[LeeG]

I have heard all the excuses before:

1) 'That site isn't very good anyway', or 'I never go there'

2) Web designers are to blame for poorly coding

3) Its a beta! (not so anymore, though debateable)


The REALITY is, I am starting to make these excuses too, but its getting frustrating. I am a die hard mac user, and I would never post something ridiculous like "If Apple doesn't fix this I am buying a windows laptop next week!!" BUT, I still go back to IE to get at my bank, Yahoo's site doesn't work - can't upload pictures, can't add filters to the mail page - all things that work fine when I switch to IE. Issues like LL Bean, ESPN, etc etc, are just annoying - one thing that macs were pretty good with was the web - its platform independent - well, it WAS.

What happens when there is NO IE? I know, I know - netscape, camino, etc - ok I could give em a try, I happen to like camino a lot.

But the problem we are facing is that web 'standards' mean NOTHING. Whatever IE implements IS the standard. like it or not. Coders don't HAVE to code better - it would be nice if they did, but they (along with almost everyone else) really only care about compatibility with the 95% of drones that make up the wintel world.

I would rather Apple code IE's mistakes into safari than have incompatible web sites, or RELEASE safari for windows - While the mac web browser market is interesting, the windows world seems stagnant (where have I heard that before?), if windows users liked safari (it MUST be free), and more used it, then more web coders might be apt to properly code.

I don't know, sorry for the rant, but I am getting frustrated, and worried. Why does M$ have to ruin everything? They are like a virus, and macs are the cure (sorry, gratuitous matrix reference).

Anyway, thoughts?

Lee

[cpac]

um, yeah it sucks when sites dont use standards.

the more you bitch to them though, the more likely they are to fix it.

[ambush]

Both sites work well in Camino.

[BoulderDash]

I also absolutely hate (hate! ) the fact that one cannot tab to a DropDown menu and use the keyboard to select elements; such as States, Countries, etc.

Currently one has to go back to the mouse and use the pointer to select items within said DropDown menu - just plain stupid and time consuming when there are vast amounts of data to enter (such as adding products to a web catalog, etc.).

IE allows for this sort of User Experience; so for data entry, it's a much better tool.

BD

[cpac]

Originally posted by BoulderDash:
I also absolutely hate (hate! ) the fact that one cannot tab to a DropDown menu and use the keyboard to select elements; such as States, Countries, etc.

One can. One needs only to turn on full keyboard access in one's accessibility control panel.

[JLL]

Originally posted by LeeG:
I would rather Apple code IE's mistakes into safari than have incompatible web sites

That wouldn't help that much since you will run into problems with VBScript, JScript, ActiveX and MSJVM.

[[APi]TheMan]

The thought of Microsoft "owning the web" is certainly a scary one, but I think that I'll be ok. Not every web developer is on the cutting edge of web design and designing super PC code-intensive websites. The number of sites that just DON'T work, as in not displaying because they're so b0rk3d on the Mac, is not that large. Well not for me at least. I don't give a huff for largely complex and PC-centric websites.

If anything more sites are beginning to use Flash elements, and as long as we have support from leading developers like Macromedia then we'll be A-Ok.

[OpenStep]

eBay's seller site still doesn't work with Safari, it just quits when it goes to upload the pics or update the page. This hasn't been fixed yet either

[Nonsuch]

Just in case anyone's missed it, you can still report site bugs in the 1.0 version of Safari; the option is in the application menu. I've reported about half a dozen since the final release came out.

[BoulderDash]

Originally posted by cpac:
One can. One needs only to turn on full keyboard access in one's accessibility control panel.

That is a great tip, but one that's unnecessary for IE to pull off "tabable-DropDowns". Why must Safari rely on this system-wide Universal Access setting. Again, thanks for the tip, but being that this will change how all other applications may/may not behave... I wish Safari would just follow the excellent usability IE has come with for years now. Instead of relying on system-wide settings.

BD

[sushiism]

as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by sushiism:
as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

[JLL]

Originally posted by BoulderDash:
That is a great tip, but one that's unnecessary for IE to pull off "tabable-DropDowns". Why must Safari rely on this system-wide Universal Access setting. Again, thanks for the tip, but being that this will change how all other applications may/may not behave... I wish Safari would just follow the excellent usability IE has come with for years now. Instead of relying on system-wide settings.

Relying on system wide settings means that anyone can choose whether they like a certain function or not without enabling/disabling it in every app.

[clarkgoble]

Why do you say the sites are increasing? I've found the opposite. Even the sites I used to have problems with all work. The only sites I've had remaining problem with are a few Flash gaming sites.

[Developer]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Why do you say the sites are increasing? I've found the opposite. Even the sites I used to have problems with all work. The only sites I've had remaining problem with are a few Flash gaming sites.

Make sure to turn off Flash file in System Preferences->QuickTime->Plug-In->MIME settings.

[socalmac]

Originally posted by sushiism:
as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

How does this solve the posters question exactly?

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by OpenStep:
eBay's seller site still doesn't work with Safari, it just quits when it goes to upload the pics or update the page. This hasn't been fixed yet either

Humm! I have never had a problem posting eBay auctions in Safari? I do use my ISP webspace for my pic's though, I like how it lets me be more flexible with my ad's layout.

[clarkgoble]

I'd had flash file off already. It's not a big thing. But some of the flash games at CartoonNetwork.com don't work properly under Safari.

I've also had trouble with a lot of the games at Shockwave.com as well. Of course to be fair a lot of the games there require plug-ins which only work on the Windows version of IE.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by sushiism:
as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

I refer you to number 2 in my original post.

Unfortunately, you are right, but that doesn't solve the problem.

At least for now, I can revert to IE when I NEED to, what about a year from now when IE is in longhorn, and i don't have the option?

Don't fool yourself, expect to see longhorn before 2005 - have you seen the R&D M$ is throwing at it?????

Lee

[sushiism]

doesnt solve the problem at all, im just ranting about how some companies hire sub standard web designers who clearly are not doing their job i mean its really not hard to make something work with moz and safari is pretty sensible too from what ive seen.

Actually there seems to be a move towards standard coding

[BoulderDash]

Originally posted by JLL:
Relying on system wide settings means that anyone can choose whether they like a certain function or not without enabling/disabling it in every app.

True enough, but since when does it become intuitive to theoretically go into the Keyboard Pref. Pane -> Full Keyboard Access -> Turn on Full Keyboard access -> Highlight "Any control"? And, do I want this for *every* single application I am running? Sure; this theoretically does the trick for me in Safari, where it could have been a preference (and preferably I think) - but I'll have to see how this system-wide modification affects each application from now on. And I say "theoretically" because even after all of this, I still could not tab to DropDowns.

In my opinion, it would have been better served as a Safari preference. And if Safari is to have any place as a tool for people who perform data entry on the web - THIS IS A MUST. It's immature to not address it.

BD

[LeeG]

Let me add www.fandango.com to the growing list (yes I submitted it to apple), cannot log in to my account to buy tickets.

At least the old IE still works - but for how much longer folks.....this needs to be Apple priority #1.

I have always said, the day I cannot do something on my mac that I need to do will be the day I HAVE to switch platforms - never expecting that day to come. Worsening internet compatibility is that thing.......

Lee
(Still buying a 12" soon...)

[C.J. Moof]

Safari is in a constant state of flux for compatability with administering a Cobalt Qube server through it's web interface. The first release couldn't log into it at all. The second had no issues. The most recent is a step backwards- I can't use Safari to indicate what groups a person is in- they just don't go over.

It's probably Javascript problems, but it's an annoyance that makes me use IE5 to do that one task. Which is annoying in itself, since it hates my self-signed certificate, and whenever I connect to the Qube over SSL it tells me it can't verify the validity of the certificate- 5 stinkin times.

It also won't let me log into my installation of phpbb for a little forum I run. I enter the un/pw pair on the authentication page, click OK, and get the same authentication page back.

[kcmac]

There are a gazillion websites out there. I find very FEW that don't work properly. Alot of times the only real trouble is how they are displayed.

Screw those sites. I'll just go on to the other gazillion.

The only thing I wish Apple would do is give us the option to trick the site like Safari Enhancer does.

I am a landscape architect. If I come up with bad designs, I lose business.

If web designers come up with poor sites, they lose my business. (Or at least their client loses my business.)

Safari is much more enjoyable to use all day in my opinion. IE just plain blows.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Why do you say the sites are increasing? I've found the opposite. Even the sites I used to have problems with all work. The only sites I've had remaining problem with are a few Flash gaming sites.

I must agree. There are very few sites that don't work for me in Safari, and the number has gone way down since it first came out. It is making really good progress.

[cowerd]

At least for now, I can revert to IE when I NEED to, what about a year from now when IE is in longhorn, and i don't have the option?

Does the release of Longhorn erase IE for OS X from your harddrive? Or were you planning to switch by then.

Hyperbole is fine, but at least tread the fine line of realism.

I would rather Apple code IE's mistakes into safari than have incompatible web sites

IE rendering errors are coded into the web framework. IIRC the lack of a valid doctype declaration triggers dumb IE mode.

BTW Uncle Bill still says Longhorn in 2005 (a couple of days ago in fact). Better rethink that prediction.

[TheIceMan]

LeeG:
I can see your frustration and relate to what you're going through. I'm not trying to start a flame war of Safari vs. IE vs. Camino, etc. or Mac vs. Windows. For me, I "switched over" from the Wintel side last Oct. 2002. I have been proud of the fact that my beloved Mac computer can do most things the same or better than the Windows side. However, as reality hits and the stronghold of Microsoft not letting go, I am sadden to say that my Mac doesn't do some things as well.

Now please don't get me wrong, I STILL love my Mac. But, we did buy hardware and software from an OS that touts its ingenuity, its forward-thinking, its compatibility, and its higher quality.

I know that this is just frustration setting in and that things will get better, but for now it feels like I'm in limbo awaiting for solutions. I have heard that Safari v.1.1 (out under Panther) is suppose to correct much of this. Here's to hoping. Ok, I feel better now.

[JLL]

Originally posted by kcmac:
The only thing I wish Apple would do is give us the option to trick the site like Safari Enhancer does.

Identifying Safari as IE doesn't make it render differently - it just lets you bypass a stupid browser check, and if the sites renders fine in Safari when it's identifying ad IE contact the webmaster and tell him.

i HATE browser checks since most of them are only there because the web 'designers' haven't checked it in anything but IE.

"Let's only allow Fords on this road - we don't want to test it with every car out there"

[Millennium]

The real problem with Web design today is that we have tried to combine the responsibilities of Web designers and Web developers.

Being able to create a good Web site takes two very different talents: an eye for good design, and a talent for good code. While some designers manage to blend these abilities (take http://www.zeldman.com for a good example), the plain and simple fact is that very few people manage this feat. I can't do it either; I'm very good with code, but I couldn't design my way out of a wet paper bag. And that's fine; let the designers design, and let the coders code, and all would be well.

The problem is with the so-called "forgiving" Web browsers, the ones that accept code which does not validate to a published standard. This is a memevirus that started with Netscape and spread to IE. Even that wouldn't be too much of a problem, except that it spread from there to the WYSIWYG editors, most of which either cannot produce valid code at all or require significant tweaking to do so.

If we had only accepted that HTML is a type of code, and code requires validation, we would not be in the mess that we are in today. The standards would be clear and well-defined, and compatibility problems would be far less of an issue, if they were an issue at all.

If your Web developer cannot make a site work in Mozilla, or even Safari, then he is in the wrong line of work. That's a lack off talent which would be unforgivable in any other field. It doesn't take a lot of work, and it's not hard, and don't ever let any Web "designer" tell you otherwise.

[Big Mac]

There are very few sites that give me problems in Safari. If I can't access my bank, I move over to IE. And that is a problem - granted - one that Apple should concentrate on fixing. Until then we'll have to continue switching browsers every so often. (Unfortunately, without a global bookmarks menu, my bookmarks get spread between the different browsers. But that's a different gripe.) Many of you are blowing this way out of proportion, making it sound as if it's the end of the world. Give Apple some more time to increase compliance with some of the crappy code out there, and recognize that it won't ever be completely compatible. In exchange for the loss of a small percentage of sites, we gain immunity from the viruses, trojan horses and Windows exploits. It's a tradeoff I can handle.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by cowerd:
Does the release of Longhorn erase IE for OS X from your harddrive? Or were you planning to switch by then.

No, as I said in my original post, I can't stand people who claim "if Apple doesn't do this I am switching". I have been a mac user for over 10 yrs, and I am not planning a switch.

Hyperbole is fine, but at least tread the fine line of realism.

BTW Uncle Bill still says Longhorn in 2005 (a couple of days ago in fact). Better rethink that prediction.

Exactly my point, realism. When do you think the gear up for Longhorn will be? About a year from now, with full end user roll out early 2005. M$ developer kits, IE/LonghornExplorer coding kits etc, will go out in 2004, and the web will already have started to 'conform' for the longhorn release.

Yes, I can can still leave IE on my drive, which is what I do now, but how long before it says "you are using a version of IE that is incompatible with this bank/movieticketsite/website - please click here: www.microshaft.com to succomb to the dark side and sell your soul"

I am not going anywhere, but I have the ability to see through the haze, the average 'switcher' looking to buy a PC will walk up to the model in CompUSA and say 'it doesn't have internet explorer? How do you use the web? - I was an Apple rep in CompUSA - people ARE that retarded.

Anyway, just frustrated. the web was supposed to be a place where no one had a proprietary format, where we could all hold hands and sing, and M$ has gone and sullied it. I hope it doesn't affect my mac experience.

Lee

[Phoenix1701]

Originally posted by Millennium:
If we had only accepted that HTML is a type of code, and code requires validation, we would not be in the mess that we are in today. The standards would be clear and well-defined, and compatibility problems would be far less of an issue, if they were an issue at all.

I agree wholeheartedly!

Originally posted by Millennium:
If your Web developer cannot make a site work in Mozilla, or even Safari, then he is in the wrong line of work. That's a lack off talent which would be unforgivable in any other field. It doesn't take a lot of work, and it's not hard, and don't ever let any Web "designer" tell you otherwise.

This would be true as well except for one problem: no browser, even Safari, conforms entirely to Web standards, so the ability to write "good HTML" (that is, standards-compliant) is not the same as the ability to write code that works across all browsers. The latter often requires hacks and tricks (such as these) that by all rights should cause a syntax error, and are almost certain not to work if browsers in the future become more standards-compliant. It's very difficult for a Web designer to be part of the solution, and not much easier simply to avoid being part of the problem. Most Web pages that work across all browsers do so by using only elements that have been around since 1997, mostly nested tables, a practice that wreaks havoc on text-based browsers and destroys any semblance of separation of display from function. (The very page you're currently looking at is mostly nested tables.) Being able to create complex pages that don't use tables and still work across all browsers is a lot of work, and it is not easy, especially if you're not willing to compromise your design in order to convince some browser to toe the line. Some of the bugs out there are absolutely insane: for example, in the current builds of Mozilla, the following code:

Code:
<div><img src="foo.gif"><img align="right" src="bar.gif"></div>

displays completely wrong, as does using a float:right declaration in CSS. The developers know about the bug, but have apparently been too busy complaining about how hard it is to fix to actually fix it. The workaround is to specify the second image first, which again screws up text browsers.
I would say I can't wait for the day when all major browsers support all of CSS1 and CSS2 completely, but I've been doing this sort of thing long enough to know that by then we'll be talking about Netscape's lacking support for CSS7, and current good design techniques will be just as deprecated as using tables is today.
Anyway, sorry for the rant... in short, I agree with 90% of what Millenium said, but I would submit that by the time you've tried every possible way of making something work without going into FrontPage Mode, then finally got it working only to discover that the next style you apply breaks the previous one on IE6 for Windows, you may be amazed to discover how many hours have vanished to be replaced inexplicably by grey hairs. In the end, it's worth it, as you may be quite sure that your pages will continue to work well into the future and you get that sort of warm squishy feeling associated with elegant, functional code; but then you watch some script kiddie throw together something in his pirated copy of Dreamweaver that looks and acts almost exactly the same using tables and JavaScript, and wonder if anyone really even bothers viewing source anymore.

[yellowdog]

Originally posted by LeeG:
Let me add www.fandango.com to the growing list (yes I submitted it to apple), cannot log in to my account to buy tickets.

FWIW -- I just tried it with my setup Safari 1.0 v85 and I hd no trouble logging in and navigating the various menu choices.

[Big Mac]

It's true that some will deride the Mac platform for lacking IE. But the writing was on the wall with the first and last OS X release of IE. MS didn't want to commit anymore resources to it. If the choice is between choking down MS' browser leavings or taking Apple's route instead, I don't think many would choose the former. I found out just now that one of my credit card sites isn't Safari compliant, but I'm not worried. As long as Mozilla remains in some sort of active development, there's a recourse.

[clarkgoble]

I've never had trouble buying and printing tickets from fandango or cinimark. Indeed I've not found a site I couldn't use with Safari 1.0. It is less stable than the earlier betas by far, but works with far more pages.

[kcmac]

Our bank of 20 years is not mac compatable. Asked them many times when they plan on being compatable. Get the same old tired response, "We are evaluating it."

My wife and I changed banks. A bank is a bank is a bank. Evaluate that.

[Link]

Ya know I find this quite funny about how it's "HARDER" to code for ALL browsers.

I suppose if you type with a blindfold...

I find it usually harder to get my sites to work correctly in IE (lol) and a few days ago removed support for IE (much like buymusic removed support for macs) on my site.

Frankly I don't care, most of my users have Mozilla or use linux anyway.

For details go to www.talesmud.com in IE

This comes after working on www.superzetroid.com.. where some versions of IE would load it, some wouldn't, and some would just make a mess of it.

It's weird I suppose.. but everything's weird in my land roflmao.

[Person Man]

Originally posted by Big Mac:
It's true that some will deride the Mac platform for lacking IE. But the writing was on the wall with the first and last OS X release of IE. MS didn't want to commit anymore resources to it.

Actually, IE 6.0 for the Mac DOES exist. It is embedded in MSN Explorer for Macintosh. You still have to sign up for MSN service to use it, though. But it DOES exist.

I don't know if that will be the last version, but Microsoft did say they weren't going to make a STANDALONE IE anymore... for any platform. Who knows, IE 7 may one day come out for the Macintosh, as part of MSN Explorer.

[justinkim]

Originally posted by sushiism:
as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

Often, it isn't up to the designer. They get told to code to IE and not to bother with any other browsers.

I'm a web designer, and almost every time I point out a rendering or scripting problem, I get told not to fix it. Even if the client/manager cares, they don't have the budget to spend time on it. If one browser has 95% of the traffic, most purse string holders won't want to worry about the other 5%.

I'd much rather have an IE-compatible browser than a standards compliant one. As MS adds more an more proprietary stuff to IE, more and more of the web will be closed off to the rest of us.

[hart]

I haven't had any difficulty up until today but all of a sudden I couldn't connect to LLBean. I downloaded Safari Debugger and I can now connect but it's still irritating.

I complained to them and told them I was using Safari and a Mac so they know we're out here and also did the bug thing for Apple.

Are other people able to connect? Is it just me?

[kennedy]

Originally posted by sushiism:
as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

So, every web designer should have on their desk a Mac with Camino, Mozilla, Netscape, OmniWeb, Safari and IE, in addition to their PC?? And then they should fully test their website in each of those, even though almost nobody uses them... and if something's not working well, they should redesign their website that works great for 98% of the population such that it works less great for the 98% but works better for the 2%.

Yeah, whatever.

Note, this isn't just about "write to standards". Safari doesn't implement the standards properly. They aren't sinning like Microsloth by intentionally violating and extending the standards, but they do have bugs.

And yes, its not fair that everyone tests their websites on IE... making it easy for IE to appear rock solid, even though its just as buggy as the rest... but you can't expect web designers to solve the problem.

I have a fairly large website. I built it on a Mac using Dreamweaver. I follow the standards and periodically test with a validator to make sure nothing funny has been introduced. IE, on both Mac and PC, renders my website properly. Neither Safari nor Mozilla do. They are just small errors, but they are errors. Fixing them would require me to introduce a bunch of invisible "spacer" objects to get things to line up the way the standard says they should... not worth the trouble for the minor placement issue for less than 5% of my target audience.

Apple needs to fix all the bugs in Safari and make it rock solid and easy for developers to build their websites for. Provide a validator that can be run on a PeeCee that will warn of things likely to be problematic in Safari... making it really easy for the non-Mac-owning website developer to try to work with Macs.

And we can help, too! PLEASE send in error messages... let Apple know what's not working... they made it easy to do... look in the Safari menu, second item... Report Bugs to Apple.


P.S. Just yesterday, I had to use IE to order an iMac from the Apple Store. Yep, whenever I pulled up www.apple.com in Safari, Safari unexpectedly quit!! (I periodically see that behavior!)

[mitchell_pgh]

I just can't F@#$ing stand it when they go out of their way to make Safari (or the Mac) NOT work!!!!!

You don't have to develop content for my computer of choice, but at least let me look!!!

http://www.movielink.com

and about another hundred sites. I hate having to trick them into letting me look around!

[hart]

here is the response from LL Bean. At least they sound like they're working on it and not just dismissing the mac-using customer base:

Thank you for contacting L.L.Bean. I am sorry for the difficulties you have experienced.

At this time Safari is not fully compatible with our site. A temporary fix is to just use either Netscape or Internet Explorer to register once, restart your computer, and log into your account using the safari web browser. Then you may continue to use Safari to order from us, by logging into your account first.

We have been in touch with Apple about the problem. We do want the online process to work for all our customers, and hope to have a resolution to this problem in the future.

If you are still having difficulties please contact one of our Technical Representatives at 800-441-5713, we will be happy to further assist you.

I appreciate your continued interest in L.L.Bean and look forward to hearing from you in the future.

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by kennedy:
So, every web designer should have on their desk a Mac with Camino, Mozilla, Netscape, OmniWeb, Safari and IE, in addition to their PC??

Uh - yeah. Don't make it sound like such a chore. That's their job.

Anyway, Camino, Mozilla and Netscape all use the same rendering engine, so 99% of the time, if it works on one, it will work on all. Then just make sure it works in WebCore (Safari and OmniWeb) and you're set. Do you believe that every web designer should not bother testing their site on multiple platforms and browsers? I sure hope you're not a web developer.

[kennedy]

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
Uh - yeah. Don't make it sound like such a chore. That's their job.

Yeah, right. But totally unrealistic. The majority of the websites out there do not have a budget that would support that. I *do* have multiple machines and test on multiple platforms... but that's because I am a Mac guy. You can keep that attitude, but I sure hope Apple doesn't adopt it...

Apple needs to recognize that they need to make it easy for web developers to work with them. The goal isn't to sell a few extra Macs to web developers with a big budget... the goal is customer satisfaction among all the Mac users out there... and that means Safari needs to work with any site that IE works with... and that means they need to make it easy for low-budget web developers to keep their sites compatible. Two ways to do that:

1) Make sure Safari conforms to IE as well as the standards (IE *is* a standard, like it or not).

2) Provide a PeeCee development tool that will detect things that are non-standard or will likely cause incompatibilities with Safari.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by sushiism:
as a web designer if someone doesnt work in mozilla/camino then its entirely the web designers fault

Well said.

I do all my design testing in OmniWeb. (Of course, I test in the other browsers at the end before going live.) I've never had problems with my code not working in other browsers.

Only minor problem I had was that my top radio button in a set was 2 pixels further right in IE than in Omni. 2 pixels is not a huge problem


Amorya

[eevyl]

Internet Explorer for Windows have BIG and BAD rendering bugs since forever, they do not fix them.

If you just make a web 100% standard, and for example make use of the most basic CSS, the chances are that it will render improperly in IE for Windows. It is a fact.

Why Microsoft do not fix these errors is beyond my knowledge, as a lot of them are fixed in the now discontinued IE 5 for Mac OS X.

Sure Apple could go and keep coding bad on purpose to render the web pages the same as IE. But my sicotic mind thinks that if Microsoft notice, they will suddenly transform the "standard" to something else, provide a patch for IE for Windows, and let the story start again.

So I think yes, Microsoft owns the web. If you develop a perfect web page, that renders beautifully in Safari, Mozilla, Opera, IE for Mac, but extremely bad on IE for PC, and then a PC user visits your webpage he/she will think right away that the "web page is bad designed". They will never think IE for PC is the one to blame. Resistance is futile...

[kennedy]

Originally posted by eevyl:
Sure Apple could go and keep coding bad on purpose to render the web pages the same as IE. But my sicotic mind thinks that if Microsoft notice, they will suddenly transform the "standard" to something else, provide a patch for IE for Windows, and let the story start again.

So I think yes, Microsoft owns the web.

Its not quite that bad. MS doesn't really own the web. The current IE does. If MS put out a new version of IE that broke a bunch of web sites, then it would be uniformly thrashed by the entire world and all would be recommended to stay with the old version. That is, MS is trapped by IE (the standards it sets) as much as anyone else. To deny that you, as a web browser maker or website developer, are trapped by that, is to doom your web browser or website.

Now, with that said, MS does have a huge benefit from IE's ownership of the web... as it allows them to add new stuff or slowly shift stuff that will get adopted very quick relative to anything anybody else can do. That's a lot of leverage... must be nice to be the standards setter.

[Mediaman_12]

So you don't think Microsoft IE 'owns' the web.

So lets see, a good example is .png images. Despite that it's a standard that's been around for ages, that can lead to smaller and better looking images, they aren't very popular. Do you know why? It's because IE doesn't display them properly or not at all.
Any body who makes money creating web sites, and moans (it's just to difficult, it will take loads more time, what's the point, etc, etc) about 'real' standards (not MS's IE 'standard') needs to read this book It has excellent reasons and examples for creating 'modern' webpages. Not ones that look like they where coded in 1997.

And Link. if you have decided to bar IE from your site why not go all out and create a 'modern' CSS driven site (all the 'problems' associated with CSS layout arise from IE Win 5 & 6's own interpretation of the standard). It can give you pages that are smaller quicker and easer to update. here is a CSS layout that may work for you & hear is some good info about going to CSS layout.

[Truepop]

The funny thing is the last few sites I have made looked better in Safari and Mozilla than in IE. I don't think IE handles CSS very well.