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besson3c · Jan 11, 2010, 03:36 PM

A number of college/university web courses (including advanced ones) involve Flash and Dreamweaver as tools used in the classroom. Why is this? I know that some courses are designed to teach concepts rather than apps, but in this case I don't really see how Flash can be used to convey concepts useful for designing modern web sites or web apps since it is so unique in having a stage, timeline, etc. Actionscript is very Javascript-like, but in teaching Actionscript you don't really get any of the so-called Web 2.0 concepts such as database connectivity/generating dynamic content, content management, etc. I know that other courses are more vocational in their approach, but the number of websites that are 100% Flash-based are decreasing as this falls out of vogue. At least, this is my perception...

I know that heavy Flash use in these web-related courses is pretty common. I know people in a few different universities where Flash is taught in this fashion. As far as Dreamweaver goes, I suspect that its WYSIWYG editing capabilities are utilized. Both Flash and Dreamweaver have their uses, but wouldn't getting students to write some sort of "hello world" blog or something be far more useful and applicable to today's world of developing dynamic websites rather than a collection of static pages?

As far as languages go, I don't know about the Windows side, but it seems like a MVC (model/view/controller) programming style is where it's at these days. Ruby on Rails is all about MVC, and the PHP toolkits that are used for creating popular web-based PHP apps are as well. Wouldn't using something like RoR and CakePHP or CodeIgniter or something to create a simple dynamic site be a far more useful thing to put at the center of curriculum?

Am I completely out-to-lunch, or are many of these courses as I've described, and should this change?

Chuckit · Jan 11, 2010, 03:50 PM

Writing blog software would be completely out of place in any design course. To be clear, what are you talking about, exactly? Computer science curricula that force Flash for all courses? Web design curricula that include Flash classes?

besson3c · Jan 11, 2010, 03:58 PM

Those general, liberal arts web design courses, I think...

I don't know, where would one find those courses anyway? I know they exist, but I don't always know what departments you are likely to find them in. Why would you teach a graphic designer how to develop Flash sites anyway? Wouldn't that time be better spent teaching them other stuff?

Chuckit · Jan 11, 2010, 04:10 PM

Because it's something you're likely to be asked to do as a designer for the Web. From what I've seen, they're usually in the graphic design departments, though sometimes they're put under computer science but treated as a separate track from the computer science degrees. They tend not to be part of the more programming-focused normal CS curriculum. That's my impression, anyway.

besson3c · Jan 11, 2010, 04:22 PM

Well, I don't really know what Computer Information Systems falls under, but it kind of sounds like Informatics or something in between graphic design and CS, but here is an example course that addresses what I was referring to:

https://wwwapps.ivytech.edu/cor3/v/9...pbB0ToFv3KcT5E

At my old university, Informatics was its own degree program, but it attracted people who were neither graphic designers or CS majors (although the CS and Informatics department merged sometime while I was there). I suspect these sorts of programs are fairly common now.

Besides, I'm not really sure what your basis is in your claim that graphic designers are asked to develop Flash websites.

Chuckit · Jan 11, 2010, 05:04 PM

You're really questioning the idea that Web designers do Flash work?

besson3c · Jan 11, 2010, 05:27 PM

I'm questioning the value of this skill set in the world of work, and the resources it would require to teach this in a classroom at the expense of other subject matter.

Chuckit · Jan 11, 2010, 05:43 PM

Eh, Web designers are asked to do Flash work far more often than computer scientists are asked to write linked list implementations.

besson3c · Jan 11, 2010, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Eh, Web designers are asked to do Flash work far more often than computer scientists are asked to write linked list implementations.

Invalid point. One is a vocational task, the other is a CS concept in a study that teaches concepts and not vocational tasks.

Still, your point is a good one. If web design is something that graphic designers actually need and a course wants to teach potential job skills, fine. However, like I said, these courses are offered outside of graphic arts/fine arts departments and are billed as full fledged comprehensive web design classes. Why?

Chuckit · Jan 11, 2010, 06:18 PM

So your suggestion is that Web design curricula should include fewer useful skills?

besson3c · Jan 11, 2010, 06:23 PM

Huh? I'm suggesting that classroom time be better allocated to concepts that are more applicable in today's world, and if you are going to offer vocational training (an approach to this class that I actually would *not* recommend), that you teach tools that are in demand.

I would have no problem with Flash if its concepts were transferrable to other aspects of web design/development. The closest you have is Actionscript syntax resembling Javascript, but that's about it.

Chuckit · Jan 12, 2010, 03:27 AM

So you don't agree with teaching HTML because it is only applicable when you're working in HTML or what? There are lots of Web technologies (such as HTML, CSS and Javascript) that are only applicable in the places where they are used. I don't see how these are any worse to teach than Flash, aside from the fact that Flash sucks. Ditto for a graphic design curriculum that teaches how to use Illustrator. I mean, it's not like these are the only thing the courses are teaching — they're just part of a well-rounded education in the tools of the field as they exist nowadays.

andi*pandi · Jan 12, 2010, 07:27 AM

There is such a thing as object oriented flash, done with xml and not static. FInd me a course that teaches it and I will take it. The classes I took didn't get much beyond the timeline and code snippets.

Having created an interactive app online with XHTML/CSS/JS, it would have been MUCH simpler to create the interface in flash. However I didn't know the hooks to get the database data into Flash and the developer I was working with was a .Net guy, so we did what we could. A lot of complex css moving things around and hiding and making someone else's canned javascript validate... gah.

Flash has its purposes. It's about using the best tool for the job.

besson3c · Jan 12, 2010, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So you don't agree with teaching HTML because it is only applicable when you're working in HTML or what? There are lots of Web technologies (such as HTML, CSS and Javascript) that are only applicable in the places where they are used. I don't see how these are any worse to teach than Flash, aside from the fact that Flash sucks. Ditto for a graphic design curriculum that teaches how to use Illustrator. I mean, it's not like these are the only thing the courses are teaching — they're just part of a well-rounded education in the tools of the field as they exist nowadays.

You're conflating two approaches to a course - namely providing vocational skills vs. stimulating minds with concepts that can be applied. What I'm saying is that Flash doesn't really seem like your top of the list technology for either. However, I'm more interest in the latter since I generally think it is always pretty silly to teach the application du jour by rote, whatever it is.

besson3c · Jan 12, 2010, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

There is such a thing as object oriented flash, done with xml and not static. FInd me a course that teaches it and I will take it. The classes I took didn't get much beyond the timeline and code snippets.

Having created an interactive app online with XHTML/CSS/JS, it would have been MUCH simpler to create the interface in flash. However I didn't know the hooks to get the database data into Flash and the developer I was working with was a .Net guy, so we did what we could. A lot of complex css moving things around and hiding and making someone else's canned javascript validate... gah.

Flash has its purposes. It's about using the best tool for the job.

Don't you think that in a general purpose "advanced web" course (leaving out Chuckit's valid point about how this course would be well suited for graphic design majors), that while Flash has its purposes like you said, that there is technology that can be a part of the curriculum that conveys concepts more prevalent in real-life work *and* vocationally is in greater demand?

That's my point, not that Flash is useless.

Chuckit · Jan 12, 2010, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

You're conflating two approaches to a course - namely providing vocational skills vs. stimulating minds with concepts that can be applied. What I'm saying is that Flash doesn't really seem like your top of the list technology for either. However, I'm more interest in the latter since I generally think it is always pretty silly to teach the application du jour by rote, whatever it is.

So you are saying that you believe a Web design course should not teach HTML, CSS and Javascript (the Web technologies du jour)? Because I really can't get behind that. These are the tools of the trade. All the theory in the world is useless if you don't sit down and play the piano.

besson3c · Jan 12, 2010, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So you are saying that you believe a Web design course should not teach HTML, CSS and Javascript (the Web technologies du jour)? Because I really can't get behind that. These are the tools of the trade. All the theory in the world is useless if you don't sit down and play the piano.

If you are going to teach a technology, I think that these technologies should be utilized. Teaching a markup language like HTML conveys important concepts *and* can be applied (some of the principles of markup hold true in XML), CSS enforces a separation of logic from display, and Javascript is definitely useful regardless of your middleware language of choice, plus can be used to teach concepts such as object orientation, the DOM, etc.

dedalus · Jan 12, 2010, 05:07 PM

That link you posted refers to a three hour lecture. It’s not like they’re turning a BA programme in graphic design into a Flash course.