[thanatos]

I have been trying DP4 for quite a long time now and since I like to toy with with the guts of every system, I spent a lot of time compiling Unix programs with the built in cc compiler. The cc or gcc compiler is standard on all Unix systems and I have been using it a lot with Linux in the past.

I have compiled free source code from the web in DP4 like chatservers, webstores, utilities and learning a lot of stuff about programming and Unix.

You can imagine my dissapointment when I got the Public Beta and found that the compiling tools where gone! They where removed and now the only way to get them is to become an Apple ADC Member which cost 400$ / year just to get the Developer CD. That realy sucks!!!

Apple has in the past had concerns about developers deserting the mac platform and now they do this! The gcc or cc tools are an inseparable part of an Unix system, without them the system is crippled.

Ok... ok... MacOSX is a consumer OS, but they could at least have the installation of the BSD development stuff as an option on the PB CD.

Apple has a bad habit of removing all good stuff from the OS and I wan't be surprised if the next thing they remove will be Terminal.app (I've heard rumors about that).

Lets tell Apple what we think about all this http://www.apple.com/macosx/beta/feedback.html

[Marshall]

Originally posted by thanatos:
Lets tell Apple what we think about all this
http://www.apple.com/macosx/beta/feedback.html

Oh, no, not another one...

This has been brought up time and time again on these boards and elsewhere on the net. Does no one take the time to look around?

First of all, a brief look at Apple's developer web site would reveal the following:
"Note: The Mac OS X Beta Developer Tools will be available for download to ADC Online Members in mid-October." ADC Online is a free program.

Second, there are several articles on the net describing how to copy Darwin's compiler tools to Mac OS X. One of them is at http://www.macaddict.com/content/news/2000/09/13/18709 .

Finally, you complain that the only way to get the developer tools is by joining a $400 program...as though DP4 didn't require joining the same program. If you actually owned a legal copy of DP4, your developer tools CD would have arrived with your copy of the Public Beta. As it stands, you're angry about Apple taking something out of the PB that was in an operating system that you shouldn't have had in the first place.

In short, you're calling for a mass mailing asking Apple for something they're already providing, and you're admitting to software piracy at the same time. If you would just take a few minutes, even if it's just punching in "gcc" or "developer tools" in MacNN's forum search box, you'd save yourself a lot of trouble, and you'd save others from having to see the same topics repeated over and over again.


[This message has been edited by Marshall (edited 09-24-2000).]

[daqman]

Just for you information I have had NOTHING from the ADC. I joined nearly two months ago and have had NO CDs, no D4 no beta NOTHING. I called Apple two weeks ago and was told to be patient! I paid the $40 for the beta and am trying to get some sort of C compiler on the thing.
Anyway don't be too hard on this guy. He may be in the state I am in. I've paid $400 + $40 and still can't run cc ;(

[daqman]

Sorry. I re-read the original post and the poster does clearly say that he has been using DR4 for some time but then goes on to complain about having to pay $400. This implies that, unlike me, he hasn't paid the $400 to get legit. access to DR4.

a C compiler isn't standard on "all" unices by the way, you have to pay a whole heap of dollars for the privaledge of using gcc on IRIX for example

[thanatos]

You are missing the point here. The compiler tools are an unseparable part of the BSD layer. Systems like Linux have those tools on the CD from the begining. Does Apple think that Mac users are dumber than Linux users so they can't use a compiler? Why do we have to rely on hacks on the internet to put back stuff in the system that where there from the begining? Why should we pay 400$ just to get the tools now? Why all the trouble to have to get an online member and wait until mid-October so you can download it? What about modem users? They will spend hours and probably days downloading...

Oh and about the DP4, I friend of mine is a developer. He is using his DP4 as a webserver and he has given me an account on that computer. I'm connecting with telnet to it, compiling programs and CGI-scripts. So don't try to moralize...

[Scott_H]

I know IRIX doesn't ship with the C compiler. Since the days of recompiling the kernal are largley over they don't include them anymore.

I'm going to move this over to the Mac OS X Support forum. Click through to find your post.

[Marshall]

Originally posted by thanatos:
Oh and about the DP4, I friend of mine is a developer. He is using his DP4 as a webserver and he has given me an account on that computer. I'm connecting with telnet to it, compiling programs and CGI-scripts. So don't try to moralize...

So then your friend will be receiving the developer tools CD, and can install the tools on the copy of the Public Beta that he'll be receiving. Right?

You say that modem users will spend "days" downloading the tools...but all you seem to be concerned about are the command-line tools like cc. These aren't exactly huge files. I don't know if Apple will have separate packages (command-line vs. PB/IB tools) or not, but if they did, it wouldn't take long at all to download them. Even if it was all packaged together, there are far larger downloads on the Internet right now that modem users are receiving than the Mac OS X developer tools.

I agree that a compiler is very useful if your primary interest is the UNIX side of Mac OS X, since working with open source apps often requires you to compile the app for your platform...but it's not an essential part of Mac OS X. Even so, Apple will be providing the tools for free next month, and if that's really too long for you to wait, you can copy over the command-line tools from Darwin or probably DP4.

My point is that you're complaining about something that has already been voiced many, many times. Furthermore, readily available responses have already been made to your complaints.

Finally, in response to whether or not Apple thinks Mac users are dumber than Linux users: I know some very intelligent folks who have no need whatsoever for a compiler, and have absolutely no desire to run Linux. They have better things to do with their time than edit makefiles and figure out which directory to put binaries in. The fundamental difference between most Mac users I know and most Linux users I know is not one of intelligence, it's one of interest. The Linux users I know want to know about every aspect of the system, and to control every aspect. The Mac users I know just want their computer to do tasks like word processing, Internet browsing, page designing, photo editing, and so forth, without making them feel lost in technicalities. The computer for them exists as a means to an end, not an end in itself.

So no, Apple doesn't think their users are too stupid to use a compiler. They think that most of their users have other interests, and that those who do care about compilers will download the (free) developer package. In your case, this means waiting a few weeks. Is it really worth encouraging mass "feedback" to Apple over such a short timeframe?