First off it is perhaps poor manners and bad form to repost messages from a game board to this forum, so I appologize. (sorry)
However I do this for the greater good because the many MAC fans of the military simluation game Combat Mission Beyond Overlord are somewhat dissappointed by this official response from BTS the makers of Combat Mission:
" | IP: Logged
Madmatt
Administrator
Member # 332
Combat Mission - Beyond Overlord is done. Finished. No more work being done on it. That means no OS X native support. We are also not planning on making CMBB (CM2) native either. We will have native OS X support when we recode the CM engine.
I would just add here that making CM native to OS X is *not* a simple thing. It requires that we fully strip out EVERY BIT of the 3D engine, which currently runs under RAVE (which *cannot* be native under OS X),
and recode it to OpenGL. This will be done eventually with the engine rewrite, but it's no trivial task.
People can thank Apple for not giving developers advance notice that they
planned to switch to OpenGL (back in 1998 or 1999, whenever it was). They kept it secret for so long that we were already too far committed to RAVE to make the switch.
As has been said before (and above) if you wish to play CM with OS X you will need to run in Classic Mode and this may also require removal of the "Classic Rave" Extension from the Extensions Folder.
Please direct people with similar questions about Mac OS X support to this thread in the future if you would.
Thanks!
Madmatt"
From this thread:
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/b...=001486&p=
What is really at stake here is the NEXT great BTS title will be CM2 the Eastern Front, its in in progress right now and will not be available until LATE fall 2001 but it too will NOT be OSX compliant as it is based on the RAVE 3D API...
So in the FALL a GREAT Mac game will come out but OSX does not support RAVE and BTS will not program their new game to work in OpenGL.
Does anyone have any comments or suggestions regarding this unfortunate situation?
Your comments and Suggestions are MOST welcome
Anyone here from APPLE actually understand the root cause and technical issues involved in this problem?
The game is a 3D game programed and written on a MAC for the RAVE API. CM2 is a re-purpose of the game engine in CMBO set to release in in fall 2001, but it will not run in OSX if OSX does not support Rave, by that time new Mac's will be shipping with OSX installed and you will have to boot BACK into classic jsut to play the game!
Thanks
Fletcher Christian
Posts from that Thread from the tech forum at BTS
karsten
Junior Member
Member # 3421
posted 04-21-2001 10:40 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi - I've had CM for the Mac since it came out and I'm still 100% addicted to it, but have not been very happy with it's performance in Classic.
I know that there have been developer versions of OS X for over a year now and was wondering if you have a carbon or cocoa version available or in the works.
I believe that you are currently OpenGL and there was a RAVE shim available in OS X. I would really love to run native in X. If you're looking for alpha testers - please contact me! I'll put it through its paces!
Thanks!
-Karsten
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
kmead
Member
Member # 756
posted 04-21-2001 11:10 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a few threads on this general issue some time ago and sadly received no reply form BTS. I hope you hear from Charles or Steve on this.
As I understand it they do not use Open GL (they suggest the latest ATI drivers as they resolve some existing problems that effect text) at all in the current incarnation of the software. They use RAVE, and the RAVE shim doesn't work satisfactorily for CMBO. I have stayed at 9.04 (at home) to avoid having trouble in this area, at work I will be upgrading my department soon (in the next 6 mos) to OSX to allow the use of new apps as they appear.
Good luck
[ 04-21-2001: Message edited by: kmead ]
--------------------
Karl Mead
And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve
Foolish Inept Attempted Transportation, huh? what kind of car? FIAT
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Panther131
Member
Member # 4087
posted 04-22-2001 12:06 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Fellow Mac user. I have OS X and am currently using it. I also have a machine that is OS 9 dedicated at the moment. However, I would like to try CM with OS X. The cpu I am using is a B&W G3 400@512bc. I have plenty of ram as well. When I try to run CM in classic mode I can't get past the loading graphics splash screen. The playing field seems to be there but, the splash screen is still there. I can hear the CM sounds effects in the game, so I know that the game has loaded. I just get no graphics.
Is there a trick to get OS X to run CM in classic? Please let me know your trick and vast knowledge
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
dsimmons
Junior Member
Member # 5609
posted 04-22-2001 06:22 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned in forums before, you can run under Mac OSX 10.0 under classic if you disable the "Classic RAVE" extension in your classic folder. HOWEVER, it will only run in Software Emulation mode, bypassing your 3-D accelerator.
Still better to run it in 9.X
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Madmatt
Administrator
Member # 332
posted 04-24-2001 12:01 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combat Mission - Beyond Overlord is done. Finished. No more work being done on it. That means no OS X native support. We are also not planning on making CMBB (CM2) native either. We will have native OS X support when we recode the CM engine.
I would just add here that making CM native to OS X is *not* a simple thing. It requires that we fully strip out EVERY BIT of the 3D engine, which currently runs under RAVE (which *cannot* be native under OS X),
and recode it to OpenGL. This will be done eventually with the engine rewrite, but it's no trivial task.
People can thank Apple for not giving developers advance notice that they
planned to switch to OpenGL (back in 1998 or 1999, whenever it was). They kept it secret for so long that we were already too far committed to RAVE to make the switch.
As has been said before (and above) if you wish to play CM with OS X you will need to run in Classic Mode and this may also require removal of the "Classic Rave" Extension from the Extensions Folder.
Please direct people with similar questions about Mac OS X support to this thread in the future if you would.
Thanks!
Madmatt
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
kmead
Member
Member # 756
posted 04-24-2001 01:20 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the heads up on this subject finally. We do appreciate BTS officially clarifying this issue for us.
I am saddened that we will be waiting 2-3 years given the timetable for the future updates to CM engine 1. It does appear that in time I and others will be abandoning CM due to its incompatibility. I agree that Apple failed to give enough notice to developers to make the switch from the RAVE API to Open GL. I know other developers have had enough time, but in all likelyhood their Mac sales are much larger than BTS's as are their budgets/staffing and so on.
Sadly, the news will likely cause the future of CMBO and its immediate children CMBB and so on to have little market penetration relative new Mac sales which will ship with OSX as standard. Most Mac users are unlikely to disable RAVE and suffer the massive performance hit.
I will continue to have a Mac for the forseeable future with 9.04 to 9.1 for my childrens educational legacy software. It will be my lesser horesepower and the one I use least. I will soon be retiring my Win machine and do not intend to acquire another so I guess by my own choice I will forrego the immediate future of CM.
Thanks for the information, and if you have more to add, I would appreciate your comments.
--------------------
Karl Mead
And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve
Foolish Inept Attempted Transportation, huh? what kind of car? FIAT
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Gyrene
Member
Member # 5238
posted 04-24-2001 06:26 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To anyone now running OSX I have this question: When you say running on Classic mode do you mean running it with OSX in the background or with a fresh reboot into 9.1?
If I understand correctly you have the option of picking the OS you'd like to boot up under, so if you choose 9.1 it would be as if OSX was never in your system, as opposed to the pretty slow way that classic apps run under OSX.
Any comments on this?
Gyrene
--------------------
Mein Luftkissenfahrzeug ist voller Aale.
"You are all Pikachus and I'm your Master." ~ PawBroon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Panther131
Member
Member # 4087
posted 04-24-2001 09:24 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes its true. If you have X running you can always boot into 9x so CM will be playable. Unfortunate that CM is not being carbonized becouse X really is an excellent OS. Guess I'll have to wait for the re-writeup of CMII. Thing is we are looking at CMII for a 2005 release?
(just an estimation I really have no idea)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Colin
Member
Member # 1001
posted 04-25-2001 01:38 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Matt!
It seems that BTS is losing its commitment to the Mac. If CMBB will require Classic and the Classic RAVE extension must be disabled then that means no hardware acceleration for OS X. In the summer when Apple begins shipping OSX with it's new Mac's more people will begin upgrading to OSX. If CMBB has no 3D acceleration for Mac it's sales will suffer.
I can understand that CMBO isn't being worked on any longer. There isn't much point in releasing a game that is only going to run if you have an operating system that's out of date by a year and a half. You can't blame Apple for replacing an outdated API.
I'm not an expert on this subject so please correct me if I'm wrong(and I hope I am).
Sorry if I'm seeming rude but I'm an school and that could frustrate anybody!
--------------------
And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.
-Steve
My website!
A major source of Wild Bill scenarios!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Panther131
Member
Member # 4087
posted 04-25-2001 02:08 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is or so matt says is that Apple did not communicate its ideas that rave api was being dropped in OS X. That would be the Apple we all know and love. They are not the best company out there when it comes to dealing with developers. But as for the change in OS, X is a much welcome change and much needed.
As for CM not being carbonized in any way has potential to be a problem. CM3 will probably come out towards the end of 2002 (a rough guestimation) with CM4 coming out towards 2004. Pretending that is acurate, all macs will be loaded with OS X preinstalled since the this summer. The possible problem may be that by the time CM 3 and 4 rolls around most users will be using X.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Schrullenhaft
Member
Member # 909
posted 04-25-2001 04:07 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CM would work fine if Apple updated their RAVE extension to fully support the API. I'm curious how other RAVE-based games will perform/work under OS X's Compatibility Mode.
Apple's dropping of RAVE and transition to OpenGL is understandable and welcomed from the viewpoint of increased functionality and a more open/common standard. However any game companies that have developed under the RAVE API are now scrambling to update their games or just dropping the product. I wonder how many former RAVE-based games will make the transition to OpenGL. I think the first 3D games you'll see working in OS X are those that have already been coded in OpenGL under OS 9.x. All those game companies that claim they are supporting OS X/OpenGL probably aren't creating patches to their current games, but developing new games for sale that support the new OS & API.
By the time that Apple's prognostication concerning the transitioning to OpenGL and the end of development/support for RAVE under OS X had firmed up into a reliable roadmap for developers it was a little late for BTS to switch APIs. CM had been in development for a couple of years by this point with the RAVE API, switching APIs at that point would have delayed CMBO even further and a lot of work would have been lost.
Undoubtedly BTS would like to convert their Mac-based API to OpenGL (and satisfy all of those Mac users out there that want to use OS X) yesterday, but it obviously isn't that simple. Converting all the RAVE routines to OpenGL (and coding around the differences between the APIs) will be very time consuming and trying to do this to CMBB's release would add at least another year to its development. That long of a wait for a new product would probably be a harder financial pill for BTS to swallow than to ship out CMBB coded in RAVE and take the loss in sales for those Mac owners who only have OS X.
CMII is going to be the engine rewrite of CM. OpenGL will most likely be the API (on the Mac at least) it will be coded in. At the same time that the API is being recoded, new features will be added to the engine to make CM more detailed in many respects. I'm not sure how long it will take to develop CMII, it could be a little over year after CMBB's release or up to 3 years (which is probably longer than BTS is planning on). There is no definite schedule of release titles after CMBB. CM3 & 4 may come out before CMII is completed or they may come out sporting the new CMII engine. Everything is still in a bit of flux regarding this.
[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Toad
Member
Member # 1579
posted 04-30-2001 11:37 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bought a copy of OS X for my Mac and look forward to future games that take advantage of what it has to offer.
BTS can write me down as a current CM customer who would be willing to pay an upgrade fee for CM:BO enhanced for OS X. Let's say half the price of the original CM to upgrade to an OS X version.
I feel I have received far more enjoyment from CM than I paid for. I would easily pay an upgrade fee for the same game enhanced for OS X.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:
CMII is going to be the engine rewrite of CM. OpenGL will most likely be the API (on the Mac at least) it will be coded in. At the same time that the API is being recoded, new features will be added to the engine to make CM more detailed in many respects. I'm not sure how long it will take to develop CMII, it could be a little over year after CMBB's release or up to 3 years (which is probably longer than BTS is planning on). There is no definite schedule of release titles after CMBB. CM3 & 4 may come out before CMII is completed or they may come out sporting the new CMII engine. Everything is still in a bit of flux regarding this.
[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
--
Toad
Ontario, Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
karsten
Junior Member
Member # 3421
posted 04-30-2001 09:17 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't agree more. I got WAY more out of the game than I paid for it.
Even with the problems of running it in OS X, I still can't stop playing.
If you guys are listening - I'd be more than happy to pay for an OS X native version of CM2.
I think you'll find that you could charge more per game and have a whole new market available beyond the entrenched Mac users. There are plenty of Unix people moving into OS X - and they love games like this!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Gen-x87
Member
Member # 2805
posted 05-01-2001 02:35 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is why in the world would BTS go back and rewrite the comple mac version for a few sales? When they are working on finishing up CM2. Correct me if I am wrong but isnt CM2 the eastern front? I believe that version is using the CMBO game engine. It just costs more to rewrite the code after it is already written. Something along the lines of 16x more than if you do it at the begining of the software dev cycle.
If you guys love the game that bad why do you not keep your current systems that are running Mac OS 9 for CM?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!? Eventually i will have to be doing this with some older Dos games.
Just a few thoughts............
Gen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Toad
Member
Member # 1579
posted 05-01-2001 02:39 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed, migrating the current CM:BO to OpenGL and Carbon / Cocoa for OS X would take effort. My position is that I am willing to pay BTS for that effort.
You're correct that we can keep OS 9 on our hard disks and boot to it whenever we want another game of CM. However, I'm expecting CM to remain a favourite game of mine for a long time. Long after I've lost interest in the other games that only run in 9 and deleted them. I like OS X and look forward to it improving and it becoming the OS where I spend most of my time. I would like an OS X version of CM to have on my hard disk after I've deleted other 9-only games.
I'll let BTS decide whether the effort to migrate the current CM to OS X is worth it. To help their decision, they can add a "will pay for upgrade" checkmark next to my name on their Mac customer list.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gen-x87:
The problem is why in the world would BTS go back and rewrite the comple mac version for a few sales? When they are working on finishing up CM2. Correct me if I am wrong but isnt CM2 the eastern front? I believe that version is using the CMBO game engine. It just costs more to rewrite the code after it is already written. Something along the lines of 16x more than if you do it at the begining of the software dev cycle.
If you guys love the game that bad why do you not keep your current systems that are running Mac OS 9 for CM?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!? Eventually i will have to be doing this with some older Dos games.
Just a few thoughts............
Gen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
--
Toad
Ontario, Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
kmead
Member
Member # 756
posted 05-01-2001 09:43 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add a "I will pay for an upgrade to CMBO to run under Mac OSX and OpenGL" for me as well, for all the reasons Toad has enummerated. CMBB would be well served to be released that way (OSX/OpenGL compliant).
--------------------
Karl Mead
And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve
Foolish Inept Attempted Transportation, huh? what kind of car? FIAT
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
aikidorat
Member
Member # 657
posted 05-02-2001 02:59 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
sign me up as well - as others have said, the value of the game far outweighs the cost.
I'd be willing to pay for CM2 as OS9 only, then pay an upgrade cost for an OSX version next year - that way BTS could release CM2 on schedule then work on converting the engine.
as one who is spending more and more time in OSX, I can say that I really dont like going back to OS9 (and I hate this NT box at work), and only do so to support the CM games I have going on.
Anymore when the PBEM files arrive, it's more a feeling of Rats! time to reboot to OS 9 to do my turns, then I can zoom back into OS X and explore, work, etc.
until the next file arrives. then the cycle continues.
heck, I'd even help with the conversion process...
dave
--------------------
History is made at night
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
karsten
Junior Member
Member # 3421
posted 05-02-2001 08:28 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone heard any news about Apple improving the RAVE --> OpenGL for OS X?
Maybe they could get away with just carbonizing if the RAVE/OpenGL stuff is solid...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Ben Galanti
Member
Member # 38
posted 05-03-2001 03:22 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Madmatt's statement on this is pretty firm. CM2 (not the rewrite) is coming out so soon because there are only minor modifications to the engine. Rewriting the engine would add considerable time. This is time that they are not getting any income from sales. Since this only affects the Mac customers, most likely a much smaller portion of sales, it does make the most business sense.
I know CM was programmed primarly on a Mac, and I'm sure Charles would love to get it up and running natively on OS X, but there are business issues here. Since they are already planning on rewritting the engine for CM II, that seems to be the better time to make the change.
So, for those who want to run CM under OS X, the better bet (though probably not a good one) is that Apple improves their RAVE->OpenGL shim for classic. Hopefully Charles/BTS can get together with Apple to point out specific issues with the shim which are causing CM to have problems. Of course, CM performance will never be as good under OS X as under os 9 or earlier, but since CM doesn't depend on high framerates like other 3D games, it should be playable, as long it displays right.
Now, for my disclaimer, I'm on a Beige G3, so haven't upgraded to OS X yet. Out of curiosity, what are the specific problems? Is it just graphical glitches or is it actual crashing/hanging issues?
Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Schrullenhaft
Member
Member # 909
posted 05-03-2001 04:30 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben - I haven't seen CMBO running under OS X Classic mode myself either, but I'm under the impression that the game is crashing/hanging attempting to display the 3D battlefield (at the splash screen I assume).
I'm guessing that a number of RAVE calls probably violate OS X's kernel/graphic model or something of that nature (accessing hardware) and so the Classic RAVE extension/shim isn't written to support much in regards to hardware 3D acceleration.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
Gwyndel
Junior Member
Member # 5765
posted 05-03-2001 05:15 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure that your problem is connected with the OS you are using. I am still using 8.6 and I have the same. Following a crash, I have re-installed (and updated) a lot of software, so I don't know where the problem comes from, but I suspect it came from an extension from my updating of my programs (CM did function fairly well before).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
karsten
Junior Member
Member # 3421
posted 05-03-2001 05:57 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to boot into 9.1, you can't run it from OS X / Classic.
You'll need to remove the Classic Compatibility extension for RAVE.
It should run now, but it is VERY, VERY SLOW.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
pford
Member
Member # 801
posted 05-04-2001 09:10 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I understand it, for the forseable future, one can boot into Mac OS 9 instead of X by holding down the ALT key while booting. A pain, but not too horrible.
If and when the CM engine is upgraded for Mac OS X, it may be backwards compatible with the earlier scenarios. That is what I would like to see.
I have been on this issue way back. I think instead of bugging BTS, we should work on Apple and ATI (or somebody) to create a RAVE -> OpenGL interpreter, sort of like VPC and Virtual GameStation, or a carbon RAVE. It may be a pipe dream, especially since I have no idea how big the task is. Are there open documentation on the RAVE implementation and calls to the graphic boards. Maybe there is enough interest in an open-source project. (BTS CMBO code is such that they believe that it is not possible to open-source the graphic part only even if they wanted to.)
Hey - where did the spell checker go? It is inhumane to subject people to my spelling and typing, not to mention my grammar errors.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
karsten
Junior Member
Member # 3421
posted 05-04-2001 10:31 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've already written Apple regarding this - unfortunately, I have no idea exactly what is wrong with the Rave --> OpenGL shim that is making it so difficult for them to work with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| IP: Logged
pford
Member
Member # 801
posted 05-07-2001 07:48 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by karsten:
I've already written Apple regarding this - unfortunately, I have no idea exactly what is wrong with the Rave --> OpenGL shim that is making it so difficult for them to work with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you like to clue us in who to bug at Apple Inc. (Other than Steve. He gets testy.)
[This message has been edited by fletcher (edited 05-15-2001).]
Top
