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l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 04:51 PM

I'm trying to decide if I should block IE6 & IE7 users from my website. As you can see, they combine to account for only about 5% of my total traffic. I don't think I really have to go into much detail here about why IE sucks. But blocking it would mean saving a lot of time troubleshooting and looking for workaround. My site's layout, cosmetics aside, is the same in every browser except IE7 and older. There are hacks and work-around, but I think it would be so much more productive to send users of ancient browsers to a 'please upgrade your browser' page, rather than spending hours and hours every week searching for hacks and work-around, for 4-5% of my traffic.

On the flip-side, a 5% boost in revenue is a good thing, and that's potentially what I'd be loosing. Although you could argue that some percentage of that 5% WOULD upgrade their browser, or that they already have a better browser on their computer, and would simply use it.

If I do decide to go ahead with the block, the way I would implement it would be by doing a string-match against the user's user agent via JavaScript. Normally I would use PHP, but I hate the idea of having my server do the work of checking hundreds of thousands of user agents just to weed out IE. The whole point is to do less work, not more work. There's some poetic justice in letting IE block itself. And yes, the user could just change their user-agent. BUT anyone with that know-how, is NOT still using IE.

(Note: If you're 'impressed' by my site's traffic, know that these stats are from Awstats. In Awstats, a "hit" is any server request. The index is a hit, 4 images on a page are 4 more hits. CSS and javascript is 4 more hits. I'm not a web millionaire yet)

Eug · Nov 16, 2011, 05:39 PM

Can't really help you here, but what about just blocking IE 6 for now? Does that help you at all? IE 6 came out a decade ago, but IE 7 only came out 5 years ago.

That said, a couple of sites I have visited in the last 6 months have required IE 8 or above, IIRC.

P.S. It's interesting to see that IE only accounts for 27% of your traffic.

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 05:42 PM

Well, I stopped testing for IE6 years ago. But IE7 is still very broken. If I'm going to block 6, I might as well block 7 too.

Also, you say some of the sites you've visited recently have required IE8. How do you know this? Do you use IE6 or IE7?

Eug · Nov 16, 2011, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

Also, you say some of the sites you've visited recently have required IE8. How do you know this? Do you use IE6 or IE7?

Didn't work with Safari.

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 05:45 PM

Oh you mean THAT kind of requirement. That's a whole different type situation. I'm excluding a few broken browsers, vs allowing only a few broken browsers

The massachusetts state health insurance website is like that. It looks like a plain old HTML website, but the buttons and links don't function unless you are using IE. Amazing pain in the ass.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 05:53 PM

Don't actively block. Just don't support it. Make your site do its stuff and if some parts of the site works for IE 6 and 7 so be it. If other parts don't work so be it. Chances are users going to your site who are on IE 6 or 7 can't upgrade on the computer they are using. Chances are good they use something different at home and while at work check the site as well using IE. Sites that block me piss me off. Sites that don't work for me isn't a big deal. You could end up annoying users stuck on IE from also checking at home.

Side note how will the javascript agent detector work on those that use script blockers like noscript in firefox?

Eug · Nov 16, 2011, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

Oh you mean THAT kind of requirement. That's a whole different type situation. I'm excluding a few broken browsers, vs allowing only a few broken browsers

The massachusetts state health insurance website is like that. It looks like a plain old HTML website, but the buttons and links don't function unless you are using IE. Amazing pain in the ass.

Funny you should mention that. My extended health insurance website doesn't block Safari, but linked PDF documents simply don't load if I use Safari. IIRC they don't load properly in Firefox with Adobe's plug-in on Windows either. However, they works perfectly in IE 8.

Originally Posted by Athens

Don't actively block. Just don't support it. Make your site, do your stuff and if some parts of the site works for IE 6 and 7 so be it. If other parts don't work so be it. Chances are users going to your site who are on IE 6 or 7 can't upgrade on the computer they are using. Chances are good they use something different at home and while at work check the site as well using IE. Sites that block me piss me off. Sites that don't for me isn't a big deal.

FWIW, neither IE 7 nor 8 support Windows 2000 or earlier. So, if they're on IE 7, they likely can install IE 8.

Regarding my response above to l008com, I would have almost actually preferred if they had specifically blocked Safari and Firefox, because it took me a long time to figure it was a browser incompatibility as opposed to a congested server.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Funny you should mention that. My extended health insurance website doesn't block Safari, but linked PDF documents simply don't load if I use Safari. IIRC they don't load properly in Firefox with Adobe's plug-in on Windows either. However, they works perfectly in IE 8.

FWIW, neither IE 7 nor 8 support Windows 2000 or earlier. So, if they're on IE 7, they likely can install IE 8.

Sounds like Great West Life, which only works 100% on IE and nothing else. I am glad they don't block because I did figure out the URL changes I had to make to obtain stuff so I can still get through it. Most average users would be messed up though. A notice page saying your browser does not work which still lets you continue anyways leaving it up to the user is the best method I think.

Your assuming when I say can't it is because of Windows 2000 at least with IE 7. When I say can't its because big mean jerks like me limit users as regular non administrative users who do not have sufficient privileges to upgrade or install another browser on the computer they use.

reader50 · Nov 16, 2011, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

Don't actively block. Just don't support it. Make your site do its stuff and if some parts of the site works for IE 6 and 7 so be it. If other parts don't work so be it.

This.

I hate site blocks, from the days when Mac users were often blocked unless we used IE 5. Sometimes not even then. Also, using the user agent string as an access control violates the w3c guidelines - that field is intended for statistics use only.

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 06:33 PM

I tend to disagree with the "don't support instead of block" theory.
Mainly because if my site is going to be all jumbled up and barely recognizable, people will think there is a problem with my website. Especially people who are still using IE7 because they don't know any better. I'd rather drop a little bit of knowledge on the user. And if they're stuck on IE6... what can I say. No internet for you!

Nothing is more annoying than requiring IE on a website as a Mac user. But this ISN'T the opposite of that. I'm not blocking ALL versions of IE to be lazy or spiteful (although the thought had crossed my mind), I'm only blocking specific, very old, very broken web browsers.

Waragainstsleep · Nov 16, 2011, 06:52 PM

Why not route them through a page which points out their browser is old and crappy, they can continue if they want but any problems are likely due to their out of date software.

I'm not sure I buy the argument that those who haven't updated can't though. Those who are sufficiently managed that they don't have enough privileges to install apps should be sufficiently managed to have been auto-upgraded.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 06:54 PM

Notice page, this site will not work right should be enough. Sometimes I have my user agent set to IE 7 for sites that block firefox lol

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep

Why not route them through a page which points out their browser is old and crappy, they can continue if they want but any problems are likely due to their out of date software.

I'm not sure I buy the argument that those who haven't updated can't though. Those who are sufficiently managed that they don't have enough privileges to install apps should be sufficiently managed to have been auto-upgraded.

I manage 160 users who are not allowed to upgrade past IE 7 and this is recent. We only rolled out IE 7 in July. A lot business services and apps designed for IE 6 have not been upgraded. So there is a lot of broken services for a broken browser that limit the ability to upgrade. Company wide over 12000 users and at least half are on IE 7 or still on IE 6 for these reasons.

Eug · Nov 16, 2011, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

Sounds like Great West Life, which only works 100% on IE and nothing else. I am glad they don't block because I did figure out the URL changes I had to make to obtain stuff so I can still get through it. Most average users would be messed up though.

You are correct sir. It is Great West Life. It took me a while before I clued in that it was my browser.

A notice page saying your browser does not work which still lets you continue anyways leaving it up to the user is the best method I think.

That seems like a reasonable compromise.

Your assuming when I say can't it is because of Windows 2000 at least with IE 7. When I say can't its because big mean jerks like me limit users as regular non administrative users who do not have sufficient privileges to upgrade or install another browser on the computer they use.

True dat. IE 8 has only been out 2 years.

besson3c · Nov 16, 2011, 07:19 PM

Before you decide on blocking IE, if you aren't already using a CSS reset library I'd install one and see how it fares. A reset library is good to utilize regardless, but it may clean some stuff up. It obviously won't support stuff not supported properly in IE 6 though without hacks (e.g. inline-block, the float bug, rgba, etc.), but it may make supporting at least IE 7 low dangling fruit and less of a PITA.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

You are correct sir. It is Great West Life. It took me a while before I clued in that it was my browser.

That seems like a reasonable compromise.

True dat. IE 8 has only been out 2 years.

I had a long discussion with a few people at Great West Life about my users not being able to access the site from home on Mac's. At the end of the day they said they don't care. Every one has access to windows. I submitted to upper management we dump them but sadly that is a much more complex thing to do then I thought. The back end of Great West Life, what HR uses to manage for enrollments and account management of the group plan was IE 6 only until last year. It failed to work on IE 7. The payroll company works only on IE 6 and is almost usable on IE 7 with compatibility mode. My payroll guy has to log into terminal server on a old Windows 2000 terminal server to use IE 6 to update payroll since I updated his computer to IE 7. Run into problems like that all the time.

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 07:30 PM

What kind of disaster of a company do you work for?

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 07:39 PM

Larger Multinational company. 12000 employees in Canada and the US. Not sure of the number for Mexico or Europe. I support Vancouver, Edmonton and Seattle. Not going to say which one because its a US company and I report to the US head office. They monitor employees and fire any that speak about the company. But I can tell you that its the same at most large companies when it comes to IT and software updates. Most of the problem comes form Venders.

IE 6 was non standard for a reason, it provided ways of doing things like AD integration no other browser could do in those days when it came out. A lot of what makes it non standard is related to API's for special services. A entire eco system was built around this for corporations. And IE 7 and 8 break those eco systems and venders are slow to upgrade or unable to upgrade or not around to upgrade any more. A lot of internal development was based around IE 6 too which means a lot of internal applications also require resources to be fixed. Since internet is a luxury its sole purpose is business use in a business, spending money on either when the tools still work the way they are supposed to just so employees can enjoy normal looking websites they go to was never a good enough reason to spend the time and resources in fixing the problems with venders and internal applications. Also some venders are on contracts so we couldn't dump them for alternative solutions either. This is why IE 6 has been so dam hard to kill off.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 07:42 PM

Great West Life that Eug and Myself are stuck with is a example of a Vender that has no desire to update and is tied into the IE eco system.

andi*pandi · Nov 16, 2011, 07:42 PM

Lots of corporate-type places are very conservative about upgrades. Our PCs run IE7 as well and won't get upgraded until the SST dept is forced to. A lot of our traffic to our websites also comes from around the world where they are running older versions of everything so we still have to support IE6 and 7. (sigh)

I vote graceful degradation. If it's still readable, but not pretty, it can fly. We've started taking that approach in regards to CSS3 effects etc. It doesn't take too much to do a little holly hacking if need be just to keep a layout but not make everything pixel perfect. There are also lots of libraries out there to help (CSSpie) etc.

Doofy · Nov 16, 2011, 07:47 PM

Block rather than "don't support".

Those 5% of people coming to your site using the shite will see broken everywhere and assume that it's your site (not their shite)... ...and will thus card your business as "cheap, nasty, worthless". We understand "graceful degradation" but your average IE user does not - your average IE user understands "pretty" and "not pretty".

A "this site requires IE8 or a modern browser to function because we're cutting edge lovely and on top of things" will do it.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 07:48 PM

It is a safe bet, the majority of users on IE 6 and 7 are those stuck to it at work. I can't see many people using it at home. Pirated versions of Windows is another area since you have to pass a genuine check to download newer browsers. And of course lack of knowledge that there is something else other then what came with Windows XP or Vista.

I hate supporting IE stuff to no end. But between .net, custom plugins, API's, active directory integration which is a big thing for single sign on authentication IE is going to be the main browser in corporate environments for a very long time.

PS all my users know its IE and not websites when things are broken. I think any decent IT guy will have made that point after tech support calls about things not working right lol.

Athens · Nov 16, 2011, 07:55 PM

You know the user might have wanted the opinions of those who are not developers who would never go to the developer section... yet another good thread moved out of the lounge... Stuff shouldn't be moved out of the lounge automatically....

Doofy · Nov 16, 2011, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

It is a safe bet, the majority of users on IE 6 and 7 are those stuck to it at work. I can't see many people using it at home.

There be a lot of people hitting my Farmville site from work then.

(You've obviously not met "Mrs Stay At Home Mom Age 30+")

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

You know the user might have wanted the opinions of those who are not developers who would never go to the developer section... yet another good thread moved out of the lounge... Stuff shouldn't be moved out of the lounge automatically....

Yeah what the hell!?

Plus, what the hell is web dev doing in the same forum as app dev anyway!?!

Wiskedjak · Nov 16, 2011, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

P.S. It's interesting to see that IE only accounts for 27% of your traffic.

W3 Schools has IE down to 22%.
Browser Statistics

reader50 · 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

Yeah what the hell!?

Plus, what the hell is web dev doing in the same forum as app dev anyway!?!

Web Dev and App Dev were merged years ago because of low traffic in each.

Courtesy of some staff member and the redirect they left in the Lounge, you are legitimately posted in 2 forums.

Athens · 08:28 PM

The redirect will drop lower and lower and lower until its gone... And does not show people in the lounge last replies. Just means having to leave the lounge to go check in the Dev section.

PS, Sorry reader50, I shouldn't have snapped at you.

mduell · Nov 16, 2011, 08:38 PM

In my experience operating a website most users running IE6/7 don't have a choice to use anything newer. If you block them, plan to give up their revenue plus a little more (since they won't use your site from other machines).

Originally Posted by l008com

(Note: If you're 'impressed' by my site's traffic, know that these stats are from Awstats. In Awstats, a "hit" is any server request. The index is a hit, 4 images on a page are 4 more hits. CSS and javascript is 4 more hits. I'm not a web millionaire yet)

1,184,996 / 27% = 4,388,874 hits... is that a daily number? You should really move the static files (images, css/js) to a CDN.

Also, awstats, really? Time to get on the Google Analytics bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Athens

Side note how will the javascript agent detector work on those that use script blockers like noscript in firefox?

The JS wouldn't run and the site would work?

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

1,184,996 / 27% = 4,388,874 hits... is that a daily number?

Nope, it's month-to-date. I wish it was daily.

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 10:40 PM

Doesn't take much js to make this work very well:

Code:

var $user_agent = " " + navigator.userAgent;

if ( $user_agent.search("MSIE 6.0") > 0 )
	{ top.location.href = "http://www.whatsmyip.org/browser_upgrade/?browser=ie6"; }

if ( $user_agent.search("MSIE 7.0") > 0)
	{ top.location.href = "http://www.whatsmyip.org/browser_upgrade/?browser=ie7"; }

l008com · Nov 16, 2011, 11:19 PM

This is my "shitty browser landing page"
Thoughts?

WhatsMyIP.org | Upgrade Your Browser

Doofy · Nov 17, 2011, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by l008com

This is my "shitty browser landing page"
Thoughts?

CSS to bring you a very modern web expirience. But older versions of Microsoft Internet Explorer are not standards-compliant. They are filled with bugs. It is insane for me to continue to support these ancient web browsers in 2011. So, very old and incompatible versions of Internet Explorer are out.

-->

CSS to bring you a very modern web experience. Older versions of Microsoft internet Explorer are not standards-compliant, which makes it very difficult for us to create a modern browsing experience while we support them.

Oh, and might wanna do something with that copyright at the bottom - as it is it looks like FB own the copyright.

Just mucking in. Like it or leave it.

(One question though: Since the only people using IE6/7 are either corporate users who don't need to know their IP or middle-aged women who haven't got a clue what an IP is, why all the bother? lol)

residentEvil · Nov 17, 2011, 06:51 AM

I'm one of your IE6 or 7 hits

A couple of my laptops I have for testing in my various network closets are XP with IE6 and 7. I have your site bookmarked as needed. I don't care what the site looks like, just want the IP to verify everything.

And, google now displays your IP too if you ask it. Just FYI if you didn't know.

andi*pandi · Nov 17, 2011, 09:45 AM

I like Doof's new paragraph, I was about to post about the typo but he sorted it. It's a good idea to be tactful when addressing customers and their stupid browser choices.

When I say "graceful degradation" I mean the corners aren't rounded and maybe things are off by a pixel or two, not it looks like the page exploded.

Eug · Nov 17, 2011, 01:50 PM

IE 6 Funeral: Microsoft actually sent flowers.

l008com · Nov 17, 2011, 03:35 PM

Won't be long now until apple and google are sending flowers to ms's corporate funeral

But anywayyyyyyy. I fixed the typo, but I didn't change the wording. I'm pretty happy with the "meanness" level it's at right now

besson3c · Nov 17, 2011, 03:47 PM

The key part of Doofy's edit, I think, was talking about yourself as "us" rather than "me". "Me" makes the site sound very personal and homey, but pretty amateurish IMHO...