Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

mxcantor · Mar 26, 2001, 05:16 PM

Ok, I got fed up with some of the limitations of apple's finder and so I sat up, went on source forge and started ChikaraX (Chikara == Power in Japanese). The purpose of ChikaraX is to build a customizable, fast, Cocoa version of apple's finder. I just started, and want to call for thoughts, opinions, rants, anything else as this is just starting the planning stage. Check it out at http://sourceforge.net/projects/chikarax
Or, just post your thoughts here as I am curious for some feedback on this idea.

-Max

00101001 · Mar 26, 2001, 11:12 PM

cool, but aren't you still going to be limited to aqua?
What are some of the ideas? Are you going to incorperate
some of the old Finders strengths?

Sounds pretty cool...

mxcantor · Mar 26, 2001, 11:44 PM

aqua doesn't offend me like it used to.

I'd try to do as much that the old finder did as possible, which, using the cocoa api's should be much easier than it was for apple to do it in carbon. Big emphasis on customizability, I'd like for the user to be able to switch on and off as many features as possible, from menu transparency (easy to programmatically change) to the preview pane, to the 'finder' font.

I simply do not have time to do this all myself, and perhaps over the summer I will, I'm really hoping that this will grab people's interest and become a rather large effort.

-Max

Borborygmi · Mar 27, 2001, 01:47 AM

I guess the practicality of this would depend on a few things:

1) Is the Finder 'just' another app, just like S.J. says it is?

2) Can we replace the finder with any program we like and have it boot at runtime?

3) Will this affect any functionality with power management/drivers/etc

4) Will we be able to get filthy rich by recreating the Finder and selling back to Apple

I'm up for it... I'm a new Cocoa programmer, but you learn by doing, eh?

sadie · Mar 29, 2001, 11:39 AM

I'm going to start learning Cocoa soon, and I'd like to join in.

I've always thought that the finder should be able to show a lot more file types. You've got a photoshop document but can't be smegged to open photoshop - so just open a preview in the finder.

Perhaps the preview pane in column view could include a "Bigger" button that brought up a full-size preview of the document. This would include images, pdfs, sounds, movies, etc. The idea of launching a separate "Quicktime player" always seemed silly.

heath_rezabek · Mar 29, 2001, 12:19 PM

fyi, and to help out, i've posted info about ChikaraX to my forum, Galapagos, which is devoted to Mac OS X / Darwin GUI discussion in general.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/galapagos-gui

feel free to check it out, participate, or ransack it for beta testers. =]

------------------
heath m rezabek

Galapagos - OS X / Darwin GUI discussion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/galapagos-gui

tz3gm · Mar 29, 2001, 04:12 PM

this is cool! i like the idea...

Apocalypse · Mar 30, 2001, 09:03 AM

What I like about this idea:
-cocoa: I am annoyed that Apple wrote their OS front-end interface in a partially emulated environment. I am not sure how run time compares between carbon and cocoa when it comes to core graphics but I have a feeling that cocoa should be a little faster with some things (all speculation).
-choice: It is interesting to make an open-source OS X shell to allow the more seasoned users to tinker.

What I don't like:
-replacing the finder: As far as I am concerned there are few limitations to the OS X Finder. I would like a few things to be fixed such as resize-to-fit but that is about it
-preview: in order to do what Sadie suggested, you will have to build-in a decoding module for each file type that you want decoded. That could take years. Besides Apple is already on their way to doing this, you are just starting and have less resources.
-Aqua: Many of your ideas (the best ones, at least, like transparency prefs) are not Finder-defined traits. They are defined by the API and I would laugh if you wanted to re-write that.
-fighting evolution: I think that you are just not used to the new Finder. It has many things that the other didn't and it lacks many that the other had. I think that Apple will round it out over time but you have to be more willing to accept change. It is not a coincidence that they called the sub-system "Darwin" (suddenly Tool's 46+2 popped into my head).

Conclusion:
Have fun but don't expect it to do even half of what you are asking. If you have the time you should do it. It would be an interesting projects. Just remember that you require actual OS modifications to do some of what you are demanding and that cannot be solved with a simple application. There is a way to do some of that but I don't know how it works in OS X (not a kernel extension but something else you can build). Things such as window/menu transparency, drop-shadowing, real-time refreshing, etc. cannot just be over-written. This is something that Apple will eventually write into a NSUserDefaults dictionary and then you could change it (and they will add a prefs pane for it). However, I don't know how you could do that without being able to modify the junction of OS and window server when you aren't actually inside the OS.

That is all speculation, though. If you succeed in this, then you will be very well-liked by some users of the OS who prefer the "Classic Feel"

Jeff.

parallax · Mar 30, 2001, 09:22 AM

I agree with Apocalypse on all accounts.

It will be difficult to pull off, but a great accomplishment if you can.
It seems like it would be easy to do (Just have a window that displays files and their previews, right?) but it's a lot more than that. You'll have to manage things such as moving, renaming, copying, asking if you want to replace files, dragging things to the Trash, integrated support for iDisk, Connect to Server, drag & drop, launching, saving view preferences, trash emptying, ejecting CDs... the list goes on.

Of course, you won't get all of this in the first run through, but things like planning writing an optimized Photoshop decoding/previewing module are just impractical for a small team to think of at this stage.

Don't abandon the project. If nothing else, you'll learn a hell of a lot of Cocoa.

Angus_D · Mar 30, 2001, 03:21 PM

Contrary to popular belief, Carbon is not emulated at all. In fact, Classic isn't even a proper emulator because it's running native binaries.

davecom · Mar 30, 2001, 10:35 PM

I'm behind Apocalypse on everything he said except for the emulated Carbon thing. I think what he mean't is that it's not the purest API for Mac OS X. Ofcourse carbon is not emulated!

------------------
Think Different.

sadie · Mar 31, 2001, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Apocalypse:
-preview: in order to do what Sadie suggested, you will have to build-in a decoding module for each file type that you want decoded. That could take years. Besides Apple is already on their way to doing this, you are just starting and have less resources.

Rubbish, it already has a simple preview mode, but it's limited to the size of the column. Quicktime, for example, is a cross-platform system available equally to every program. It would cost nothing to let this pop up into a window of its own.

We wouldn't be expected to understand, say, 3D Studio Max files. But something like a TIFF should certainly be viewable as a straight image without having to load a specific program.

Oh, and one feature that people really want in a Finder: the way Next had of storing files in the toolbar and dragging them out later to copy them!

berk8100 · Apr 4, 2001, 03:44 PM

I too am not a fan of the new 4K78 Finder. I liked the Public Beta's Finder a lot. It had that cool apple in the center of the menu bar and no list or icon views. I wish there was a way to get the PB's Finder to work under 4k78. I tried to get it to work but there is something different about the PB's and 4k78's Applications. Most of the PB's programs do not work in 4k78. I was really sad to find this out because I wanted to use the Music Player from PB in my 4k78.
Is there a way to like make the beta's apps work in the release version of OS X?

genevish · Apr 4, 2001, 04:05 PM

2) Can we replace the finder with any program we like and have it boot at runtime?

Yes, you can. I saw an article somewhere that detailed steps to replace the finder with the terminal. Wierd, but it worked. No reason you couldn't do the same with a different app.

clarkgoble · Apr 4, 2001, 06:32 PM

One thing that I'd love with a replacement Finder is the ability to have Power User features that simply shouldn't be part of the regular Finder. Many of these features would be to help with various Unix features that rightly are hidden to the regular user.

My votes:

Command to open terminal at current directory

Direct path field to go to that path ala IE

I love this feature in Windows Explorer (Window's equivalent of the Finder). When you are moving between directories it is very useful.

Better context menus and the ability to pass the file to an Applescript or a Unix command

mumble · Apr 6, 2001, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by berk8100:
I too am not a fan of the new 4K78 Finder. I liked the Public Beta's Finder a lot. It had that cool apple in the center of the menu bar and no list or icon views.

In what way did it have "no list or icon" views? What was the right-hand toolbar widget for? ;-)

berk8100 · Apr 6, 2001, 07:41 AM

I know, I know.
I just realized that. But What about my Apple?

Groovy · Apr 8, 2001, 11:50 AM

I want a dual split column view in one window so i can move and copy
files real easy. Having to open a second window is a pain ; )

sadie · Apr 9, 2001, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by berk8100:
I know, I know.
I just realized that. But What about my Apple?

It was pretty, but misleading. Everybody who used OS 9 thought it was a menu, and tried to click it.

Angus_D · Apr 9, 2001, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by sadie:
It was pretty, but misleading. Everybody who used OS 9 thought it was a menu, and tried to click it.

And then any with half a brain realised that it didn't do anything and didn't touch it again. The others (i.e. 90% of the Mac OS 9 Zealots) complained bitterly that they kept on clicking it and generally pissed off everybody else.

I personally don't see what all the fuss was about. I didn't even think twice.

IamBob · Apr 9, 2001, 01:56 PM

Yup, there are some people that learned not to stick their fingers in the electrical outlet the first time they got shocked.

crazyjohnson · Apr 10, 2001, 08:26 PM

Somone port the NeXTStep look and feel. Could GNUStep run on OS X?

tom_waters · Apr 10, 2001, 09:09 PM

I just discovered this forum and thought I should mention that I have a replacement for finder fairly well along in development.

It is my learning Objective-C and Cocoa project.

I enjoyed it so much, I bought myself a Cinema Display to continue work on it.

I started on it two weeks ago, so it's only 2,300 lines of code so far.

But it is going well. It does the a view similar to the Windows Explorer that I was very fond of. Tree view of directories on the left, details table view on the right. I just finished up an icon view, (with tighter spacing than finder). And I'm not inclined to do Browser View, which I've never liked for its dependance on horizontal scrolling.

It fixes my biggest complaint about Finder, which is that for unknown reasons, Finder never seems to have a very current view of the filesystem. Especially if Terminal or OmniWeb is creating/deleting files. I download files from OmniWeb all the time, only to go look in my Downloads folder and find that neither the .tar.gz file, nor the expanded directory that Stuffit Expander just created are visible. My file system view is always updated immediately. If you type "touch foo.txt" in a shell, the icon appears immediately in my app.

So far, it does drag and drop moves, (i haven't done right button drag copy yet), it deletes (moves to trash) with a single click of the delete key (another finder peeve of mine), it navigates using the keyboard, up and down arrow keys, enter to launch or navigate sub-folders... There's a "cd .." button, which can also be accessed via the left arrow key. It does all the sorting in the details list view, and I have it keeping folders separate from regular files, the same as WinExplorer... (this can be turned on and off.) It is a multi-document view of course.

Oh, another peeve: if a file doesn't have an extension, and Finder would pop up that awful dialog box asking the user to figure out which application to use, (as if any naive user would get it right), I just open the file and if it looks like ascii text, I load it up in a private TextView. Or I can send it to TextEdit... All these options will be configurable. Since I allow the user to browse /etc, this has turned out to be very handy.

Next I'll be doing more work in my icon view to allow sorting, and keyboard navigation, I'm debating whether to save icon locations or just stick with a grid, ditto on whether to use the resource forks for icon previews, or do my own .files for the icon previews.

I have to do abbreviated names for narrow columns, even though I dislike how finder does it... ALongFilena...blah.jpg but I'm not sure how I'll change that yet.

I want to implement Cut/Copy/Paste for files... currently the Finder just copies the Filenames, which is pretty useless. I also have to implement file renaming in all views.

I'm going to do "Shell Here" as soon as I can find out how to tell Terminal to tell /bin/tcsh to do a "cd $dirname" on startup. Anyone know how?

Then there's a list about about 20 other things I'm going to be doing to it before I release it.

That's about it for me. How far along has this project gotten?

-tw

DV · Apr 10, 2001, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by tom_waters:
I just discovered this forum and thought I should mention that I have a replacement for finder fairly well along in development.

It is my learning Objective-C and Cocoa project.

I enjoyed it so much, I bought myself a Cinema Display to continue work on it.

I started on it two weeks ago, so it's only 2,300 lines of code so far.

Are you serious?

If you are, put me down for 1 copy.

I was wondering, is there anything inherently faster in using Obj. C for the Finder? Or is it just a little more flexible than the Carbon version?

I think most people want a Cocoa Finder because of a speed increase in, well, finding files, and less spinning disks, but would it be any faster than the Carbon version? My limited understanding of Carbon is that it's just as accessible to the system as Cocoa, but Cocoa is just more flexible and more "dynamic" in its loading of modules and stuff, and not necessarily faster when it comes to loading files or processing tasks. Is this a correct assumption?

Dallas

tom_waters · Apr 11, 2001, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by DV:
Are you serious?

If you are, put me down for 1 copy.

I was wondering, is there anything inherently faster in using Obj. C for the Finder? Or is it just a little more flexible than the Carbon version?

I think most people want a Cocoa Finder because of a speed increase in, well, finding files, and less spinning disks, but would it be any faster than the Carbon version? My limited understanding of Carbon is that it's just as accessible to the system as Cocoa, but Cocoa is just more flexible and more "dynamic" in its loading of modules and stuff, and not necessarily faster when it comes to loading files or processing tasks. Is this a correct assumption?

Dallas

I'm serious. I put an image of it running in my iDisk public folder, tom_waters It's called Winder.jpg, or you can see it at homepage.mac.com/tom_waters

I don't know a thing about carbon. The best I can say is that if it is in Cocoa, it should look and feel like the rest of the Cocoa apps.

tom_waters · Apr 11, 2001, 12:53 PM

Here it is. I hate that File Sharing puts images in binhex!

sadie · Apr 11, 2001, 01:35 PM

Wow, it really is like the windows Explorer. It's like a missing link between the Finder and the Terminal

Impressive technical achievement, but I've never much liked that Windows view.

geran · Apr 11, 2001, 03:10 PM

Someone should take a look at gworkspace. It got a finder and some more stuff. Its like the Next Step workspace. Its coded in objective c. It is a part of the Gnustep. It copiles but projectbuilder doesent link it together. It is a start. Then you could add some more stuff to it. I really like the NeXT step gui, so I would love a NeXT Step finder.
it can be found here: http://www.gnustep.it/enrico/gworkspace/

tom_waters · Apr 11, 2001, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by sadie:
Wow, it really is like the windows Explorer. It's like a missing link between the Finder and the Terminal

Impressive technical achievement, but I've never much liked that Windows view.

What views do you use the most? I can add more.

cynistar · Apr 11, 2001, 09:07 PM

Wow, Tom - Great work! Do you know if you can make the text show up as NON-ANTI-ALIASED?

Also, how hard would it be to implement a next style 'shelf' that would be very cool!

keep it up!

phidias · Apr 11, 2001, 09:12 PM

Have you thought about doing a port of Nautilus. It has a lot of the features you want, and some you haven't thought of yet.

phidias · Apr 11, 2001, 09:13 PM

Have you thought about doing a port of Nautilus. It has a lot of the features you want, and some you haven't thought of yet.

tom_waters · Apr 12, 2001, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by phidias:
Have you thought about doing a port of Nautilus. It has a lot of the features you want, and some you haven't thought of yet.

what's nautilis?

tom_waters · Apr 12, 2001, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by cynistar:
Wow, Tom - Great work! Do you know if you can make the text show up as NON-ANTI-ALIASED?

Also, how hard would it be to implement a next style 'shelf' that would be very cool!

keep it up!

As far as non anti-aliased text goes... is there an option in Cocoa to turn it off? I haven't seen one. I'm using cocoa objects for things... so I get whatever they do.

Regarding the shelf: what made the next one special? Doesn't being able to drag files and folders to the finder toolbar shelf serve the same purpose?

Gee4orce · Apr 12, 2001, 03:13 AM

Noooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!

Windows Explorer is an interface nightmare. I'm sure with lots of careful work it can be made to work intuatively, but please don't go and blindly copy the mistakes that MS has perpetuated (just like KDE and Gnome have done).

Have a good lon hard read of this article: http://www.iarchitect.com/explore.htm

in particular, why 'cut, copy, paste' is the wrong metaphor for file management. You could use a similar idea - just don't call it 'cut and paste' (how about 'pickup and drop' ?)

Good luck with your project - it looks like you are well on your way. But please improve on Windows Explorer, and don't just blindly copy it.

IamBob · Apr 12, 2001, 03:44 AM

Just out of curiousity, can the "17 items, 13.8GB available" be moved onto the title? It looks like a giant waste of space compared to the rest of the window (save for the toolbar's icons and text).

If so you could have: "17 items in (temp), 13.8GB available." instead.

Looks awesome even with the *cough*wasted space*cough*!

sadie · Apr 12, 2001, 05:48 AM

Regarding the shelf: what made the next one special? Doesn't being able to drag files and folders to the finder toolbar shelf serve the same purpose?

*NO!*

The point of the shelf was to move files, not to provide shortcuts to them. You want to move a file from A to B. In A, you drag the file to the shelf. In B, you drag it back off again.

The toolbar at the moment just holds likes to them - when you drag them off again, they vanish.

iloatheny · Apr 12, 2001, 06:27 AM

Tom, I would like to discuss some features of your program. Please e-mail me with any real-time messaging ID (ICQ, MSN messenger etc), and let me take just 30 minutes of your time.

parallax · Apr 12, 2001, 09:58 AM

How about a root-access finder?

crazyjohnson · Apr 12, 2001, 03:04 PM

Yes. I said this earlier. It should be soooo easy. Somone just do it. Shouldnt it be easy to port this kind of stuff?

Originally posted by geran:
Someone should take a look at gworkspace. It got a finder and some more stuff. Its like the Next Step workspace. Its coded in objective c. It is a part of the Gnustep. It copiles but projectbuilder doesent link it together. It is a start. Then you could add some more stuff to it. I really like the NeXT step gui, so I would love a NeXT Step finder.
it can be found here: http://www.gnustep.it/enrico/gworkspace/

------------------
Like the band TOOL? Want to stay up to date? Want to be sent news updates? Send an e-mail to toolnews-request@freelists.org and put "subscribe" (without the
quotes) in the subject line of the email.

Herodotus · Apr 12, 2001, 10:08 PM

First of all, Tom, your port looks very exciting.

Secondly, my suggestions are very surface/marketing oriented, but hey Mac is an aesthetic platform

Do not call it Winder, and lose the Windows inspired icon... I think its great to take some positive elements from the Windows Explorer, but if you are doing this for a Mac crowd, you need a name and icon that rock, hell, call it Tom... that would be better then Winder, and get some great icon designer (like the people at Iconfactory) to do the icon for you.

That said, I am excited at the prospect, and would be happy to beta test for you.

IamBob · Apr 16, 2001, 12:16 PM

I think Herodotus is on to something there. The name is in serious need of help.

TOM (Totally O* Mac) would be better than Winder.

Charles Chene <ch2@videotron.ca> did an awesome icon for me. If you want some expert input you should give him a ring. He took the ideas I'd had and turned them golden. I just wish I could've paid him.

* = I have no idea. Someting starting with O that makes sense there.

clarkgoble · Apr 16, 2001, 12:46 PM

Hey, I really like it. One thing that I think would be fantastic is some UI object that shows/hides the tree display on the left. With WE (Windows Explorer) you have to choose the menu item "View/Explorer Bar/Folders" and there isn't even a shortcut.

I should also add that the article someone mentioned ( http://www.iarchitect.com/explore.htm ) does have a few points. The problem with a tree view is that it is pretty easy to get lost. For instance the server I mainly access has LOTS of directories with projects and versions of projects. This is one nice thing about the NeXT browser. The problem with the Finder version is that I can't figure out how to increase the number of columns in the browser. Why not 5 small ones rather than 2 big ones as default? (Yes I know the number increases with window size) I think a nice happy medium between the WE tree view and the NeXT tree view would be small icons with small text - the first 12 chars perhaps - and then let the user choose the number of columns.

I should add that I strongly disagree with the article's conclusions about copy and paste in a file manager. I honestly don't see why copy and paste should tree file objects differently than any other objects. To me using cut, copy and paste to move file objects is extremely intuitive. Especially if a user has been using them for every other object in sight. I know a lot of Mac users don't like this, but they really do make file management easier. (Especially with a command of "paste as alias." It's so frustrating to have to create an alias and then move that new file and then rename the file after I've moved it.)

Oh - BTW. An other thing that really ought to be present in the colum view is more control over sorting. This is easy to add to your program and is a HUGE limitation with the Finder right now. Being able to click on the "titles" that appear in list view in WE is a nice feature. For the Finder you have to open up the View options and keep it up to change sorting. (Nasty, and realistically not that intuitive, since most people want to look at data in a variety of sorting orders)

tom_waters · Apr 16, 2001, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Hey, I really like it. One thing that I think would be fantastic is some UI object that shows/hides the tree display on the left. With WE (Windows Explorer) you have to choose the menu item "View/Explorer Bar/Folders" and there isn't even a shortcut.

I should also add that the article someone mentioned ( http://www.iarchitect.com/explore.htm ) does have a few points. The problem with a tree view is that it is pretty easy to get lost. For instance the server I mainly access has LOTS of directories with projects and versions of projects. This is one nice thing about the NeXT browser. The problem with the Finder version is that I can't figure out how to increase the number of columns in the browser. Why not 5 small ones rather than 2 big ones as default? (Yes I know the number increases with window size) I think a nice happy medium between the WE tree view and the NeXT tree view would be small icons with small text - the first 12 chars perhaps - and then let the user choose the number of columns.

I should add that I strongly disagree with the article's conclusions about copy and paste in a file manager. I honestly don't see why copy and paste should tree file objects differently than any other objects. To me using cut, copy and paste to move file objects is extremely intuitive. Especially if a user has been using them for every other object in sight. I know a lot of Mac users don't like this, but they really do make file management easier. (Especially with a command of "paste as alias." It's so frustrating to have to create an alias and then move that new file and then rename the file after I've moved it.)

Oh - BTW. An other thing that really ought to be present in the colum view is more control over sorting. This is easy to add to your program and is a HUGE limitation with the Finder right now. Being able to click on the "titles" that appear in list view in WE is a nice feature. For the Finder you have to open up the View options and keep it up to change sorting. (Nasty, and realistically not that intuitive, since most people want to look at data in a variety of sorting orders)

Thanks for the input! In no particular order, I'll address some of the issues presented here.

1. the name/icon... I agree. I started out writing this out of frustration with Finder, and familiarity with WinExp, but in the process of writing it have become more familiar with the Mac and more critical of WinExp. I've also learned other are frustrated with Finder enough to use my app if I get it to a certain point. So I've changed my focus away from being a WinExp clone, more towards being a highly configurable general purpose file browser. So, I'll just keep working on it, and we can all name it later.

2. cut/copy/paste. I was shocked to see Finder just cutting the filenames... I'm going to integrate cut/copy/paste with a NeXTStep style shelf. I've always been worried when I press Ctrl-X in WinExp, because if you are using that method to move files, it causes anxiety in the middle, because your files are essentially deleted between the Ctrl-X and the Ctrl-V... With the Shelf, you can drag and drop files into the shelf and I'll actually MOVE them, as opposed to putting a link to them like Finder does in its toolbar. So if you cut or copy some files, they will appear in the shelf, which will really be a directory ~/.shelf... There will be some wierdness around what to do if there's a file with the same name already in the shelf, etc, but we'll cross that bridge...

3. The critique of WinExp was quite valid and rational, (which is a refreshing change from most Windoze bashing articles.) I was thinking about the notion of dragging/dropping files when the outlineView is very tall... and I've always hated that linger-auto-scroll action, it's far too imprecise. I was thinking of having a (user configurable of course) second treeview on the left, stacked vertically over each other. You could scroll one to the destination, and the first to the source... You could "root" them at different places, such as your home directory, or /Developer, etc. And when you double clicked on the header that tree would consume the whole space, with just the headers of the other views visible for dragging or double-clicking. I've seen this in some msft apps, maybe VJ++...

4. Sorting. The app currently does sorting by clicking in the column headers. First click sorts ascending, clicking again does descending, etc. I also have it as a Preference to keep the folders together when you sort. If you notice in WinExp, all of the Folders sort at the top, then the regular files sort after them, and the reverse when descending. I like it that way, but you can turn it off.

I'm presently working on the File-Info panel, and wondering how much stuff I should jam in there. E.g. HFS+ stuff? Creator, Type, etc? Unix stuff? chown, chgrp, chmod, Posix, setuid, etc. I'm also wondering whether it should be a popup, a drawer, or a sheet? I'm also deciding if this should be read-only info, or let everything be changed, and whether or not to allow the user to "sudo" to change things they don't have permission for.

I've done an icon view, that doesn't allow the user to rearrange the icons. E.g. it stays inside of a grid and follows the sort of the tableView... I'm wondering how much people are in love with being able to move their icons around inside of folders.

Oh, and if y'all are still reading, how important is it to be able to "drag box" select files in the tableView. I have that working nicely in the icon view, because it's my custom view, but in the tableView, I'm trying to just leave selections to NSTableView. e.g. Click, Shift-Click, Option-Click.

The good thing about this project is, it is A) small, only 2750 lines, B) all in objc/cocoa, C) being written by someone with almost no baggage on how it should work. I'll treat suggestions like this is a meritocracy.

So, that's my update. I'll be ready to take a few beta testers in a week or so.

-tw

Apr 16, 2001, 05:38 PM

I'm presently working on the File-Info panel, ... whether it should be a popup, a drawer, or a sheet?

I think it should be a new window, like it is in the current finder and here is why:

1. If it were a drawer, this would require people to keep their file browser window small enough to allow for drawer space on the screen for whenever they want to command-i.

2. Sheets are for document windows. The purpose of them is to stay attached to the thing they pertain to. I think it would confuse this metaphor if one was to command-i a file or folder, then get a sheet that is attached to a window which contains many files and folders. Then you have the problem of it floating over your file browser when you still want to look around to compare files & whatnot.

3. If it is a new window, this allows people to place this window wherever they prefer on their screen, and gives you the ability to let them choose if they want only one info window (like the OS X finder) or multiple info windows (like the classic finder)

That's my opinion...

sadie · Apr 17, 2001, 05:48 AM

I think Apple's toolbar could be fixed to act like a shelf very easily, without disturbing the current behaviour: use modifiers. Even the dock could get in on the fun.

If you drag a file in the Finder with (checks quickly) option-command, it makes a shortcut. If you drag with option, it copies. And it gives you little icons to show you which one it will do.

When you drag an icon off the toolbar or the dock, it should put a little 'poof' icon in the corner, to show you that if you drop the icon there it'll go poof. It should also let you drag an icon off with other modifiers, so that you can drop it as a shortcut, a copy, or simply moved (the latter with, say, command).

You want to make an alias for a file. You drag it to the toolbar, go to the right place, option-drag it off the toolbar to make the alias, then drag it straight off to dismiss it (poof).

You see, it's possible make things more useful and more intuitive, without spoiling the neat interface you already have. In a similar vein, I think the Finder icon's dock-popup-menu should include items from a folder of favourites, very much like an Apple menu...

Apr 18, 2001, 10:51 PM

Ok, I have an idea. Lets take the list view, and combine it with the column view. So you can click on the folder and it lists its content in the next column or you can click on the arrow next to the folder and it drops the list down in that column. That way it would lessen the amount of mouse movement.

Just a thought.

tie · Apr 19, 2001, 12:38 AM

I hope this isn't off-topic but the single biggest problem I have with the current OS X Finder is when I have opened a folder in column view and I want to move or copy some files out of it, say, to a nephew directory (child of a sibling). I need to open a new window. I think there is some key I can press to do this, but I can never remember whether it is command, control, or option.

So if you are doing a column view, maybe you can try to make this process more intuitive.

Geobunny · Apr 19, 2001, 12:32 PM

No-one's mentioned this but we need spring loaded folders. Regular icon view can spring open the current OS 9 way, columns view can spring open by sliding a new column over.

Can't wait to see how you get on with this.

------------------
Just face it - some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue!

tom_waters · Apr 19, 2001, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Geobunny:
No-one's mentioned this but we need spring loaded folders. Regular icon view can spring open the current OS 9 way, columns view can spring open by sliding a new column over.

Can't wait to see how you get on with this.

I've hardly ever used MacOS... I guess I should reboot into it a few times, huh? I come from a DOS -> Solaris/X11 -> Windows -> Java/Swing -> OSX/Cocoa background.

I've heard a lot about "spring loaded folders", but have no idea what they are. Can you post a definition for me here? Or send me email?