[4.669]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...551036,00.html

E-mail this moron and set him straight,I just did.Remember,part of the battle against terrorism is ideological.

EDIT:Mods I meant to post this in lounge,sorry. Rick

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: 4.669 ]

[Ghoser777]

I'm not sure what your so mad about. He takes a very defendable position, that the US, through it use of power as the world hegemon, helped created an environment that led up to the terrorist attack IN NYC and DC. He's not saying that the attack is just or right, but that we helped cause the situation.

I agree with the author for the most part - responding to terrorism with violence is only going to incite other countries to be mad at us.

I just wonder if people realize that terrorist groups do these things for a reason. They are not just random acts of violence like politians would like you to think. Usually they are violent forms of protest, many times that are only turned to when a group is ignored in every other availabe forum.

F-bacher

[lenz]

Ghoser, I couldn't agree with you more. Most people are ignorant to the crimes that the US has committed because of it's deliberate manupilation of the media. Remember Christina Amanpour, CNN's renown reporter? She quit her post becuase she's was so frustrated about how they pick and chose bits of the truth to tell to the people.

All this stuff the media will have you think is not true. The bottom line is 4(or so?) years ago, Osama in laden and his followers told the US if the 5000 troops occupying their holy land didn't leave that they would launch a holy war against them. He gave them atleast 2 years time to meet his demands but they didn't. Do you think people are sacrificing their lives just because they're upset that the US is so powerful? I think not!

The attack on civilians is unacceptable, but the US has done a fair share of killing innocent people. Remember the casualties in Iraq of civilians and children? How about the Hiroshima bomb? It's widely known now that the bomb was dropped after the Japs had already surrendered. Why doesn't anyone care about the thousands of lives lost there?

[davecom]

Your all out of place! This is NOT what you talk about after such a tragedy. Instead of babbling, go give blood.

I didn't expect this kind of talk from any freedom loving person after such a tragedy.

You seem to be offering some kind of justification for what the terrorists did through your talk of the US not removing 5000 troops from their holy land. Whether or not that is true, and whether or not that was done in cruelty, it does not justify the death of ANY people.

If it wasn't for the bombing of Iraq which did kill several civilians biological warfare may have occured. It's called casualties of war, and it's part of the harsh reality of any military action.

I'm disgusted and hurt by both of you. You wouldn't be speaking the same way if people you knew were "missing", as some of the people I know are. Either way you disgust me and I suppose many other readers too.

[4.669]

Exactly.A lot of people I went to high school with work in downtown NYC,what enraged me about the article was the suggestion that the people killed deserved to be.I also found equally abhorrent the suggestion that all Americans are ignorant sheep.He failed to mention,for example,that the reason we went to Yugoslavia was to save thousands of Muslims that were being murdered by Milosevic.

[Ghoser777]

Note: I said that Bin Laden wasn't just in his actions.

Oh wait, that would be just in OUR EYES. That's because we're eurocentric and don't care about the rest of the world. Sure we can bomb the hell out of Bin Laden, kill a bunch of his people, and then we'll feel so good about it.

But WHY he attacked us (if it is him) is far more important than getting back at him. If we can understand the why, then we can prevent millions of future Americans being hurt and killed by terrorist attacks. Dear lord, is it remotely possible that something the US did provoked this attack?

As an American, I do not approve of the terrorists means. Killing should never be justified. But these terrorists are fighting a war for what they believe in. If the US is doing anything to undermine what they believe in, especially if it's simply the right to be left alone, then we should expect a response. If we ignore their non-violent protests, then a violent protest is almost assured.

Give blood... but let's also try to stop this from every happening again,
F-bacher

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by 4.669:
<STRONG>Exactly.A lot of people I went to high school with work in downtown NYC,what enraged me about the article was the suggestion that the people killed deserved to be.</STRONG>

That's not what the article is saying at all. It's suggesting that the actions of the US helped give cause, reason, and justification in the terrorists eyes.

I also found equally abhorrent the suggestion that all Americans are ignorant sheep.He failed to mention,for example,that the reason we went to Yugoslavia was to save thousands of Muslims that were being murdered by Milosevic.

You're right, we're all not ignorant sheep, but most don't even realize that the US was buddy-buddy w/Saddam before the Gulf War and we had originally promised NOT to attack Iraq if it invaded Kuwait, who were stealing oil from Iraq.

I fail to see the meaing of your second sentence. Maybe clarify it and I'll try to respond.

No one lose their cool. This is an important dialogue.

F-bacher

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Ghoser777 ]

[Ghoser777]

Your all out of place! This is NOT what you talk about after such a tragedy. Instead of babbling, go give blood.

I plead the first amendment. They have too much blood right now, so that wouldn't do any good. I'm not babling, I'm trying to make an insightful argument about the possible causes of tuesdays terrorist attck.

I didn't expect this kind of talk from any freedom loving person after such a tragedy.

Heaven forbid, freedom lovers may try to rationaly analyze a situation.

You seem to be offering some kind of justification for what the terrorists did through your talk of the US not removing 5000 troops from their holy land. Whether or not that is true, and whether or not that was done in cruelty, it does not justify the death of ANY people.

Yep. So the revolutionary war should never been fought. No civil war to keep the union together and to free blacks.

If it wasn't for the bombing of Iraq which did kill several civilians biological warfare may have occured. It's called casualties of war, and it's part of the harsh reality of any military action.

Maybe if we didn't tell Iraw one thing than turn around a beat the crap out of them, we wouldn't be in that situation. We provoked Sadam initially.

I'm disgusted and hurt by both of you. You wouldn't be speaking the same way if people you knew were "missing", as some of the people I know are. Either way you disgust me and I suppose many other readers too.

I belive this would be called letting ur emotions get in the way of rational though.

F-bacher

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Ghoser777 ]

[Apocalypse]

Something I find odd is that the way Bush refers to terrorism whenever he has spoken recently. He seems to think that it is some sort of entity. I fail to see how bombing the hell out of middle-eastern countries is going to stop terrorism. I can easily see how it will escalate it, though. Don't give people a reason to hate you and they might never start. Terrorism is the result of a strong-willed leader that is driven to extremes. It will happen forever and the US must be joking if they think that it can be stopped. The important thing is to ensure that you can bring the perpetrators to justice (this does not mean starting WW3, use the UN instead) and that you don't make any more enemies in eliminating one (ie if we kill any more of their civilians, they will kill more of ours).

Let's also not forget how this is exactly what started WW1, just on a larger scale: An act of terrorism puts two countries against one another. The mobilize their own military forces and bring in those of their allies. Next thing you know, the entire developed world is fighting it out.

I sure as hell hope that your leader doesn't let his itchy trigger finger get the best of him. My country is in NATO, as well, so we are bound to any decision he makes (since they could somehow classify this as an act of war).

Time to start building the bomb shelters. As much as it is unfortunate that several thousand are dead, Bush is about to sign the death warrants for another few million world-wide.

Worst part is that we have no say in our own lack of future,
Jeff.

[Millennium]

All this stuff the media will have you think is not true. The bottom line is 4(or so?) years ago, Osama in laden and his followers told the US if the 5000 troops occupying their holy land didn't leave that they would launch a holy war against them. He gave them atleast 2 years time to meet his demands but they didn't. Do you think people are sacrificing their lives just because they're upset that the US is so powerful? I think not!

The only remaining presence the US has in the Middle East is in those countries whose governments have asked us to stay. I would think that an explicit request from a government to stay ought to override a madman's demands for us to leave.

It's widely known now that the bomb was dropped after the Japs had already surrendered. Why doesn't anyone care about the thousands of lives lost there?

People do care. More than you think. But where the heck did you hear about the bomb being dropped after the Japanese had already surrendered? That just isn't true.

[EDIT: In retrospect, perhaps this thread should be moved to the Lounge; it fits better there, given the current discussions...]

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Millennium ]

[davecom]

The problem is ghoser, that you analyze the situation like a machine, not a human. Maybe your short memory forgot that Saddam was provoked because he DID have or was developing biological weapons against a UN treaty. Everyone puts emotion into these attacks. Even President Bush was just about crying in his press conference yesterday.

You seem to be offering some kind of justification for what the terrorists did through your talk of the US not removing 5000 troops from their holy land. Whether or not that is true, and whether or not that was done in cruelty, it does not justify the death of ANY people.



Yep. So the revolutionary war should never been fought. No civil war to keep the union together and to free blacks.

I'm sorry that you need to use such different events in comparison. You could've just admitted you were wrong, instead of embarrassing yourself.


There was no need to tell me that there's too much blood, go help some other way.

Please don't speak about things you don't know, that insult so many people.

[Ghoser777]

The problem is ghoser, that you analyze the situation like a machine, not a human. Maybe your short memory forgot that Saddam was provoked because he DID have or was developing biological weapons against a UN treaty. Everyone puts emotion into these attacks. Even President Bush was just about crying in his press conference yesterday.

??? My memory may be short, potentially because I was 8 when Iraq invaded Kuwait. But I'm not sure what your point about Saddam being proved because he was developing bioweapons against a UN treaty. What does that half to do with the US not keeping its word? Maybe I'm confused about which event you are specifically refering to.

Oh, and HOW am I being a machine. I'm being logical, if you equate that to being a machine. I'm also being pragmatic. The people who died in the WTC are dead, and we can't bring them back (of course, we can still save some that are still alive in the rubble, but we're doing that currently), but we shouldn't let them die in vein. If we can analyze government policy and come to the realization that something our government did made it highlet likely that an extremist group would attack us, then wouldn't it be wise to, if at all possible, tailor our foreing policy differently in the future? If this would save future lives, it could be very well worth it. I'm not talking about letting terrorists run our country; women shouldn't just let men rape them. BUT, it would probably not be wise for women to walk down a dark road in the middle of night on the wrong side of town in high heels that make loud clicky sounds. If a women gets raped, it is NEVER JUSTIFIED. Fine. But that doesn't mean she can't take precautions to prevent the situation from ever occuring.

I'm sorry that you need to use such different events in comparison. You could've just admitted you were wrong, instead of embarrassing yourself.

There was no need to tell me that there's too much blood, go help some other way.

Please don't speak about things you don't know, that insult so many people.

??? Atleast make an argument, instead of just telling me I'm wrong. Hey, I might be, but you don't tell me why.

F-bacher

[warnergt]

Originally posted by lenz:
<STRONG>The bottom line is 4(or so?) years ago, Osama in laden and his followers told the US if the 5000 troops occupying their holy land didn't leave that they would launch a holy war against them. He gave them atleast 2 years time to meet his demands but they didn't. Do you think people are sacrificing their lives just because they're upset that the US is so powerful? I think not!

The attack on civilians is unacceptable, but the US has done a fair share of killing innocent people. Remember the casualties in Iraq of civilians and children? How about the Hiroshima bomb? It's widely known now that the bomb was dropped after the Japs had already surrendered. Why doesn't anyone care about the thousands of lives lost there?</STRONG>

lenz, you are a dumb ass.

What gives Osama bin Laden any authority to tell anybody to get out of "their holy land"? We had just as much authority to tell him to get out of Afghanistan [that is, none]. What gives him any authority? His billions of dollars? He is nothing but a criminal murderer.

I remember Iraq. They invaded a neighboring Arab contry. They were off their rockers even by Middle Eastern standards. They started the war and we finished it. They have noone to blame but themselves.

Do we remember he Hiroshima bomb? Do you remember Pearl Harbor? The Japanese started the war with the U.S. The Japanese had NOT already surrendered by the time we bombed Hiroshima. In fact, even the Hiroshima bomb did not get them to surrender. We had to drop another one on Nagasaki. Do you remember Nagasaki? Those, as yourself, who try to claim that the Japanese had surrendered are living in a mythical world that attempts to rewrite history.

If you knew your history, you would know that the United States has done more than any other nation to bring peace, democracy and justice to our world. At times, it has been costly. And this goal has never been acheived by ignoring terrorism.

We don't enjoy being the world's policeman and, at times, we are hated for it. But the world is a much better place with us than without us.

[Ghoser777]

I remember Iraq. They invaded a neighboring Arab contry. They were off their rockers even by Middle Eastern standards. They started the war and we finished it. They have noone to blame but themselves.

Cross apply my previous response. We gave Iraq the go ahead to invade.

Do we remember he Hiroshima bomb? Do you remember Pearl Harbor? The Japanese started the war with the U.S. The Japanese had NOT already surrendered by the time we bombed Hiroshima. In fact, even the Hiroshima bomb did not get them to surrender. We had to drop another one on Nagasaki. Do you remember Nagasaki? Those, as yourself, who try to claim that the Japanese had surrendered are living in a mythical world that attempts to rewrite history.

As a side note, there are several historians who believe that we let Pearl Habor happen so that we would have justification to enter the war.

If you knew your history, you would know that the United States has done more than any other nation to bring peace, democracy and justice to our world. At times, it has been costly. And this goal has never been acheived by ignoring terrorism.

If you knew your history (aka, not just the stuff they tell you in text books and through the mass media) the US has also overthrown legitimate regimes via the CIA, proping up failing governments that brought those countries into poverty and brought great blood shed. We also have used our economic might to create favorbale economic conditions for the US, not fo the countries we've inerveened in. The US' history hasn't always been so peachy. I do think that on balance we've been a positive force, but to deny the negative force out government has been is ridiculous.

F-bacher

[lenz]

wow, wow. Relax buddy and for a second put some thought into what I'm saying.

I'm not by ANY means defending the attacks. What I am saying is that it is easier to stop terrorist attacks on our people by not giving people reason to hate us than it is to kill them all. Moreover, I am for retaliation due to the attacks but I just don't think war is a wise form of retaliation. I just don't want to be in a position where I have family or friends end up like the unfortunate folks in the world trade center.

Do you really think all the stuff history books and the media will have you believe are true? Do you really think that we crushed Iraq because they were invading Kuwait? What about all the other oppressive governments why haven't we squashed them? Iran is a good example. They have killed nearly 50,000 Bahai's(a religous group) for their believes. That is a holocaust but no one ever hears about that.

My main point here is that the media and books from which you have likely gathered most of your knowledge from are bogus. CNN most renown reported quit her post because she was so frustrated about the media not telling the truth. I'm just hopefull that Bush won't think of this like a game and will actually be very patient with his decisions.

I apologize to those of you that misunderstood my post.

[warnergt]

Originally posted by lenz:
<STRONG>My main point here is that the media and books from which you have likely gathered most of your knowledge from are bogus.</STRONG>

On the contrary, you have the bogus information. Japan was not ready for any real form of surrender before the Hiroshima bomb. The wanted to "surrender" on their terms which merely meant that they wanted us to stop fighting them. That was impossible after what they had done to us.

Oh, and we give these Middle Eastern countries reasons to hate us? We gave more humanitarian aid to Afghanistan this year than any other country. See: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=24495

These countries bite the hand that feeds them. They kill each other (Iran vs. Iraq, Saddam Hussein vs. the Kurds) and they want to kill us. They envy our high standard of living; everybody always hates the big guy (e.g. Microsoft). Instead of bringing their quality of life up, they find it easier to bring our quality of life down.

Our country has been involved with vicious regimes but it was almost always a choice of the lesser of two evils.

[davecom]

What do you mean you don't think we should declare war, lenz? If it wasn't for formalities we wouldn't even need to declare it. We're at war! We just don't know exactly with who yet. Since when is killing civilians inside our own country not an act of war. Who would of thought we'd see the day that Washington and New York would be the equivalent of bombed and some of us wouldn't want to declare war. We're at war. We have no choice. They brought us into it. We didn't start it, but we can't not fight it.

[parallax]

LOL, always nice to get a developer opinion on the state of the nation.

Moving over to the Lounge. Although I kinda like it in here.