[Justin W. Williams]

I picked up a copy of Visual Studio.Net from the campus bookstore before heading home for the summer just for the pure fact that it was $10. I am installing it now and realize how much more complicated it must be for a Windows Dev using these tools. SOAP, .Net, DOM, COM, ADO, MFC, etc.

I used to be pretty in to VB before jumping Mac, but i never remembered Windows programming being this much of a task.

Do you guys think we have it easier w/ just out Carbon and Cocoa?

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>I am installing it now and realize how much more complicated it must be for a Windows Dev using these tools. SOAP, .Net, DOM, COM, ADO, MFC, etc.</STRONG>

You gained practical experience with all those technologies simply by installing Visual Studio? Wow, the new "billboards" during the install must be amazing!

Since you are ignorant beyond belief, let me enlighten you:

SOAP is part of .NET.
DOM is part of .NET.
COM has been deprecated.
ADO is part of .NET (ADO.NET)
MFC has been replaced by WinForms in .NET.

Everything is integrated nicely in .NET.

<STRONG>Do you guys think we have it easier w/ just out Carbon and Cocoa? </STRONG>

Do you know what I think? I think you're a troll. Don't come back until you've grown up, and remember, assumption is the mother of all ****ups.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>I picked up a copy of Visual Studio.Net from the campus bookstore before heading home for the summer just for the pure fact that it was $10. I am installing it now and realize how much more complicated it must be for a Windows Dev using these tools. SOAP, .Net, DOM, COM, ADO, MFC, etc.

I used to be pretty in to VB before jumping Mac, but i never remembered Windows programming being this much of a task.

Do you guys think we have it easier w/ just out Carbon and Cocoa? </STRONG>

I'm not sure whether or not this guy's trolling.

SOAP: This is not part of .NET per se, though .NET can use it. But as it happens, so can MacOS.

.NET: Not on OSX yet, but this is one paradigm I hope dies a quick, painful death.

DOM: In OSX. Keep in mind it's mainly a system for working with XML more than anything else. It's part of CoreFoundation's XML services.

COM: It's a great concept, but the implementation is utter junk (SOM, off of which OpenDoc and OS9 CFM's were based, was far superior). Neverthelsws, for some reason I'll never understand Apple incorporated large portions of this technology in their Plugin Manager (another CoreFoundation thing unless I'm mistaken).

ADO: I'm not all that familiar with this one, so I'll reserve judgement.

MFC: One word: Cocoa.

[sadie]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>.NET: Not on OSX yet, but this is one paradigm I hope dies a quick, painful death.</STRONG>

.NET will survive, because it is going to be the only way of writing windows programs. And while I haven't any real experience of it yet, it does look significantly better than Win32, which is the POS that they have to use right now.

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>

Do you know what I think? I think you're a troll. Don't come back until you've grown up, and remember, assumption is the mother of all ****ups.</STRONG>

I am not trying to troll. I was trying to start a debate on whether or not people thought it was more fun to develop on the Mac or a Windows platform.

I merely listed the names of all the technology names that was listed in the installer window (minus XML).

Just because someone wants to gain opinions on a Mac v. PC topic, doesnt make him a troll. Grow the **** up.

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by sadie:
<STRONG>

.NET will survive, because it is going to be the only way of writing windows programs. And while I haven't any real experience of it yet, it does look significantly better than Win32, which is the POS that they have to use right now.</STRONG>

I tried to dive in to win32 development a few years back, but it was by far the most confusing thing I ever tried. I just couldn't pick it up, so I stayed with Visual Basic. IMO, it does all the little progs I want to do on Windows (basically anything one of my friends asks for).

Cocoa was really easy to pick up. Mind you, I am still learning, but it took an afternoon to learn ObjectiveC syntax, and I am still trying to understand all this Object-Oriented stuff.

I hope .Net makes it easier for Windows Development w/ C/C++. Perhaps I will jump in sometime this summer just for fun.

[EDIT: Is this flamebait too since I said Cocoa was a nice language and I didn't like Win32?]

[Kristoff]

JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA
JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA
JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA
JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA
JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA
JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA

Why learn ANYONE's proprietary crap.
Use JAVA, then run it on Mac OS, BSD, AIX, Windows, Linux, Solaris, blah, blah, blah....

[Marshall]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>I am installing it now and realize how much more complicated it must be for a Windows Dev using these tools. SOAP, .Net, DOM, COM, ADO, MFC, etc.

...

Do you guys think we have it easier w/ just out Carbon and Cocoa? </STRONG>

Well, keep in mind that the .NET framework encompasses more areas than just those on which Carbon and Cocoa are focused. The Collections, Drawing, Text, Windows Forms, etc. namespaces have rough conceptual equivalents in Cocoa, but .NET also includes database access (which is the separate Enterprise Objects Framework on OS X), and Web Forms (for which JSP or WebObjects would be used). SOAP, which is built into .NET, requires further add-ons.

Speaking directly to desktop application development, both platforms have large API's that do a myriad of things. .NET has a big, unified framework with a common design pattern throughout, and Visual Studio's interface makes creating UI's as easy as dragging a button onto a form, double-clicking it, and typing in some code (similar to how VB worked). However, the moment you go *outside* the framework to do "uncommon" things (such as playing the system's beep sound, which Microsoft in their infinite wisdom seems to consider an uncommon activity) it gets messy very quickly. The Win32 API isn't much fun.

Cocoa, on the other hand, has a far smaller number of classes than .NET has, and from what I've seen, it's common to use outside, C-based API's. Objective-C doesn't do automatic memory management like the .NET languages do (although its memory management scheme is powerful). It's designed to encourage good object-oriented design, so there's more work involved in setting up a basic UI (creating an class, instantiating an object, connecting outlets and actions, etc.) All of this adds up to a harder-to-learn system, in my opinion.

However, I have not found .NET's class library, as large as it is, to provide the level of elegance and good sense that Cocoa has. Visual Studio .NET's layout tools merely write pages and pages of code, unlike the dynamic nib loading system that Cocoa has. The "connection" metaphor in Cocoa results in much cleaner object-oriented code, and the whole thing just feels like it was written around real problems that application developers face instead of "hmmm, this class might be useful, let's throw that in there too." I've been reading through Aaron Hillegass's book lately and am constantly saying to myself, "wow, that's a smart way of doing it." The same goes for what I've read about WebObjects.

So I think that once one gets past the simple "put a button on a form and make it change a text box" examples, Cocoa developers have a better time, due to the design of the framework and the power that it has. But I don't think there's much of a difference in overall complexity; data access, web-based applications, the calling of remote objects, and so forth all exist on both platforms. I just think Apple's tools do a better job of being useful than .NET does.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>I merely listed the names of all the technology names that was listed in the installer window (minus XML).</STRONG>

and because there were so many technologies listed, you assumed that Windows programming must be very complicated? Please explain the (non)logic that many technologies makes programming complicated.

<STRONG>Just because someone wants to gain opinions on a Mac v. PC topic, doesnt make him a troll. Grow the **** up.</STRONG>

Of course that doesn't make someone a troll. The point is you weren't merely trying to "gain opinions". If you were, you would have phrased your last sentence in a different way.

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: hushmail ]

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>[EDIT: Is this flamebait too since I said Cocoa was a nice language and I didn't like Win32?]</STRONG>

Not flamebait, not even a troll

However, your post does not contribute to the discussion any more than "Mac sucks" contributes to a "Mac vs. PC" discussion.

You state that win32 development was confusing, but don't present any arguments. Your opinion that it was confusing is worthless to most of us, since we don't know how intelligent you are.

Lots of other people are able to present arguments, and I don't see why you shouldn't be able to as well.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>SOAP: This is not part of .NET per se, though .NET can use it. But as it happens, so can MacOS.</STRONG>

Actually, it is part of .NET. SOAP is used in the following areas: .NET Remoting, ASP .NET Web Services, and ATL Web Services.

Yes you have SOAP in MacOS as well, but you're able to create and deploy web services much faster in the Windows world. What we lack are good development tools for this under MacOS.

<STRONG>

.NET: Not on OSX yet, but this is one paradigm I hope dies a quick, painful death.</STRONG>

The technology is nice, but I agree, the .NET ideology must die a horrible death

<STRONG>

COM: It's a great concept, but the implementation is utter junk</STRONG>

Which is why it has been deprecated in .NET.

<STRONG>

ADO: I'm not all that familiar with this one, so I'll reserve judgement.</STRONG>

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/te...de/adoplus.asp

<STRONG>

MFC: One word: Cocoa.</STRONG>

Well, MFC is old, WinForms in .NET is what we should be talking about.
But then again, Cocoa is actually based on some pretty old stuff, so I guess the comparison actually is fair.

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: hushmail ]

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>
and because there were so many technologies listed, you assumed that Windows programming must be very complicated? Please explain the (non)logic that many technologies makes programming complicated.
</STRONG>

It is a lot more daunting to a beginning programmer to see all of the technology they must familiarize themselves with to even begin thinking about being a serious programmer. To the seasoned vet, it is nothing I am sure. There is plenty of logic behind my statements. You are doing nothing but trying to start a flamewar.

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>
Of course that doesn't make someone a troll. The point is you weren't merely trying to "gain opinions". If you were, you would have phrased your last sentence in a different way.
</STRONG>

How am I not trying to gain opinions when the final sentence of my first post was "Do you guys think we have it easier w/ just out Carbon and Cocoa?" which obviously asks for people's opinions of Mac vs. Windows development.

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by Marshall:
<STRONG>
I just think Apple's tools do a better job of being useful than .NET does.</STRONG>

Well said with your analysis. I also think its another feather in Apple's cap that they give away their Dev Tools. It makes it much easier for someone to get involved w/o having to pay. If your are in school w/ a campus that has a campus agreement, its not so bad ($10), but to anyone else it can get quite expensive.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>It is a lot more daunting to a beginning programmer to see all of the technology they must familiarize themselves with to even begin thinking about being a serious programmer. To the seasoned vet, it is nothing I am sure. There is plenty of logic behind my statements. You are doing nothing but trying to start a flamewar.</STRONG>

First of all, you still haven't explained why it makes Windows programming complicated. If you manage to come up with a valid argument before the G5 is released, I'll be surprised.

One must not familiarize themselves with all those technologies to be a serious programmer. Can you please explain why exactly a game programmer should familiarize him/herself with ADO(.NET) before he/she can consider him/herself a serious programmer?

You argument is like saying it's daunting to buy a Mac. I mean, there's 4 different Macs: iBook, PowerBook, iMac, PowerMac. So many different things! So daunting! Of course not. People have different needs depending on their tasks. It's not daunting for a programmer to have different technologies to use for different tasks.

Again, I am still waiting for valid arguments as to why many different technologies makes Windows programming complicated.

(I agree that Windows programming WAS complicated, but not because there were many technologies, but because the integration of them was messy. If you post in these forums, you're going to have back up what you say with valid arguments).

<STRONG>
How am I not trying to gain opinions when the final sentence of my first post was "Do you guys think we have it easier w/ just out Carbon and Cocoa?" which obviously asks for people's opinions of Mac vs. Windows development.</STRONG>

And you included the smiley for what reason exactly? Looked like a troll to me. But why continue arguing about whether or not it was a troll? Why don't you come up with some valid arguments instead?

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: hushmail ]

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: hushmail ]

[swoodnj2]

I got out of Windows development a year or so ago...I don't have all the info on .NET, but if I'm not mistaken it's based on a runtime env. like Java...if this is true I can't help but wonder why MS wants to do things that way...for embedded/wireless devices? Or strictly for distributed computing? I have to say that from the time I got into Windows development (Win 3.1) to when I got out it has become an increasingly more complicated development environment. Now they had to throw another language in too (C sharp)! I really enjoy the simplicity of Cocoa development over any form of Windows, and I also enjoy that the tools are free versus costing an arm and a leg!

Steve W

[hushmail]

Originally posted by swoodnj2:
<STRONG>I got out of Windows development a year or so ago...I don't have all the info on .NET, but if I'm not mistaken it's based on a runtime env. like Java...if this is true I can't help but wonder why MS wants to do things that way...for embedded/wireless devices? Or strictly for distributed computing?</STRONG>

Why make assumptions when you don't have to? Unlike certain companies who wrap their developers in NDAs, Microsoft has had lots of information available on their site for a long time.

<STRONG>I have to say that from the time I got into Windows development (Win 3.1) to when I got out it has become an increasingly more complicated development environment.</STRONG>

Yes, there was chaos, but with .NET it's pretty tidy.

<STRONG>Now they had to throw another language in too (C sharp)!

</STRONG>

Choice only complicates things for people who are unable to think rationally. What's so complicated about a new language? You read up on its strengths and weaknesses, and then decide whether to use it or not. Not complicated at all, unless one can't read

<STRONG>I really enjoy the simplicity of Cocoa development over any form of Windows</STRONG>

I haven't worked with WinForms in .NET so I can't debate its merits, but I think Cocoa is kickass too. The fact that Cocoa is based on 10 year old technology makes it even more impressive. The only thing that pisses me off is that the main event loop has to run in the main thread. Completely braindead! Same problem in Carbon. Hope Apple fixes this soon.

<STRONG>
and I also enjoy that the tools are free versus costing an arm and a leg!
</STRONG>

Yes, excellent move by Apple. Microsoft are trying very hard to get into universities with .NET, so they've made the .NET framework available for free. However, if you're seriously getting into .NET development, you'll probably want Visual Studio.NET as well. Quite expensive for non-students.

[jwblase]

Jeez.

Even the dev forums devolve into a "did too/did not" *****-fest.

and i thought they were pretty much immune from the crap the other forums deal with.

JB

[hushmail]

Originally posted by jwblase:
<STRONG>Even the dev forums devolve into a "did too/did not" *****-fest.

and i thought they were pretty much immune from the crap the other forums deal with.
</STRONG>

Well, I guess it's too much to ask people to come up with valid arguments and back them up with evidence. x86 people are classified as trolls when they say 'Mac sucks', but for some reason that doesn't happen when it's the other way around. Go figure.

If you're not happy with the current situation of people demanding valid arguments and calling you on your trolls, then complain to Apple, they're the ones who invited us UNIX folks

[swoodnj2]

Geez, folks are getting rather touchy. I was simply offering my thoughts as somebody who has developed on both platforms. I made it rather clear up front I was in the dark on the latest .NET stuff...And I was simply thinking out loud as I wondered about the whole runtime model..If there are people here that can enlighten us on .NET, please do so! If I wanted to start a rant fest I would have pointed out that .NET/C# is a java ripoff and a way for MS to continue to try and take over the world...

Steve W

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by swoodnj2:
<STRONG>Geez, folks are getting rather touchy.
</STRONG>

Not folks. Just hushmail.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by swoodnj2:
<STRONG>Geez, folks are getting rather touchy. I was simply offering my thoughts as somebody who has developed on both platforms. I made it rather clear up front I was in the dark on the latest .NET stuff...And I was simply thinking out loud as I wondered about the whole runtime model..If there are people here that can enlighten us on .NET, please do so!</STRONG>

Did you actually read what I wrote? .NET is very well documented both at Microsoft and other sites. Google.com is your friend. If you didn't notice, there are actually people discussing technical details in this forum. Why on earth are we supposed to educate you on the basics of .NET, when you can do so yourself easily?

Nobody's getting touchy, but I think several of us would appreciate if people started backing up their statements with valid arguments. If one doesn't have valid arguments, one shouldn't post at all. The level of quality in these discussions would also increase if people stopped making assumptions. If you're not sure about something, and you can't find anything on the net about it, please do post your question(s) here. If however what you are asking about comes up as the first match when searching on google, well... you get the picture.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>Not folks. Just hushmail.</STRONG>

After x posts, you are still unable to come up with a valid argument as to why many technologies makes Windows programming complicated? Pathetic.

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>

Actually, it is part of .NET. SOAP is used in the following areas: .NET Remoting, ASP .NET Web Services, and ATL Web Services.

Yes you have SOAP in MacOS as well, but you're able to create and deploy web services much faster in the Windows world. What we lack are good development tools for this under MacOS.
</STRONG>

SOAP is W3C standard.
The idea isn't that new.
We have SOAP in OS X now!

People, I urge you to start using the tools that allow you to do real platform independent work right now.

I have written SOAP services on OS X since last June. I have deployed them on Solaris and Linux.

There is this great little language nobody here seems to want to acknowledge: it's called JAVA.

SOAP, XML-RPC, RMI, EJB, Swing, AWT address all that you have mentioned.
And the best part is that via the Java Community Process, you can actually have input into the future of the Platform. You don't have to take what "they" give you anymore.


Oh, and with Forte 4 Java, I can make webservices that are more useful, just as fast as anyone using Visual Letmethinkforyou.Net .....I mean, Visual Studio.Net

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Kristoff ]

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
<STRONG>SOAP is W3C standard.
The idea isn't that new.
We have SOAP in OS X now!</STRONG>

I didn't claim otherwise...

<STRONG>Oh, and with Forte 4 Java, I can make webservices that are more useful, just as fast as anyone using Visual Letmethinkforyou.Net .....I mean, Visual Studio.Net</STRONG>

More useful? What exactly do you mean? Are you saying Visual Studio.NET restricts what you can do with web services, compared to other tools?
As for speed, I can create and deploy a Hello World web service in 25 seconds using Visual Studio .NET. Kind of pointless to argue about actually, since most of the time is spent actually writing the web service, not creating the project. Which is why .NET is a huge improvement over the MS SOAP Toolkit. With the .NET framework, writing web services is snappy

I've done some web services in perl using SOAPLite before, but never in Java. I'll have to download Forte 4 Java and give it a shot.

[Justin W. Williams]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>

After x posts, you are still unable to come up with a valid argument as to why many technologies makes Windows programming complicated? Pathetic.</STRONG>

Do you have any sort of brain? Jesus christ. If you would read everything I have posted, you could EASILY understand my argument. Like I said before, you are nothing but a troll looking to start a fight. if you want to be a Microsoft fanboy about .Net, that is fine. To each his own, but you are acting like a complete fool with your smart ass remarks.

[aleph_null]

The only thing that pisses me off is that the main event loop has to run in the main thread. Completely braindead! Same problem in Carbon. Hope Apple fixes this soon.

i can't think of any reason this would be an unreasonable restriction. when would it be a problem?

um ... please note that i'm asking in a very calm, friendly, inside-voice.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Justin W. Williams:
<STRONG>Do you have any sort of brain? Jesus christ. If you would read everything I have posted, you could EASILY understand my argument. Like I said before, you are nothing but a troll looking to start a fight. if you want to be a Microsoft fanboy about .Net, that is fine. To each his own, but you are acting like a complete fool with your smart ass remarks.</STRONG>

I responded to your "daunting" argument with the following:

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>First of all, you still haven't explained why it makes Windows programming complicated. If you manage to come up with a valid argument before the G5 is released, I'll be surprised.

One must not familiarize themselves with all those technologies to be a serious programmer. Can you please explain why exactly a game programmer should familiarize him/herself with ADO(.NET) before he/she can consider him/herself a serious programmer?

You argument is like saying it's daunting to buy a Mac. I mean, there's 4 different Macs: iBook, PowerBook, iMac, PowerMac. So many different things! So daunting! Of course not. People have different needs depending on their tasks. It's not daunting for a programmer to have different technologies to use for different tasks.

Again, I am still waiting for valid arguments as to why many different technologies makes Windows programming complicated.

(I agree that Windows programming WAS complicated, but not because there were many technologies, but because the integration of them was messy. If you post in these forums, you're going to have back up what you say with valid arguments).</STRONG>

and you have not yet responded to this. If you don't, I can only conclude that you also think it's daunting to buy a Mac because there are several different models.

What exactly is it that I have said that indicates that I am a "Microsoft fanboy"?

Anyway, keep on trolling, it's obviously the only thing you're able to do.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by aleph_null:
<STRONG>i can't think of any reason this would be an unreasonable restriction. when would it be a problem?</STRONG>

Well, it's usually not a problem for someone who's making MacOS only applications. However, for cross platform applications it's quite annoying.
If your application is heavily modularized, more than module might need to create windows, and if these modules run in seperate threads, you're out of luck.

Hopefully Apple will fix this restriction soon.

<STRONG>um ... please note that i'm asking in a very calm, friendly, inside-voice. </STRONG>

[swoodnj2]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>
Nobody's getting touchy, but I think several of us would appreciate if people started backing up their statements with valid arguments. If one doesn't have valid arguments, one shouldn't post at all. The level of quality in these discussions would also increase if people stopped making assumptions. If you're not sure about something, and you can't find anything on the net about it, please do post your question(s) here. If however what you are asking about comes up as the first match when searching on google, well... you get the picture.</STRONG>

I don't believe I made any statements that required backing up. If I made a troll-like, accusational statement then I would expect to be flamed. I thought my statements were typical banter for a forum like this. If one comes to this forum for technical information only, they will not click on topics like "Windows vs. Mac development", they will click on topics like "How to display Sheets in Cocoa"...

if (poster==hushmail)
{
skip to next poster
}

A whole 24 posts and he thinks he's the moderator. Sheesh.


Steve W

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: swoodnj2 ]

[hushmail]

Originally posted by swoodnj2:
<STRONG>I don't believe I made any statements that required backing up. If I made a troll-like, accusational statement then I would expect to be flamed.</STRONG>

I wasn't referring to you, but merely commenting on "people getting touchy".

<STRONG>I thought my statements were typical banter for a forum like this.</STRONG>

Repeat after me: Assumption is the mother of all ****ups. If you are unable to understand this or live by this rule, then you should find another profession. You made assumptions about .NET when it would have taken you 3 minutes to look this information up at Microsoft's website or at other sites easily found with Google.

<STRONG> If one comes to this forum for technical information only, they will not click on topics like "Windows vs. Mac development", they will click on topics like "How to display Sheets in Cocoa"...</STRONG>

This is the Developer forum, not the Lounge. A discussion like "Windows vs. Mac development" should have been about the strengths and weaknesses of each development platform, but was from the beginning obviously nothing but a troll from someone who had no intention of actually learning anything.

<STRONG>A whole 24 posts and he thinks he's the moderator. Sheesh.</STRONG>

This is the developer forum, please take your trolls and assumptions elsewhere.

[davecom]

It's not 3 minutes, and I don't have the time, why don't you just share your great knowledge of .NET . You obviously have the time to argue about lesser things.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by davecom:
<STRONG>It's not 3 minutes, and I don't have the time, why don't you just share your great knowledge of .NET . You obviously have the time to argue about lesser things.</STRONG>

You didn't search because you didn't have the time, yet you claim it doesn't take 3 minutes. How do you know that if you didn't search? Doesn't make any sense.

If you did search for the information but wasn't able to find it in less than 3 minutes, then please post the keywords you used, and I'll help you improve your searching skills.

As for spending time arguing about lesser things, you claim you didn't have the time to actually search for the info, yet you had the time to post in this forum about the fact that you didn't have the time. Right!

Oh, btw, I never claimed to have "great knowledge" about .NET, but don't let such facts keep you from trolling though.

If anyone else is interested in the information, but is unable to find it, please let me know what steps you took to find it, and I'll be more than happy to post both the information and the steps I took to find it.

[kangoo_boo]

hushmail STFU.
annoying kid (yeah this will relaunch the thread even futher, so now, i propose to close it and open a new one watcha think ? ah yes we need some "thread owner" stuff so the owner could "ban" people from i'ts own thread

[hushmail]

Originally posted by kangoo_boo:
<STRONG>hushmail STFU.
annoying kid (yeah this will relaunch the thread even futher, so now, i propose to close it and open a new one watcha think ? ah yes we need some "thread owner" stuff so the owner could "ban" people from i'ts own thread </STRONG>

If you weren't such a pathetic troll, this thread would probably have ended by now. So here's what I propose: that trolls such as yourself grow up. "Watcha think?"

As for banning people, I doubt that will ever happen. This is an American forum, and even though it is a private one, which means they can ban any speech, I think the moderators respect freedom of speech. So you don't have to worry that they will start banning people who are incapable of discussing and who resort to telling others to STFU.

[Chaaaosss]

Damn, I second everyone else. hushmail, it's so ridiculous that you're beating up on this guy just for posting that he thought it seemed Windows programming had gotten more complicated.

That's ALL he said. Maybe you could jump over to another thread and yell at someone who needs to be yelled at instead of picking a fight with someone just making a passing comment. Is it really necessary to just lash out at him for just making an observation? It's just an observation, not a personal attack, not an "argument," just a weightless, meaningless, "Wow, I thought this was interesting and I thought I'd share it." There must be a nicer, more personable way to deal with what *you* think is complete immaturity and a lack of proper manners and foresight. There must be.

This forum will prosper as well if people weren't so quick to attack. If you want serious discussion of Mac OS X Programming techniques, head on over to Omnigroup's website. If you'd looked at the previous posts in *this* forum, you'd see that there are hardly any groundbreaking discussions about development on OS X but mostly people trying to get started.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by Chaaaosss:
<STRONG>Damn, I second everyone else. hushmail, it's so ridiculous that you're beating up on this guy just for posting that he thought it seemed Windows programming had gotten more complicated.</STRONG>

This is a discussion forum, not a blog.

<STRONG>
That's ALL he said. Maybe you could jump over to another thread and yell at someone who needs to be yelled at instead of picking a fight with someone just making a passing comment. Is it really necessary to just lash out at him for just making an observation? It's just an observation, not a personal attack, not an "argument," just a weightless, meaningless, "Wow, I thought this was interesting and I thought I'd share it." There must be a nicer, more personable way to deal with what *you* think is complete immaturity and a lack of proper manners and foresight. There must be.
</STRONG>

1. He did more than just make an observation.
2. The actual observation was that there were many technologies listed in the billboards during the install of VS.NET.
3. He claimed Windows programming was complicated.
4. His argument was that the existance of many technologies makes Windows programming complicated.
5. He then followed up with his "daunting" reasoning.

The fact is, he started a discussion. If he doesn't agree with me with regards to my response to his "daunting" reasoning, I would like to remind him that I am still eagerly waiting for his response.

I am discussing in this forum (well, I'm trying to, it's a bit hard when the person you're discussing with is unable/unwilling to respond). I intend to continue doing so no matter what you or "everyone else" thinks. If you don't agree with my arguments, then I invite you to join the discussion.

<STRONG>
This forum will prosper as well if people weren't so quick to attack. If you want serious discussion of Mac OS X Programming techniques, head on over to Omnigroup's website. If you'd looked at the previous posts in *this* forum, you'd see that there are hardly any groundbreaking discussions about development on OS X but mostly people trying to get started.</STRONG>

This forum will most likely never prosper, simply because there are better and more efficient ways to communicate for developers. Omnigroup's mailing lists is one example. There is a reason for the non-existing prospering Windows/GNU/Linux/etc development forums.

However, even if this forum will not prosper, the quality can certainly improve. And if you are interested in improving the quality of this forum, why don't you stop starting meta-debates? I usually don't respond to meta-debates, but considering which forum I'm posting to, I'm making an exception. Seeing as how quite a few people here don't even know what ad-hominem means, I can't reasonably except them to know what a meta-debate is.

[daftpig]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>

If you weren't such a pathetic troll, this thread would probably have ended by now. So here's what I propose: that trolls such as yourself grow up. "Watcha think?"

As for banning people, I doubt that will ever happen. This is an American forum, and even though it is a private one, which means they can ban any speech, I think the moderators respect freedom of speech. So you don't have to worry that they will start banning people who are incapable of discussing and who resort to telling others to STFU.</STRONG>

That sounds just like what someone's foreign policy will turn out. There was nothing wrong with the initial posts of people who professed to have limited knowledge. The problem is that someone seems confrontational most of the time. So much for equality. It's people like these that make the West look stupid in Asia.

[hushmail]

Originally posted by daftpig:
<STRONG>There was nothing wrong with the initial posts of people who professed to have limited knowledge.</STRONG>

He professed to have limited knowledge, yet he claimed Windows programming was complicated. He then went on to claim that Mac development was easier because we just have Carbon and Cocoa (yes, technically it was a question, but the smiley made it more than just a question).

This is what is commonly classified as a troll. For some reason a lot of Mac users are only able to spot trolling by x86/Windows users.

Everyone has limited knowledge in different areas. What seperates us from the trolls is that we don't claim things based on our limited knowledge and then fail to back up our arguments.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: hushmail ]

[daftpig]

Originally posted by hushmail:
<STRONG>

He professed to have limited knowledge, yet he claimed Windows programming was complicated. He then went on to claim that Mac development was easier because we just have Carbon and Cocoa (yes, technically it was a question, but the smiley made it more than just a question).

This is what is commonly classified as a troll. For some reason a lot of Mac users are only able to spot trolling by x86/Windows users.

Everyone has limited knowledge in different areas. What seperates us from the trolls is that we don't claim things based on our limited knowledge and then fail to back up our arguments.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: hushmail ]</STRONG>

I went back to re-read his initial post. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that squabble at hand seems to arise from the fact that his statements were largely unqualified. He used rather strong words like "must" to describe what he thought are difficulties for Windows developers. The unstated grounds for his claims were that they reflected what was his impression of the situation for Windows developers.

I think, the reason why those who are in the know would be irritated by such statements, is because of a mismatch of expectations. The persona you assumed when opening the thread as opposed to the persona he adopted was very much different. His persona seemed (to me) to lean towards a chit-chat-like approach whereas you did assume the role of a developer ready to critic the arguments put forth by the proponent, on a more technical basis. He did not expect this sort of response to his post and nor did you expect his sort of post in a thread with such a title.

For my own observations of the forums.macnn.com: It's much more of a coffee joint chat session than a usual developer discussion would be. When I talk abt mac stuff, I get responses from my comp sci friends that are similar to those yourself have put forth in this thread. But because we know one another (as opposed to the lifeless nicks here), we understand that we come from diff backgrounds - I'm always the ignorant one coz I have a Fine Art, Political Sci backgrd, we rarely get into squabbles presented here. It's a noted problem with online discussions, that things are often not seen in another's context and immense unhappiness often results. What I mean is that macnn is really not the sort of developer discussion you'd like to participate in (assumption).

Why people post seemingly dumb questions when the answers can easily be found is arguable. But my take from my own perspective is that it's often easier to get definitive information (eg. slashdot) from people than look and search online when for people like myself, have no real technical knowledge/basics to fall back on.

Your insistence that people should not make unsubstantiated arguments is however very encouraging IMHO. There is a tendency for people to 'say' things on the net and not bother explaining how they derived their statements simply because they see that the net has no bearing or relevance to their real lives. I see the importance of you insisting on a backing up of arguments because it is an expectation that is severely lacking in local online forums in Singapore.

I hope I haven't any unsubstantiated claims. =) I'm not one of those super bright Singaporeans who score As for argumentation writing.

P.S. About your point on making statements based on limited knowledge (you just made me recall my Philo module and Euthyphro in Plato's Dialogues):

1) No one has perfect knowledge. This means that everyone has imperfect knowledge. You have already acknowledged this in your statement "Everyone has limited knowledge in different areas."

2) What is knowledge? Knowledge can be defined as a proven hypothesis (theory) supported by a consistent set of observations. This means that knowledge changes with changed observations. Given that idiosyncratic factors are at play and that it is commonly observed that people only accept observations as reliable if they fit into their value sets, statements that people make and are necessarily based on what they acknowledge as reliable observations, which to them is knowledge.

Given that premises 1) and 2) are logical:

Everyone has imperfect (limited) knowledge and however imperfect the knowledge may be, they accept that they can make statements based on their knowledge (however limited) because the observations they derive their knowledge from fit into their own prejudices and assumptions and are thus regarded as being true.

Conclusion: What then is wrong in the initial posts of this thread is not that they made claims based on limited knowledge but that they failed to back up their arguments with whatever limited knowledge they based their arguments on.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: daftpig ]

[hushmail]

Originally posted by daftpig:
<STRONG>Conclusion: What then is wrong in the initial posts of this thread is not that they made claims based on limited knowledge but that they failed to back up their arguments with whatever limited knowledge they based their arguments on.</STRONG>

Yes, that was the problem with the original post. As for the rest of your post, I agree with it entirely. Hopefully others will learn from what you have written and take it into consideration the next time they are posting in these forums.