Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

DaGuy · 02:41 AM

This just open ended commentary about IDEs.
I used Eclipse (on Windows, I have no choice) at work to do Java development and it's actually a pretty solid and usable product. For one, It has very impressive debugging capabilities. The interface is not at all shabby either. For this product is all about producitivity.

I have not used XCode (I'll have to wait a few more weeks for that) but from what I can read about it and the pictures that are posted, it seems to me that Apple could have adopted Eclipse and customize it with all the XCode features (zero link, predictive compile etc.) while at the same time fitting pretty well into the main stream Java development culture.

From a naive point of view, It seems to me that XCode want's to be there just in case CodeWarrior decides to drop out. But is that a way to propel a new wave/era of development tools? Nothing against XCode (again I haven't used it) but I just don't see anyone posting any really enthusiastic comments about it or how much they love it. The Eclipse crowd on the other hand can't stop bragging about their IDE (similar to mac users about their favorite platfom) and I must say with good reason.

Throw in your two cents, I wan't to gauge the mood out there.

Catfish_Man · Oct 9, 2003, 11:51 AM

Eclipse could beat the **** out of XCode with both hands tied behind its back if it weren't so slow on Macs (they're working on this for 3.0). I really really wish Apple would take a couple dozen pages out of Eclipse's book for their dev tools.

PBG4 User · Oct 9, 2003, 12:05 PM

The fact that only paying ADC members are the only ones that can use XCode will also delay reviews / commentary on the product.

I personally can't wait until 10/24 to see what XCode adds to Project Builder. I am a beginning level programmer using bluej for Java and PB / GCC to do my C stuff for school. I am also teaching myself Cocoa / ObjC using the "Cocoa for Dummies" book. After that I will tackle C++.

My opinion is that other IDEs will have a hard time competing against "free" unless they have heaps and heaps of capabilities that Apple doesn't provide with XCode / PB.

Catfish_Man · Oct 9, 2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by PBG4 User:
The fact that only paying ADC members are the only ones that can use XCode will also delay reviews / commentary on the product.

I personally can't wait until 10/24 to see what XCode adds to Project Builder. I am a beginning level programmer using bluej for Java and PB / GCC to do my C stuff for school. I am also teaching myself Cocoa / ObjC using the "Cocoa for Dummies" book. After that I will tackle C++.

My opinion is that other IDEs will have a hard time competing against "free" unless they have heaps and heaps of capabilities that Apple doesn't provide with XCode / PB.

Eclipse is free.

Rickster · Oct 9, 2003, 01:57 PM

Xcode is free, too -- or rather, it will be when it's released later this month. PBG4 User is pointing out that prerelease versions of XCode have only been available to ADC Select and Premier members, so you won't see much in the way of reviews until after October 24th.

PBG4 User · Oct 9, 2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
Eclipse is free.

I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

Rickster is correct in that I was pointing out the fact that only a handful of people have been allowed access to XCode. I have Panther on order so I'll be able to use XCode for the last month of classes.

geekwagon · Oct 9, 2003, 10:09 PM

Project Builder is pretty borked for any kind of serious Java development. It is really crashy and the debugger is not much fun to use. The incredibly long "indexing" phase everytime you start a new project is kind of annoying too. XCode the brief moments I tried it seems better, but it still isn't as nice for code-generation/completion and debugging as a java-specific IDE such as Eclipse, or my personal favorite IntelliJ Idea.

On the other hand, Project Builder makes creating mac-compatible double clickable jar files really easy, where it is usually a few extra steps in other IDEs. And xCode looks like it makes it a lot easier to use Interface Builder to create your interface in Cocoa and tie it to application logic written in Java.

hseikaly · Oct 10, 2003, 11:36 PM

i really like eclipse, i use it everyday, both the mac os x version and the windows version... the mac os x version is actually not bad, it runs fairly fast (1.25 G4) and it has all the features of a commercial IDE.... and its free!

I have yet to use XCode, but i'm excited about the predictive compiler and other goodies built in... I'm just worried if it will be too Mac OS X oriented (which i think it will be) or will it really be a nice Java IDE (which i don't think it will be)... we will see

coolmacdude · Oct 11, 2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by PBG4 User:
using bluej for Java

Why would you use bluej over PB? I've used both and would never go back to bluej.

PBG4 User · Oct 12, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Why would you use bluej over PB? I've used both and would never go back to bluej.

Because I can instantiate an object and test methods by sending test values by simply right-clicking on the object. I haven't found this kind of testability in PB. If I'm missing please point it out.

coolmacdude · Oct 17, 2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by PBG4 User:
Because I can instantiate an object and test methods by sending test values by simply right-clicking on the object. I haven't found this kind of testability in PB. If I'm missing please point it out.

No you are correct, bluej is the only app I know of that has this feature. I just find the general interface to be ugly and limited compared to PB.

Also most of my stuff involves heavy use of inheritance which doesn't really work so well with that method of testing.

Arkham_c · Oct 18, 2003, 08:29 AM

I've been trying Oracle's JDeveloper on my iBook the past two days for J2EE development, and so far I'm very impressed. It will create all the interfaces for you, write out the XML files, etc.

It also supports web services (my current project requires this) and will create your WSDL for you if you tell it which methods you want to publish.

It seems more responsive than Eclipse (my biggest complaint against an otherwise-excellent IDE).

If you want to try it, the dev preview is free here:

http://oracle.com/start/apple/thankyou.html

Kibon · Oct 18, 2003, 03:33 PM

I'm interested to see if anyone has checked out Netbeans (http://www.netbeans.org/) as a Java IDE.

Our version of Codewarrior at the University doesn't catch mistakes until the compile stage, while Netbeans pretty much does it as you're typing. I'm a beginner at coding, so Netbeans tends to yell at me a lot for making mistakes in my code.

teknologika · Oct 26, 2003, 03:50 AM

After installing XCode I was REALLY dissapointed to find this in the release notes:

Code completion is not supported for Java or CocoaJava

This would not be so bad except that in the XCode session that is available on ADC TV they explicitly stated that "Java is not currently supported but will be when Panther is released" (or something similar).

Talk about java being a second class citizen to Objective C on the mac.

waz · Oct 26, 2003, 07:21 AM

After using (and being amazed by) Eclipse for about 6 months I decided to check out IDEA from Intellij (http://www.intellij.com) and see why so many folks swore by it.

WOW. It rocks. Highly recommended.

stew · Oct 27, 2003, 09:06 AM

How about non-Java development? I am currently working in PB using C++, C and ObjC. Can I do that in Eclipse too? I heard a lot of good things about Eclipse, and if 10.3 forces me to leave PB behind anyway (it won't be missed...), I could just as well use the Eclipse instead of XCode, that way I'd use an IDE that works on any OS.

PBG4 User · Oct 27, 2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by stew:
How about non-Java development? I am currently working in PB using C++, C and ObjC. Can I do that in Eclipse too? I heard a lot of good things about Eclipse, and if 10.3 forces me to leave PB behind anyway (it won't be missed...), I could just as well use the Eclipse instead of XCode, that way I'd use an IDE that works on any OS.

netbeans can work with different languages (according to its website). It is free as well.

stew · Oct 27, 2003, 02:27 PM

Last time I tried NetBeans on my iBook it was very slow. Eclipse seems faster.

ss1 · Oct 28, 2003, 07:02 AM

Intelli J IDEA is the best IDE i've used thus far for Java devlopment and has wicked Refactoring support that I've ever seen! I initally ran a pirate copy of it for a bit, but after seeing how damn good it was I payed the $70 for the Student licence.

I can't wait for version 4, which will introduce GUI building tools into the IDE as well. It will make JBuilder look pants and Eclipse incomplete for refactoring.

ss1.