[Kestral]

This is a question for the people here who have a CompSci degree.

Ok, a little background information - I come from a businss background (majored in Business Management and minored in Finance), so I did my requsite four years of University, studying courses like Accounting, Management, Finance, Statistics, Human Resources, Logistics, etc etc etc... needless to say, like my CompSci peers, I paid my dues and did my time.

But a while back, I ran into a friend of mine, she's going out with someone who is an author of a business book (and has an MBA). Being that I came from that background, he gave me a copy and asked me to check it out and see what I thought.

I couldn't believe it. He managed in this book of a few hundred pages, condense all the information I had learned in 4 years of University in easy to read language and in a practical useful manner (specifically targetted to small businesses, but nonetheless, with enough depth and breadth).

It really made me realize what it truly meant when someone says that a University degree is just a piece of paper. I always believed it was true, while struggling thorugh University, thinking to myself, "What the hell am I doing this for?", but to see that concept in the form of a book in my hand was just amazing.

But rather than bitch and complain about the way of the world, I have a question in earnest for the CompSci folks here. Since there exists at least one book in which one could learn what essentially the same information as one would get in a business degree, I was curious to know, is there a book (or a few books) I could read in which I could learn what would be topics covered in the cirriculum of a CompSci degree, but explained in clear, useful, practical language? (If not, just think of the amazing opportunity here to write such a book, and imagine how many copies it would sell!) I'd love to learn the stuff that computer programmers learn in foundation courses, ie. theory of programming, mathematics, arrays, etc etc etc, as part of my quest to get back into programming. Does such a creature exist, and if so, by what name does it wish to be addressed?

[bsturgen]

Originally posted by Kestral:
<STRONG>
But rather than bitch and complain about the way of the world, I have a question in earnest for the CompSci folks here. Since there exists at least one book in which one could learn what essentially the same information as one would get in a business degree, I was curious to know, is there a book (or a few books) I could read in which I could learn what would be topics covered in the cirriculum of a CompSci degree, but explained in clear, useful, practical language? (If not, just think of the amazing opportunity here to write such a book, and imagine how many copies it would sell!) I'd love to learn the stuff that computer programmers learn in foundation courses, ie. theory of programming, mathematics, arrays, etc etc etc, as part of my quest to get back into programming. Does such a creature exist, and if so, by what name does it wish to be addressed?</STRONG>

In CS? Not likely, but here are a few candidates:

The Art of Computer Programming, volumes 1 - 3, Donald E. Knuth
Foundations of Computer Science, Aho & Ullman
Object-oriented Software Construction, Bertrand Meyer

I *think* that covers the important bits of my CS degree sans specialization. You may want to get the red dragon book (Compilers, Aho) and the OS book (Modern Operating Systems, Tannenbaum). The Foundations of Computer Science probably covers the majority of the information you are looking for, but the Knuth series is a classic and, IMO, is still one of the best CS series ever done.

[mreda]

"Introduction to Algorithms" By Cormen, Leiserson and Rivest

You can't learn the material in standard CS degree from a single book, but if you want to do it from multiple books, I think this has to be one of them.

[11011001]

I wish there were such a book, save me a lot of time in getting a comp sci degree.

I would be interested to know how much a person witha computer science degree actually uses all that they learned, and whether they are as well off as someone who learned to program by reading a lot of books, and who programs every spare moment because they think it is the funnest thing in they world.

(funnest is not a word, i know)

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: 11011001 ]

[Gee4orce]

Hey - what was that book you were given ? Is it published ? I'd like to read it ASAP....

[speirsfr]

Originally posted by 11011001:
<STRONG>I would be interested to know how much a person witha computer science degree actually uses all that they learned, and whether they are as well off as someone who learned to program by reading a lot of books, and who programs every spare moment because they think it is the funnest thing in they world.</STRONG>

I have an honours degree in Software Engineering (which is just CS with some extra fun things added like industrial placement).

I think that the advantage of having a well rounded CS knowledge as opposed to just being able to program is that one can more easily make the connections between different areas of CS. I mean, I don't understand or know a lot about many areas of CS, but I know *of* them and understand *a little* about each of them. I have this mental map of the subject that is quite complete, but necessarily thin in places.

This certainly helps when trying to grasp new stuff....
Fraz

[danengel]

If you read a book, you know a lot of things, but you don't understand and experience them. That's why it takes several years to get a university degree where you learn to analyze problems, solve new ones etc. To learn means to work hard, it may help if you've got a good book but there's no such thing as magic.

[davechen]

I think a CS degree gives you a understanding of the fundamentals of how computers work, how algorithms work, how you'd go about solving a problem. I've got more CS degrees than any one person ought to, and I use some of the stuff I learned as an undergrad all the time.

Basic data structures come up all the time: lists, trees, etc.

Algorithm analysis: how to make your n^3 algorithm run in nlogn

Analyzing code: why the compiler is producing stupid/inefficient code. how you can re-organize code to work around it. how you can re-organize your data to improve memory access.

A lot of times in tracking down a bug you have to think about the ways a computer does something, e.g. the ways a stack can get munged or memory overwritten.

Of course some of these things are directly taught in lectures. But you gain experience by doing.

[Geobunny]

Sure, lectured stuff can be read in books, that's why there are recommended reading lists that go with each module in your CompSci course. Sometimes reading them is better than the lecture itself (but that depends greatly on the lecturer).

Somethings, however, you just can't read in a book. Practice being one of them. Problem extraction, abstraction and solving skills among many others.

I'm in my final (4th) year so proly won't affect me now, but if such a book were to exist for CS, I'd love to see it, then I could answer your question.

Oh yeah, one last thing university CompSci courses teach you that you won't find in a book is how to work on a single practical exercise for an entire week, living in labs full of linux boxes, pizza boxes and coffee mugs, surrounded by random source code printouts covered in blue-biro debugging dry-runs, without seeing the light of day until it's done!

[aleph_null]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
<STRONG>Oh yeah, one last thing university CompSci courses teach you that you won't find in a book is how to work on a single practical exercise for an entire week, living in labs full of linux boxes, pizza boxes and coffee mugs, surrounded by random source code printouts covered in blue-biro debugging dry-runs, without seeing the light of day until it's done! </STRONG>

Not to mention all the other un-showered geeks in the lab... Ah, those were the days. Sunrise over campus was always kinda pretty.

I don't know about anyone else, but I might not have the discipline to trudge through some of the tougher math and theory in CS without a grade to make and a prof to hope to impress. Some of it's pretty dry.

At least, that was certainly the case while I was in school. Maybe it'd be different for me now.

There are also usually a few team projects in school. Which, if you're going to work in industry, is a good thing to have some experience with.

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by aleph_null:
<STRONG>

There are also usually a few team projects in school. Which, if you're going to work in industry, is a good thing to have some experience with.</STRONG>

Definitely. My team project last year was to design an air traffic control system for a group of islands. Each group of four people had to write their code in Java and make sure it communicated safely and correctly with all other groups. It was a bitch to get folk together to actually do the work, but certainly a good learning exercise.

[lenz]

Thank God that comp sci is actually a field where you only waste about 50-60% of the time you're in university(atleast after the first 2 years). I'd hate to be in business!

[SillyMonk]

Read 2600 magazine from 1990 to 1997, that's where I learned all my CompSci.

[ryochiji]

Background: I have about 8 years of programming experience in various languages. Until a year ago, I had a job as a programmer, and was earning $4-5k/month. A year ago, quit my job to go back to school to get my CS degree.

If you think getting a CS degree will teach you anything, you're wrong. The only thing that'll teach you programming is to sit in front of a computer for hours and read/write code. Lots of code, for hundreds of hours. It's like any other skill...learning the theory and the basics isn't going to make you any good at it without lots of practice and experience.

If you have the time to read a big thick book on CS, choose a language, look for a good book, and start coding. You will learn a heck of a lot more that way.

(Why did I quit a good job to get a degree if it was so useless? I can't give you a short answer, but I will tell you that it's the best thing I ever did.)

[Kestral]

ryochiji, I'd be interested in hearing your story of why you found it advantageous to go back to school to get your CS degree (did you have a degree before that?) - but if I were to go back to school again, I'd be more inclined to go for my MBA (majoring in Finance, which for some reason I have an affinity for) instead of a CS, and become a financial analyst (you know, the kind you see on TV that do the upgrades and downgrades) *grin*

[wallinbl]

ryochiji: I'm on my way back to school for CS as well. I'm trying to remain employed while I do it, though. Florida State has a program where you can accomplish the upper class portion online (if you live near a Florida community college offering the necessary support facilities). So, I won't be burdened by trying to work around class schedules. I probably won't ever get to sleep, but hopefully I'll get my CS degree.

[Kristoff]

My degree is in "Computer Science and Engineering".
My program of study included:
Hardware:
.Digital Logic
.EE I
.EE II
.Advanced Digital Design (VHDL)
.Computer Architecture
.Microprocessors (design issues, assy lang)
--all with labs.

Software:
.Object Oriented Programming
.Software Design Techniques
.Data Structures
.Algorithms
.Automata Theory
.Principals of Languages
.Operating Systems
.Software Engineering Process (SEI stuff)
.Fundamentals of Neural Networks
.Database Design.

Plus the regular old Calc II, III, Diff EQ, Physics, English, Jamaican Music , etc. "foundation classes".

Doubt you could cram that all in one book. Just too much info on such a vast array of subjects. Computer Science is very complicated--more so than business. Oops--did I just say that? :o Sorry for the political incorrectness, but let's face it. There's a reason why it can be condensed into one volume.

[ryochiji]

Originally posted by Kestral:
<STRONG>ryochiji, I'd be interested in hearing your story of why you found it advantageous to go back to school to get your CS degree (did you have a degree before that?)</STRONG>

Kestral (and anyone else who might be interested in my saga):

No, I did not have a degree prior to that. I was confident that with my knowledge, experience, and aptitude, I could get by just fine without a degree. But I decided to go back to school because it felt like a good idea. The dot-com bubble had burst in the US (I was in Tokyo, where the dot-com phenomenon was just starting), and it felt like having a degree on top of my skills would give me a little extra boost in the future, even if I had a cushy job at that point.

Also, the fact of it is, regardless of what we think, society still does distinguish "college graduates" from "high school graduates." I didn't want to be looked down upon simply because I skipped a process I felt to be unnecessary. And I knew that what I had at that point was not enough to break this popular prejudice.

On top of that, I was tired of slaving away writing code for 12-14 hours a day for some company. I was working so much I didn't even have the time to spend any of the money I was making. Getting an education seemed like a good way to waste money (of course, now I'm broke, so it might've been a little too effective :-), and an "occupation" in which all one is expected to do is learn and study suddenly seemed very attractive to me.

Anyway, I could go on for ever. Really, I decided to go back to school because it felt like the right thing to do. School really isn't that bad when you actually want to be there.

[wadesworld]

Although some people go on to good (or even great) careers despite having skipped college, by-and-large it's almost always a good idea to go to college. You learn a lot of the theory of computer science, how to work with others and you prevent doors from being closed that shouldn't.

Wade

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by ryochiji:
<STRONG>
If you think getting a CS degree will teach you anything, you're wrong. The only thing that'll teach you programming is to sit in front of a computer for hours and read/write code. Lots of code, for hundreds of hours. It's like any other skill...learning the theory and the basics isn't going to make you any good at it without lots of practice and experience.

</STRONG>

Boy do I ever disagree with that statement (see my previous post).
It depends on where you go to school I guess.

If you didn't learn anything while getting your degree then one or more of the following is true:
1) you got ripped-off
2) you didn't pay attention
3) the school you went to sucks

Now, I know you paid attention, so I can only assume that 1 and 2 must be true. Please share the institution's name to help others avoid 1 and 2.

[waffffffle]

I'm a sophomore CS engineer. Engineers here make fun of the Econ majors (we have no business school here) since they do nothing compare to what we have to do. Business isn't really that hard, but software is. There's some famous quote by knuth or someone about how hard software is. I know that experience is the key. I didn't have it when I got here and it has been hurting me. That's what I get for being a Mac user BEFORE OS X. No command line == no easy way to learn to program. Now of course it's completely different. I just wish OS X had been around a few years earlier. It has been great for me so far, with a few exceptions (like when I need to write SPARC assembly, or that our solaris servers refuse my SSH connections and I have to jump through hoops to connect).

However I have learned that there is no way to cram CS into 1 book. I have 3 different C books on my bookshelf and I still can't do most of it. There are too many languages and too many concepts to squeeze in there, and there is of course the experience, which I don't have. And there are plenty of concepts that don't carry over between languages, like pointers (I really hate pointers, I like java because it has no pointers, or at least none that I can find). Plus there's object oriented programming, which I really don't get.

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
<STRONG>And there are plenty of concepts that don't carry over between languages, like pointers (I really hate pointers, I like java because it has no pointers, or at least none that I can find). Plus there's object oriented programming, which I really don't get.</STRONG>

That's not entirely true! You do have pointers in java, but they're well hidden and you're not allowed to mess around with pointer arithmetic like you can in C. Could be a good thing, but I like the added ability of pointer arithmetic - saves a bit of coding

[Kestral]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
<STRONG>I'm a sophomore CS engineer. Engineers here make fun of the Econ majors (we have no business school here) since they do nothing compare to what we have to do. Business isn't really that hard, but software is. </STRONG>

Even though I am a Business major, I've learned to have respect for both Business and Software. I think that underestimating the Business side of the Software Business is a huge mistake. After all, MacOS as a piece of software (not to mention the hardware) is/was far superior to MS DOS/Windows, yet Microsoft won out, not because of better Software, but because of better Business decisions. So for all your insanely great Software Engineers out there, discount the importance of Business at your peril! Yes, building a better mousetrap is difficult, but without the right Business saavy, the world will not beat a path to your door.

As mentioned in another thread, I started out programming the Commodore 64 in BASIC and pretty much ended it there until recently when I've started learning C. I got good enough on the 64 that I was able to program a BBS system, a pretty complex system indeed. But what's amazing is, back then, I actually had to write the input/output algorithms with for modem, create my own relative database system from scratch for the message boards, and the user access and security systems. Today, it seems so much easier. After all, you can just make calls to APIs for the I/O, Cocoa will take care of all the interface messiness (just make the buttons in Interface Builder and link to the code), and if I need a high powered relational database, just make calls to mySQL. In theory, it's so much simpler these days to code, it seems! Which is why I am so excited about learning C. So far, I"m on Chapter 6 of David Mark's "Learn C on the Macintosh" and you know what, it's funny because C isn't that different from C64 BASIC. In fact, I've been writing notes in a legal pad as I go along. I've made two columns, one titled "BASIC", and the other titled "C". So far, it's not that different.

In Commodore 64 BASIC, outputting text would be done like so:

PRINT "Hello World!"

In C:

printf ( "Hello World!" );

To request user input on the C64:

INPUT "Enter Your Age-&gt; ";AGE

In C:

printf ( "Enter Your Age-&gt;" );
scanf ( &age );

(If I screwed the above up, please let me know!)

I peeked ahead on the book a little bit last night just out of curiosity and see that the next few chapters will be the IF/THEN/ELSE statements, but so far, it's not that different than BASIC. One of the major reasons why I was dissuaded from learning C way back then was because people told me that C was much much more complicated compared to BASIC and that it would be overwhelming. Wish I didn't fall into the hype. I'm sure it gets a lot more complex from here, but it's nice to know that the basic (no pun intended) principles are the same. I nearly wimped and went for RealBASIC instead of learning C but so far, I'm glad I chose to go with C instead.

Kestral

[ryochiji]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
<STRONG>
Boy do I ever disagree with that statement (see my previous post).
It depends on where you go to school I guess.

If you didn't learn anything while getting your degree then one or more of the following is true:
1) you got ripped-off
2) you didn't pay attention
3) the school you went to sucks
</STRONG>

You forgot one:
4) you already knew a large portion of the material

Read my previous post(s) above.

In my opinion:
-They don't teach you anything you can't teach your self.
-Competency directly correlates with experience, which is not synonymous with academic background.

[wadesworld]

They don't teach you anything you can't teach your self.

I disagree, for most people.

You can read a lot of books on designing relational databases. However, it's not likely that you'll implement a solid relational database unless someone teaches you some lessons about how to do so.

There are those rare people like Wozniak, who can read something in a book and then go do it like they've been doing it all their lives. Unfortunately, those people are called geniuses, and there aren't that many around.

College doesn't teach you how to be a good programmer, it gives you a foundation upon which to build. A lot of self-taught programmers can write a program, but in a lot of cases, you'll find very poor quality code with weak data structures and no documentation. College begins the process of teaching you better habits.

-Competency directly correlates with experience, which is not synonymous with academic background.

True. But sometimes academic background is important. Why let a door get slammed in your face? Why not go to college and give yourself every chance possible?

Additionally, competency is often difficult to come by through experience, if you can't get the experience. If you never took EE 101 and learned any assembly or what an interrupt service routine is, how are you going to get that job developing Ethernet drivers?

Wade

[Kestral]

Originally posted by wadesworld:
<STRONG>College doesn't teach you how to be a good programmer, it gives you a foundation upon which to build. A lot of self-taught programmers can write a program, but in a lot of cases, you'll find very poor quality code with weak data structures and no documentation. College begins the process of teaching you better habits.</STRONG>

So true!! That BBS program I mentioned that I wrote on the Commodore 64 - spagetti code city!! But you know what? It worked!! Of course, it would have taken be 3x as long to write if I had to document it carefully and I probably would have lost interest/energy halfway.

Now that I think of it, one thing I'm not looking forward to in my learning to program again - whenever I encountered bugs, I used to swear up and down and get all PO'ed - of course, at age 11, it doesn't do much, but geez, another 15-20 years from now, I could be looking at cornary city if that happened

[ryochiji]

You can read a lot of books on designing relational databases. However, it's not likely that you'll implement a solid relational database unless someone teaches you some lessons about how to do so

I disagree. I don't think anybody can teach you how to build a relational database. The only thing that'll teach you how to build a good database is to plan and implement a database, learn from your mistakes, and do the whole thing all over again.
At least that's how I learned about relational databases (and yes, there are databases out there that I built, that are being used today).

Knowledge can be taught, but skills must be acquired. There's some knowledge involved in CS, but without the skills, the knowledge is useless. And in my opinion, skills can be acquired only through experience/practice.

College begins the process of teaching you better habits.

Good point, and I agree with you there.

Why not go to college and give yourself every chance possible?

I don't want to discourage anyone from going to college. I'm not even saying that going to college is a waste of time, either. If you haven't read my post above, I'm a perfectly happy college student (CS major) my self.

What I'm trying to say is, that degrees are often over evaluated. Having a degree only means that you passed the required courses; not a testament of one's competency.
On the other hand, if you have experience, you have experience. Nobody can question what you're capable of doing, if you've already done it.
I also believe that, with CS, one's ability to teach him/her self is crucial above all, as anyone who can't stay on top of current technologies will become obsolete, ragardless of your academic background.

[Chaaaosss]

Damn. Maybe it isn't clear but having a Computer Science degree is fairly instrumental in finding a JOB in the field, unless you're this hacker than can produce this gorgeous, amazing code, and you don't mind showing it to people (or you have some beautiful shareware app that everyone uses). A CS degree, in my humble opinion, validates what everyone's been saying: you've sloshed through the sh!t, done your time, completed a couple of projects along the way, etc. Ask most employers and they'll say the same thing: they know that maybe not everyone *learns* so much from a degree in Computer Science but *having* the degree shows a lot: you took the initiative to go to college, stayed there for *four* years (or more, of course), and *finished.* Most employers don't like quitters and most people who'll be hiring you went through the same crap that you'd be basically writing off as a "waste of time" or showing you couldn't finish without said degree. Having finished college, with a respectable GPA even, shows a lot more than some people think. While that MBA book is all well and good and some people might be kicking themselves in retrospect for plunking down the six figures, who the hell hires an executive (or executive in training) without an MBA? Yes, the education is important -- supplement the degree if necessary with the aformentioned books -- but that diploma even more so.

I'd also like to say that while a really well written book as described by the initial poster would be so helpful, the thing I've gained from this degree is persistence. I'm most proud of this -- I'm really part of a phantom club. When other I speak to other engineering majors, we've all seen the sunrise more than once, struggled through those impossible "make your own arrays of pointers to linked lists of pointers to linked lists" projects, and essentially done our time. While we've learned to code, we've also learned to organize our thoughts around the tools everyone uses. I honestly don't think that on my own I could set deadlines for myself to finish some project like the linked list one and actually see it to the end. The whole reason I'm in college is to have someone else tell me that I'm going to learn this crap whether I want to or not and I'm going to do it before Friday, midnight or I'm going to do it again in 4 months until my parents are out of money.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Chaaaosss ]

[sadie]

I just started a job a few months ago, straight out of university. A guy already working here, the same age as me, didn't get a degree and has spent the time working instead - partly schit jobs and partly here programming. He also has no maths background. We both write Java for the same project. The comparison in our code is fascinating.

My code is easy to read, and well commented. It's got a lot of good structure in there, and everybody agrees it makes sense. His code is convoluted and at times impossible to interpret. And other people agree on this. However, he quickly produces most of the real workings of the program, while i sit around for weeks writing documentation.

Talking to him, he's fully aware of the (roughly) same principles of object-orientation and other theory as me; he just doesn't bother to use them as much.

In time i'm sure my code will become more practical, while he's trying to teach himself better theory. The lesson depends where you're sitting, but I'm still glad I did my degree.

(plus it was a good few years of life as well, of course...)