Okay, I want to run the following services for my business and I have very little "unix" knowledge. DNS, FTP, HTTP(SSL),POP3/SMTP/IMAP4 and some kind of dynamic page database solution. Anyway, I've been running all these services on the MacOS side for about a year, but am still not happy with stability of the MacOS (8.5.1)...though it's probably third party apps that cause the problems (restart on average every three days..blech!). Anyway, I now have to decide between LinuxPPC and MOSXS to switch to. I've used LinuxPPC for over a year, but just as a hobby every few weeks. I recently got to play with a Feb 12th build of MOSXS that a friend sent me (I'm assuming Hotline here, but I don't ask him where he gets this stuff and he doesn't offer). Anyway, for the last two days I've been running MOSXS on one of my iMacs (via unsupported install) and I *love* it!! But now I want to get wu-ftp, bind, sendmail etc running but am not sure how to proceed. Will the stuff at linuxppc.org compile for MOSXS or do I get more BSD friendlt stuff?? Forgive the ignorance here, but with LinuxPPC I learned just enough to put on AfterStep and Netscape. If I can get all of those services figured on MOSXS then I'm definitely going to go with it when it's out (if ever..shessh). TIA and sorry for the length.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but...

Has anyone noticed that MOSXS can be
pronounce "Mo' Success"?
Coincidence?
Can't be.

The rpm packages for LinuxPPC will not work with Mac OS X Server. They are precompiled binaries that will (for the most part) only work on LinuxPPC systems. You can obtain the source code for nearly all of these packages from various ftp sites. ftp://ftp.cdrom.com springs to mind. If you are new to unxi, it would be in your best interest to find binary packages since compiling on OS X Server may be nasty...I don't know yet. I suggest checking www.stepwise.com or www.versiontracker.com and looking for OS X Server packages to find what you are looking for. Apple has probably packaged a large number of the servers that you need in the BSD install. Sendmail for smtp, wu-ftp for ftp, etc...

[AArthur]

Mac OS X and LinuxPPC/MkLinux are aimed a totally different markets.

Mac OS X is best for people that have no knowledge of *nix any want one or two click configuration, and don't want to learn any *nix or deal with anything that looks even remotely like a command line.

Mac OS X is also great for people that are needing a Macintosh-only network or a Mac-centric network. Mac OS X doesn't really make sense for a network of all Microsoft Windows 98 machines or of *nix boxes.

LinuxPPC on the other hand, is fairly easy to use, but it still has a invisible command line behind all stuff. The command line is very powerful, and the graphic's system / Windowing System (X11) provides a super flexable desktop enviroment. LinuxPPC boots into a nice GUI, (especially R5 and latter), from a simple installer, but the desktop choices fell radically different from what a Mac-user would expect (most Mac-users would bash and make fun of what they believe as a inferior interface!)

Probally to use LinuxPPC effecently, from experience, you need about as much knowledge of DOS to run NT well, just like you need a knowledge of *nix commands to run LinuxPPC offically.

Tinkers, powerusers (like me and probaly you) and people who want to have custom solutions for server probally want LinuxPPC to run their servers, due to the great preformance and the custom solutions that open-source software offers you. Finally, LinuxPPC runs on all PCI-PowerPC (most 603, 604, 750 machines, Apple or other) and MkLinux runs on most PowerMacs. Mac OS X requires a G3!

Mac-centric users and newbies and other not willing to learn about other platforms, will like Mac OS X, do to it's Mac interface, it's simplicity (compared to Linux, but I still wish the Mac was as simple as 1984).

LinuxPPC and Mac OS X do not compete, they are for totally different markets.

I personaly hope for the success of Mac OS X, for the nice Mac GUI, and LinuxPPC for the preformance and customizablity.

Thanks,

AArthur

[This message has been edited by AArthur (edited 03-15-99).]

I'm not sure if AArthur meant to imply this or not, but MOSXS certainly *does* have a command line, and Unix knowledge will certainly be a big plus.

[swilson69]

I was under the impression that MacOS X Server was equal in performance to LinuxPPC. Is this not true?

The message by AArthur suggests that for the top performance, LinuxPPC is superior and would it for more advanced users. I am apprehensive though if the gains are marginal or non-existent.

[gunnar]

I think the meaning of the message is that LinuxPPC allows for a greater flexibility in specific custom solutions. Because it is open source and you have access to the very basics of the system, given the right knowledge you can make it do anything. However, Mac OS X Server provides a very powerful (almost 20% greater sustained web hits according to apple.com) system to run an extremely wide variety of applications and tasks. The main difference it seems is your knowledge level. MOSXS will provide easier set up and a consistent base for third parties to write applications. It will also be powerful and for the majority of users those two things will be plenty. LinuxPPC will still lead in ultra-high performance arenas and situations where ultra-customization is needed.

parker> I would get Macos X server, I dont think LinuxPPC is at or near the quality of its x86 sister version.

You will get 3rd party support for apps with macosx. You will most likely be able to get stuff to compile on either system with few problems and you will get better documentation.

You sound like you like to tinker with linux part time but you i dont you would be too interested in staying up all night to debug your system, but you want the speed of unix

i think your looking at communigate, apache and bind. Communigate isnt free but it does your mail stuff and it _has_ to be easier to configure than apache. (and it doesnt sound like you need the super extended features that sendmail has that communigate might not.

Bind is free, and apache is free.

____

AArthur> why wouldnt you put macosx server in a unix/windows environment? Its basically a modified BSD unix and samba has been ported to it, i beleive, i dont see why it wouldnt fit right in unless of course you had no clue what you were doing. but i have seen a myriad of Wintel "gurus" who havent a clue.. so i see your point.

[whitewlf]

You all seem to forget some of the biggest reasons MacOSX server is so powerful- Full MacOS compatability, High power quicktime content serving and most of all, WebObjects 4- the most powerful backend application server available. LinuxPPC is still an excellent OS, and will likely be a competitor to OSXS, they are after a portion of the same market. We'll only have to wait and see.

something else in favor of MacOSXServer (and probably Darwin) - NeXT's Engineer. These guys are brilliant. I remember playing with NeXTStep on a NeXTStation Color many years ago (33 Mhz 68040) and it was smooth, slick, speedy, all on machines that we probably think sluggish today. The OpenStep (YellowBox) API's are really well engineered, and there's nothing on the market quite as good as EOF (Enterprise Objects Framework). NeXTStep/OpenStep has been running for a number of years in large enterprises (like the US Postal Service) doing fairly critical applications. Linux has a lot of good things going for it, but it doesn't have Avie Tevenian (or however you spell his name). There are some projects like GNUStep which are based on OpenStep, but who knows how complete they are or ever will be. MacOS X Server should hopefully carry on this tradition (although I think Apple will downplay OpenStep in favor of the more toolbox-like Carbon API's). Darwin, on the other hand, should at least bring _some_ of the tight engineering modifications that the old NeXT team (now current Apple team) have made to things like BSD and Mach into the public arena.

[oeyvind]

Some observations: MOSX server is very very powerful and fast in many ways... I just tried these... ftp'ng some very large files from another machine (SUN). and running QT streaming from the same server... it's very impressive... after all it's from a 7300/180 with built-in ethernet... Graphics-wise, I think the DPS or the cloe window server need to work on... I felt after playig with my NeXTstation TurboColor yesterday... my 33Mhz 040 is faster in many sense...

Per the comments on the not-so-celerous DPS graphic system, it's a server, and Apple didn't pour the time into bringing Enhanced QuickDraw to MacOS X Server 1.0. To do so would have increased time-to-market, overburdened the EQD team with an unreasonable timeframe, and encouraged people who didn't need a dedicated file server to buy MacOS X Server. (Beyond unreasonable support issues, I don't understand the problem here. regardless, it's the official position.)

Not to mention, NeXT had the advantage of fine-tuning DPS on 68k hardware. Apple had no such needs, since DPS will replaced sooner-than-later with EQD.

Functionality is always important, but you're not going to get display speed like you want until MacOS X.

[This message has been edited by Mark J Hershenson (edited 03-28-99).]

We don't have any LinuxPPC v. Mac OS X benchmarks yet, so we don't know how the performance of the two systems compares on any task.

------------------
=- Jason Haas, LinuxPPC Inc.
=- jhaas@linuxppc.com

[reiggin]

AArthur mentions LinuxPPC running on 750's... is this fully true? I've got a Blue and White G3 and from what I understand, I am not able to run Linux. What are my options other than sinking $250 into MOSXS (I'm a student)?

reiggin> firstly, as a student, you can buy it for only $99 if you register with Apple Developers Conference as a student (free, I think). Secondly, unless you want to address the marketplace as a Linux Guru, there is not a lot of work out there for Linux tinkerers who aren't already solid NT, Novell or Unix net admins/engineers.

I just attended an Apple sponsored seminar re: MOSXS and I can categorically state that MOSXS is much better than Linux for just about everything except for maybe an ultra-customized setup. As well, since Darwin is also open source, an individual has already written a program to convert Linux apps to MOSXS. IINM, LinuxPPC does work on the B&W G3s or will, shortly. What doesn't get said alot is that Linux is really a mixed bag. For gurus, it is great. However, I'm not interested in tinkering with ANY OS. For what I do, (Internet and Networking Consulting) I just need a solution that works and Linux has both a fairly steep learning curve for non-unix folks and can be inordinately difficult to set up, especially on PC hardware. For every strength, there is a weakness. That is why IBM has not ported Notes to Linux. MOSXS, otoh, is like a Triptronic transmission on a Porsche. With the Mac GUI, you can drive it like an automatic concentrating on where you are going, not what gear got you there. Or, you can "manually" guide the tranny for those "trickier" stretches of road where your choices are really the difference. Linux can take you down the second road, but it can't yet take you down the first.

Apple has hit a home-run with this version 1.0. So much so that I am refocusing my business on MOSXS solutions. Frankly, this is the first alternative that I can sell to a small business where I can say honestly that they will be able to administer it themselves: I would NEVER put NT into an unsupported environment, EVER; robustness means choices and too many choices make Netware a difficult sell in an unsupported environment; Linux or any flavor of Unix for that matter is near impossible to sell to regular folks who run a business (the perceived difficulty of Unix usually kills that option before it could really be considered); and AppleShare has only recently offered some necessary services as well as it not being a very good choice for an all PC environment. MOSXS, otoh, is just as easy, if not easier, than OS 8.5 and is a hundred times more stable. The blue box, now called Classic, looks exactly like it does now including loading extensions and control panels. It is **much** easier to setup than NT or Netware and would work perfectly in an all PC environment with the Samba client loaded.

Linux only became interesting because it is free and it blows the doors off of NT at everything it tries to do. However, MOSXS blows the doors off of NT while being orders of magnitude easier to use. Once Apple addresses the need for 1) a rack mounted server line, 2) making MOSXS scalable and 3) certification for MOSXS admins and engineers, they will have really hit the nail on the head.

Be well everybody and have a blessed week.

------------------
William Keyser
President
Sequoia Technologies

Maybe I'm the only one to notice this, but how much does OSX cost? $500? What's the min. system (according to apple)? A G3?

Regarding the cost, not everyone is a student, and $99 dollars still isn't free.

How about Linux? Cost: Free. Min. system, PCI Mac with 700 MB HD.

The steep learning curve is offset by a flat price curve.

-Hopper

Does anyone know of any 3 button mice that work with MOSX? I have a really cool UniMouse but before I migrate to OSX I want to make sure that the mouse will work in 3 button mode.

You must really like your mouse for it to decide what OS you choose!

[This message has been edited by Jamal Anderson (edited 06-08-99).]

The steep learning curve is offset by a flat price curve.

That's more a matter of opinion than a fact.

- Scott