to fix it all before the client arrives, also she is changing the .swf file on the network that the presentor of the demo needs to use.

What are you doing? I ask somewhat stressed.

Meanwhile I send off a very apologetic and frustrated e-mail to the hosting provider. (I eventually sorted it out, and the revoked payment was repaid)

Next thing I know I'm being called into the bosses office, ***** is feeling intimidated. Intimidation on the workfloor, fireable offense.

Holy ****, oops.

The next day I realised what had happenned, understood why she felt intimidated (I was livid, but not with her I had expected more problems with the graphics)

I wrote a hugely apologetic letter to all concerned and apologised to *****.

Boss reads the letter, informs me "incident closed", next monday I get the signed contract.

Phew.

Two days ago the site was removed from the web, my portfolio as well of course.

I e-mail the host.

There's been another chargeback on the account, they're not prepared to host the site any more.

Fine, I'm not upset this time, kind of used to it by now.

I e-mailed the cause of all this trouble yesterday....

Your site is down, they wont host you anymore, you want the site, here's the price $***, you want updates, here's the price $***, you want translations, here's the price $***, you want me to organise the hosting, here's the price $***, you want the .fla files, here's the price $***.

Haven't had a reply yet, but I don't really care.

Perfect ending really.

[skalie]

Oh yeah, I printed out the original rant I posted in this thread wih my hugely apologetic letter.

Thanks Macnn, in a roundabout way you helped save my bacon.

[CobraNT]

Sounds to me like both your 'favors' and your work place need better management. I worked for a marketing firm that was amazing at project management. Before any design tool was ever opened the project was layed out on paper and in rough proofs. With a website, the entire website was layed out in a storyboard type format. The client viewed these story boards and approved all of the designs, colors etc. Once they approved, they signed off on them (which stated it would cost $$ if the change their minds). Once everything was approved we started the actual developement. Maybe you should recommend this type of system to your boss, and take it into consideration for 'favors' you do. I have done many sites for free just to build a name in the industry. There is nothing wrong with this practice, just make sure you define the job before starting.

[skalie]

Yep, CobraNT, I'd heard the "Before any design tool was ever opened" phrase used before on this very forum, good advice indeed.

Pencil and paper and a chat about finances, step one.

Emerged from a shower once to hear a friend of mine saying to a potential client after a lengthy discussion about what work was required......

"Um shall we talk about money now, or do you want me to pay for all this as well?"

[CobraNT]

The client will feel much better about knowing the costs also. Surprises usually don't go over well. If you plan on doing this for a living make sure you always estimate your time accurately also. There is nothing worse than under estimating a job.

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by CobraNT:
There is nothing worse than under estimating a job.

Say it again brother. And again. And again.

Do not underestimate any job - not fun!

[skalie]

update...........

here's the site I designed for the artist, those many moons ago........

http://www.scraf.com/geesje2/index.html

I just recieved an email from her.....

"EAT YOUR HEART OUT"

With this link.

http://www.geesjedu.com

........... I have a feeling that it was a bad move for her to send me that email, I just might get into retribution mode.

[darcybaston]

Where's the German text?



That was extremely childish of her. Oh well, next beer please! I hope you don't let that get to you.

[Big Mac]

I have noticed that non-technical people will try to pour more work on to their IT staff and be disappointed when they are told that the things they are requesting are terrifically time consuming and require sophisticated techniques. I imagine it is because people assume the work is not hard, simply because their computer people are sitting in front of computers rather than doing manual labor grunt work. They will make all sorts of demands, because to them coding and designing does not appear to be that difficult a job. And that's why it only makes sense to establish a pretty detailed contract beforehand. I have come to realize the hard way that trusting people to be honest, just and to do the right thing is naive. There is a strong probability that they will end up defying you, so you'll be glad that you bound them legally to certain terms when it comes time to hire a lawyer.