[:dragonflypro:]

Many of us spend an significant portion of our day using email. For many, it is the life blood. So I wonder why it is that the offerings of a modern professional email application for X really does not exist.

So, I am thinking there is probably one firm that could actually do it: OmniGroup.

Something that goes beyond Mail.app, the features of Entourage, Eudora and MailSmith but wrapped in a UI that only Omni can seemingly deliver. An app that leaves useless features (buddy online, etc).

Of the top of my head, things to be included..using Mail.app features as a base:

- Threading that actually works across mailboxes
- a robust search feature
- robust rules
- User defined categories that can be manually set or by rules
- Multiple Flag types
- Priorities
- Built in formatting, not clumsy shaped palettes.
- Ability to send HTML email
- Junk FIlter (Spam Sieve, etc)l
- A UI that only Omni can deliver.

Of course, it would include integration with AddressBook, iCal and other Core Services.

I am sure there are others...

Discuss.

Omni: Ever thought about this? Ever consider it?

OmniMail: $59.95
The last word in email.

My New Years Wish!

[Mr. Blur]

this has been discussed before. if i recall correctly, the reply from omni was a pretty firm "no"

[:dragonflypro:]

DOH! That bites.

Mail had so much promise... and just seems to be lacking in love.

Don't get me wrong...I use it, I like it well enough...

But it can go so many places...

Email is that odd beast. It sounds flat and boring...but it is becoming ever more a HUGE part of our day. And good enough just isn't enough anymore.

There was once SweetMail, but it died. GyazMail shows promise...but only one dev makes it slow going.

Sigh.

[MrBS]

Not that it wouldn't be cool. Mail.app started out as one of the most promising os x applications and for me is one of the most disappointing.

~BS

[andretan]

Mail.app is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his e-mail program.

I don't like Mail.app because of the pull out sidebar thingy. It's clumsy, and occupies screen space. I wish that it would be smaller or even user adjustable.

And no, I don't wish to use Outlook.

If there was going to be a Mail.app replacement, it BETTER work with Address Book and iCal and etc.

IMHO.

[Sarc]

I actually like Mail.app (panther version that is).
I liked entourage too, but it just didn't feel like Mac OS X, plus I didn't need the extra stuff it had, just mail.

My only gripe towards Mail.app is it's crappy attachment management. It was improved a little in the panther version, but I still get problem from PC ppl. trying to open Word docs. for instance.

[andretan]

Originally posted by Sarc:
I actually like Mail.app (panther version that is).
I liked entourage too, but it just didn't feel like Mac OS X, plus I didn't need the extra stuff it had, just mail.

My only gripe towards Mail.app is it's crappy attachment management. It was improved a little in the panther version, but I still get problem from PC ppl. trying to open Word docs. for instance.

I thought there's this Attach Windows-friendly attachments option in Panther Mail?

Have you tried it yet?

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by andretan:
Mail.app is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his e-mail program.

You've just figured out the universal constant behind all of Apple's consumer apps.

Replace Mail.app and "e-mail program" with any other combination of Apple consumer product and you'll see what I mean.

Examples: Safari is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his web browser.

iMovie is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his non-linear video editor.

iChat is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his instant messenger app.

etc. and so forth.

I don't know if this is just Apple's philosophy of design or an intentional move to ensure opportunities for third parties.

[oVeRmInD911]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
You've just figured out the universal constant behind all of Apple's consumer apps.

Replace Mail.app and "e-mail program" with any other combination of Apple consumer product and you'll see what I mean.

Examples: Safari is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his web browser.

iMovie is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his non-linear video editor.

iChat is good for the average user who doesn't have lots of demands for his instant messenger app.

etc. and so forth.

I don't know if this is just Apple's philosophy of design or an intentional move to ensure opportunities for third parties.

They only give away their basic apps. Big, robust apps like Final Cut Pro aren't released for free. So they keep their iApps/bundled software down to create a market for users with cash who want more than what they're given for free. Or something.

[cpac]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
- Threading that actually works across mailboxes
- a robust search feature
- robust rules
- User defined categories that can be manually set or by rules
- Multiple Flag types
- Priorities
- Built in formatting, not clumsy shaped palettes.
- Ability to send HTML email
- Junk FIlter (Spam Sieve, etc)l
- A UI that only Omni can deliver.

Well first off, while I love OmniGroup, I think they have their hands full currently between OG, OO, and OO (not to mention the great little utilities OmniDictionary & OmniDisksweeper) and all the consultation/work they do for game companies and the like.

But more to the point: Mail.app is pretty durn good as it is. Yes it has some annoyances, but so does every app out there.

to your specific points:

- how much more robust do you need the search to be? Westlaw like searches? (look for word X within 10 words of Y???)
- rules are much more robust in Panther - what do you need to do that you can't already?
- categories? (like adding a color, but a word instead?)
- by built in formatting, I assume you mean having the font/color buttons appear within a window? (they appear exactly as they do in mail in OmniOutliner, and are till pallets of sorts in OmniGraffle...)
- HTML mail is the devil, but I agree that some increase in capabilities, even if limited to the signature, might be useful
- Mail's got a pretty durn good spam filter as it is...
- Omni's U.I. are definitely incredible - but at least initially, this brilliance came from providing Aqua-compliant apps. Since then, (esp. w/ OG 3) they've certainly improved things, but I'm not sure how much room for improvement there is in Mail. Sure some people hate the drawer: but the alternative itunes-like sidebar would surely take up just as much space. Just leave the drawer open...

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by cpac:
- how much more robust do you need the search to be? Westlaw like searches? (look for word X within 10 words of Y???)

Being able to do something like "find an e-mail message with this word in it that was sent by this user before this date and after that date" would be handy sometimes.

- rules are much more robust in Panther - what do you need to do that you can't already?

It would be nice to be able to apply rules to outgoing mail instead of only incoming mail.

[MrBS]

Panther solved a couple of problems (and introduced a couple), but the app is pretty rough.

Panther version does its hidden junk mail rule after all of your rules, so it's broken to anyone who sorts their email (and then has stop applying rules).

You can't select an email address to copy it from panther mail, and the contextual menu for the user droplet thing doesn't have a copy in it.

Space bar moves to the next message when you're at the bottom of an email, so if you hit spacebar a few times to get to the bottom of the message you're suddenly a few (short) messages down.

It constantly screws up with passwords. There's no indication on the dock icon when a few of your accounts aren't actually online anymore because it suddenly thinks the password doesn't work.

It's "Entire Message" search is NOT the entire message, just the message body. There's no way to search the entire message.

Terrible keyboard navigation.

Bad implementation of 'threading'.

No way to edit multiple accounts, many of the settings are a few clicks deep in a not so speedy interface.

New user gets a 'wizard', which is bad according to apple. And this wizard doesn't have many of the more advanced options. So users are forced into the vanilla settings which many mail servers (especially universities) require (like ssl). So your first experience with it is it a) sending your password cleartext and then b) failing. You need to hit cancel a bunch of times (trying to speedily do this for a friend I got stuck in a loop because the cancel button jumps back and forth in the 3 dialog boxes) and then go into the account setup screen (where you should be from the beginning) and then actually configure the account. (This was in Jag mail, not sure if they fixed it.

Mail gets flummoxed with large mail boxes or big commands.

Mail doesn't do a good job with their 'only grabbing headers'.

Mail (I believe) can only sort IMAP messages locally, which can be done on the server (like, before you download a few thousand messages to find the 1 you want).

Basically it went from one of the things I was most excited about in OS X to something that's constantly annoying me.

~BS

[Tim2 at Omni]

I really like Mail. For such an old application, it has remained surprisingly well-focused and bloat-free. It could use some improvements to its Rules system, and it's been a little slow for me up until Panther came out, but overall I think it's a very solid app.

We're currently in the process of revamping three major applications. I don't know if it's really the right time to start thinking about writing a completely new one!

[Rickster]

IIRC, we're already thinking about writing a completely new app (or several), but it isn't a mail client.

As Tim2 said, most of us at Omni are happy enough with Apple Mail. Happy enough, at least, that when we consider the large investment in man-hours it takes just to make a basic mail client, it usually looks like more trouble than it's worth. Also, the "old hands" around here (every engineer but me and Tim2) remember that we wrote a mail app once before, and apparently it wasn't a very happy experience. Not to mention that we're already competing against one free/bundled Apple product... I'm not sure we'd consider it a good business venture to compete against another.

But that's just my $.02, not an official company statement... Omni may be of a different mind in the future.

[cpac]

Originally posted by MrBS:
Panther version does its hidden junk mail rule after all of your rules, so it's broken to anyone who sorts their email (and then has stop applying rules).

Or you could just create a rule for yourself that says: "If messages is junk, move to junk, stop evaluating rules" and have that be the first rule...

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by Sarc:
My only gripe towards Mail.app is it's crappy attachment management. It was improved a little in the panther version, but I still get problem from PC ppl. trying to open Word docs. for instance.

Yep, it drives me nuts ! I was supposed to be fixed.

[Tsilou B.]

Has anyone here tried GnuMail? It's Cocoa, it's open source and it seems to have many features already.

http://www.collaboration-world.com/c...ndex.cgi?pid=2

I personally haven't installed it yet, so I have no idea if it's usable...

[JKT]

Originally posted by Rickster:
IIRC, we're already thinking about writing a completely new app (or several), but it isn't a mail client.

Not content with teasing us Omni-freaks in one thread, they spread it to another too...

Mark me down as another satisfied Mail user, although I truly would count myself as Mr. Average in this instance. It's always done exactly what I needed from 10.0 and has only become better with each release.

[BZ]

I would NOT go after this market if I were OmniGroup.

First of all, Mail.app is pretty darn good. Add to that that you have other apps (BareBones) and free app (Thunderbird) Mail is a losing area.

To be successful on the Mac OSX platform I would suggest developing applications that Apple sees as pro-sumer and not something it would/should ship with every mac. Apple likes to bundle things up, but usually stays away from things that are two complex or not a big sales across all lines.

OmniWeb is great (and I bought it and will buy OW 5.0) but if OG were to start again, in this market I would stay away from the Browsers. Pay browsers are going to have a long fight to fight.

OmniGraffle is a great example. Not much competition (so much that Apple is bundling it) tons of uses, big audience, high perceived value.

OmniOutliner is also a good one. Low price, pretty easy implementation and not too time consuming from a programming point of view. Not a ton of competition either. If they added Syncing to the Palm (memo) I would be all over it.

Now, since I have proven I know NOTHING about this market, let me bring out my suggestions for OmniGroup (remember, if you want my resume... just ask! )

OmniGroup is very strong in UI design, in taking a common application and adding a higher level of thought to it. They are great using all of the complexities and power of OSX (Cocoa) since they have been in the business for so long.

I think OmniGroup needs a small, little $10 - $15 utility. Ambrosia does this well with iSeek and the capture utility. OG could do well to come up with a small, highly visible, very useful utility. Maybe something along the lines of plugin for one of Apples apps. Something for Mail, or iPhoto. The great thing about a small utility is you can use the software update sites, to release updates often and get more quick purchases.

I think there are a ton of little applications in the webmaster arena that could be found and built (look to windows). FTP and HTML have been nailed but CSS, bookmark management, SEP (search engine positioning), JavaScript and other areas are still open.

TyrantulaX is a great application that needs a company behind it.
http://www.animalaesthetics.com/tyrantula/

Ok... that is enough for my Sat morning monkey talk.

BZ

[MacGorilla]

I think Omni would do a stellar job at email client but alas, no. mail.app is okay for me tho these days I am using Mozilla Thunderbird.

[Sarc]

Originally posted by andretan:
I thought there's this Attach Windows-friendly attachments option in Panther Mail?

Have you tried it yet?

can't seem to find it. where is it exactly ?

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
Many of us spend an significant portion of our day using email. For many, it is the life blood. So I wonder why it is that the offerings of a modern professional email application for X really does not exist.

So, I am thinking there is probably one firm that could actually do it: OmniGroup.

Something that goes beyond Mail.app, the features of Entourage, Eudora and MailSmith but wrapped in a UI that only Omni can seemingly deliver. An app that leaves useless features (buddy online, etc).

Of the top of my head, things to be included..using Mail.app features as a base:

- Threading that actually works across mailboxes
- a robust search feature
- robust rules
- User defined categories that can be manually set or by rules
- Multiple Flag types
- Priorities
- Built in formatting, not clumsy shaped palettes.
- Ability to send HTML email
- Junk FIlter (Spam Sieve, etc)l
- A UI that only Omni can deliver.

Of course, it would include integration with AddressBook, iCal and other Core Services.

I am sure there are others...

Discuss.

Omni: Ever thought about this? Ever consider it?

OmniMail: $59.95
The last word in email.

My New Years Wish!

59.95!?! I think I'll stick with the Mail app. There's already Entourage, Eudora, and Mailsmith. Now, I bet OmniMail could do it better: combining a good UI with IMAP support (unlike Mailsmith,) junk mail filtering from Eudora, support for the OS X address book from Mail, etc. But with three sophisticated programs out there already, I have doubt about room for another one.
EDIT: And thunderbird.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Rickster:
IIRC, we're already thinking about writing a completely new app (or several), but it isn't a mail client.

As Tim2 said, most of us at Omni are happy enough with Apple Mail. Happy enough, at least, that when we consider the large investment in man-hours it takes just to make a basic mail client, it usually looks like more trouble than it's worth. Also, the "old hands" around here (every engineer but me and Tim2) remember that we wrote a mail app once before, and apparently it wasn't a very happy experience. Not to mention that we're already competing against one free/bundled Apple product... I'm not sure we'd consider it a good business venture to compete against another.

But that's just my $.02, not an official company statement... Omni may be of a different mind in the future.

What was your old mail client called?

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by Sarc:
can't seem to find it. where is it exactly ?

in the Edit menu, Attachments -> "always send windoze friendly attachments"

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by andretan:
I wish that it would be smaller or even user adjustable.)

It is. Drag the edge of the drawer.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Sarc:
can't seem to find it. where is it exactly ?

Edit>Attachments>Send Windows-friendly attachments.

[ryaxnb]

Especially with Apple giving you product placement, eh? http://guide.apple.com/uscategories/internet.lasso

[CharlesS]

Exactly what does "Windows-friendly attachments" do?

Does it just turn off AppleDouble encoding, or what?

[MrBS]

Originally posted by cpac:
Or you could just create a rule for yourself that says: "If messages is junk, move to junk, stop evaluating rules" and have that be the first rule...

That's what I do as a work around, and if you want to know where the junk came from you need to do a separate rule for every account if you want to know where the junk mails going to (assuming your addy isn't in the to field).

Plus, it took me a long time to figure out what was wrong at all, it just seemed that the junk filter got really really stupid with the upgrade.

And the fact that there's a work around (which basically exactly undoes the change they made in panther) doesn't mean that it's not a crappy choice for the mail team to make.
~BS

[justinkim]

For me, Eudora is nearly perfect. I really like the interface and the filters are reasonably powerful and easy to use.

However, there are a couple of problems:

First, it's a processor hog. Pegging the CPU at 100% while checking mail (even while being basically idle while waiting on a PASS command) is not acceptable.

Second, I don't like the idea of a "Dominant" email account, even though the inconveniences caused by that feature can be worked around.

The CPU usage alone would be enough to get me to drop Eudora in favor of another email client if I could find one whose interface I like as well.

[Sarc]

thx. a lot to Mr. Blur and ryaxnb for the tip on the attachments.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by justinkim:
For me, Eudora is nearly perfect. I really like the interface and the filters are reasonably powerful and easy to use.

However, there are a couple of problems:

First, it's a processor hog. Pegging the CPU at 100% while checking mail (even while being basically idle while waiting on a PASS command) is not acceptable.

Wow... is this really true? It's been forever since I used Eudora, but back when I used to use it, it used to be remarkable for its tiny memory footprint and low requirements. It was great for running in the background on old machines... has it changed this much?

[phillryu]

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
I really like Mail. For such an old application, it has remained surprisingly well-focused and bloat-free. It could use some improvements to its Rules system, and it's been a little slow for me up until Panther came out, but overall I think it's a very solid app.

We're currently in the process of revamping three major applications. I don't know if it's really the right time to start thinking about writing a completely new one!

OmniDiskSweeper, OmniWeb, and OmniOutliner needs the biggest updates... any confirmation on this?

[justinkim]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Wow... is this really true? It's been forever since I used Eudora, but back when I used to use it, it used to be remarkable for its tiny memory footprint and low requirements. It was great for running in the background on old machines... has it changed this much?

Sadly, yes. I suspect that it's more sloppy programming or an unwillingness to spend the time to replace old code than Eudora actually needing the resources.

[cpac]

Originally posted by MrBS:
That's what I do as a work around, and if you want to know where the junk came from you need to do a separate rule for every account if you want to know where the junk mails going to (assuming your addy isn't in the to field).

No - you can just tell it to move the mail to Junk without selecting a sub-folder. It automatically moves it to the proper account's subfolder...

[nickm]

The big feature that none of the current mail readers do is provide powerful browsing capabilities. Why is it, in this day and age, I still have to refile my messages into folders manually? Why can't my mail client keep my mail organized the same way iTunes keeps my music organized?

I want to browse my mail by author, date, and recipient list. I want to be able to quickly see all the mail that came in or went out in a particular day without regard to where it is 'filed'. I want a mail client that is smart enough to know that some people have more than one email address, and when I search for mail from a person, I shouldn't have to know every address he ever had.

[BZ]

I couldn't agree more. They need to take developers off of one project and put them on another.

I think that Smart Searches (Smart Lists) would be a great idea and help to all mail users.

I would set up:
- Emails today (all emails that came in today that are not junk or from mailing list)
- Emails from Family (All emails from anyone in family group in addressbook).
- Open Orders (all emails that are not junk, that have "order" or "shipped" in the subject or body that are in the last month).

BZ

Originally posted by nickm:
The big feature that none of the current mail readers do is provide powerful browsing capabilities. Why is it, in this day and age, I still have to refile my messages into folders manually? Why can't my mail client keep my mail organized the same way iTunes keeps my music organized?

I want to browse my mail by author, date, and recipient list. I want to be able to quickly see all the mail that came in or went out in a particular day without regard to where it is 'filed'. I want a mail client that is smart enough to know that some people have more than one email address, and when I search for mail from a person, I shouldn't have to know every address he ever had.

[fortepianissimo]

Read some complaints about Mail.app - if you feel the rule system is a bit limited especially for the purpose of matching junk mails, take a look here:

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/13452

[Aiglos]

How about thunderbird as an alternative? Although I currently use mail as my main app, I'm eventually going to switch to Thunderbird.

It's got a fugly interface since a lot of the interface elements borrow from Windows, but if you can tolerate that, it's a pretty good alternative.

[Gee4orce]

Wow - you guy should all be forced to use Outlook for a while. You'll soon appreaciate just how good an email client Mail really is after that !

[Sven G]

I would really like Apple's Mail to adopt the standard sidebar (instead of the drawer), as in the interesting GyazMail shareware app (which is, BTW, very Mail.app-like in almost every aspect):



(click for big image).

[Diggory Laycock]

Whoever wanted very searchable email try ZOE:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14677