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Krypton · Dec 7, 2003, 06:48 AM

To anyone who's after the fastest browser, with one of the prettiest interfaces (

) might do well to try one of the latest Firebird for Mac builds.

Here's a pic from the latest build to wet your appetite, after some clean ups in the Mac version checked in last night.

Gul Banana · Dec 7, 2003, 06:54 AM

"whet"

Seqiro · Dec 7, 2003, 11:32 AM

Is it me, or am I noticing that the logo that has a picture of the Apple store on it is a screen cap of a WinXP window?

voodoo · Dec 7, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
"whet"

indeed

whet is not wet

Chinasaur · 02:07 PM

Good call! It is fast!

Thx for heads up.

**Later** - I can't believe how slow Safari is compared to Firebird. I thought my cable modem had slowed down. I had no idea Safar i was that much slower. Camino also looks slow compared to this.

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 7, 2003, 01:37 PM

It looks like Safari in Aqua.

So how many times an hour does it crash?

bmedina · Dec 7, 2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
So how many times an hour does it crash?

Maybe once a week for me. I'll let you do the math as to how many crashes/hour that is.

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 7, 2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by bmedina:
Maybe once a week for me. I'll let you do the math as to how many crashes/hour that is.

ya right. I bet you $20 that if I download this app and surf normally I will have it melting in less then 15 minutes.

Mike S. · Dec 7, 2003, 02:44 PM

That's sharp looking.

I've got two existing issues with Firebird, well three really.

1) Form widgets are ugly. Camino has a good work around in that it simulates native widgets.

2) Text rendering is ugly at smaller point sizes (no, it's not my global OS settings) and I don't want to use humongous Windows size fonts just to make things look decent.

3) No spell checking in form fields but this is being added as a Mozilla feature according to Mozillazine.

Have either one or two been addressed with the latest nightlies?

Mr Scruff · Dec 7, 2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Chinasaur:
**Later** - I can't believe how slow Safari is compared to Firebird. I thought my cable modem had slowed down. I had no idea Safar i was that much slower. Camino also looks slow compared to this.

Not sure why you think this, for me it's significantly slower than Safari in launch time, page rendering, and UI responsiveness.

Krypton · Dec 7, 2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Mike S.:
That's sharp looking.

I've got two existing issues with Firebird, well three really.

1) Form widgets are ugly. Camino has a good work around in that it simulates native widgets.

2) Text rendering is ugly at smaller point sizes (no, it's not my global OS settings) and I don't want to use humongous Windows size fonts just to make things look decent.

3) No spell checking in form fields but this is being added as a Mozilla feature according to Mozillazine.

Have either one or two been addressed with the latest nightlies?

1. I agree, but native Aqua widgets discard any appearence the web designer intended - I think a good compromise is needed.

2. Text rendering is great for me apart from some bold fonts, which I agree look rough.

3. Probably left out for a future release, as is non essential.

As to speed advantage, I think it is much greater compared to other browsers on slower machines - e.g. my iMac 400.

bmedina · Dec 7, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
ya right. I bet you $20 that if I download this app and surf normally I will have it melting in less then 15 minutes.

Yes, let's make a bet about a web browser's uptime.

Why don't you try giving it a shot before dismissing it? Don't you think if it crashed every 15 minutes, no one would be using it?

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 7, 2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by bmedina:
Yes, let's make a bet about a web browser's uptime.

Why don't you try giving it a shot before dismissing it? Don't you think if it crashed every 15 minutes, no one would be using it?

Because I have tried every damn Netscape variant over the past 3 years and not one of them can go for 5-10 minutes without crashing.

Safari is wonderful.

justinkim · Dec 7, 2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Because I have tried every damn Netscape variant over the past 3 years and not one of them can go for 5-10 minutes without crashing.

Safari is wonderful.

Safari is nice, but if you can't keep Mozilla/Netscape/Firebird up more than 5-10 minutes, something's wrong with your machine.

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 7, 2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by justinkim:
Safari is nice, but if you can't keep Mozilla/Netscape/Firebird up more than 5-10 minutes, something's wrong with your machine.

Yes all 15+ machines with OS9 through 10.3 over that past 3 years are the real problem not the software

Chinasaur · Dec 7, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
Not sure why you think this, for me it's significantly slower than Safari in launch time, page rendering, and UI responsiveness.

I don't think it's faster..it IS faster on my machine. I have a B&W 800Mhz and Firebird renders faster than Safari. True it launches slower but that's only once or twice a day so it doesn't matter.

Mike S. · Dec 7, 2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Krypton:
1. I agree, but native Aqua widgets discard any appearence the web designer intended - I think a good compromise is needed.

I personally feel widgetry is not part of a site design, they are an element of the operating system UI but I've seen how this discussion can turn into a cyclical mess and I'm not going to go there.

If you want to talk compromises my feeling is that sites that don't specify how widgets should look get the native emulation where as sites that do should get the custom appearance.

In the end, it's the user that should decide what the widgets looks like not the web designer. I mean, browsers already let you specify custom fonts, colors and even stylesheets that will let you override a site design. It seems silly for designers to argue about widgetry...

2. Text rendering is great for me apart from some bold fonts, which I agree look rough.

Certain sites have small fonts that look very rough, almost non-AAed while other sites have small fonts that look fine. I don't know why this is. This forum is one that has rough looking small fonts, news.com used to be another but only it's links to other stories of the day in the sidebar. I haven't looked at the new design in Camino lately.

I used to have a screenshot comparing the two but it's gone. I could always take another one though.

justinkim · Dec 7, 2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Yes all 15+ machines with OS9 through 10.3 over that past 3 years are the real problem not the software

I don't know what to tell you, dude. Neither I nor anyone else I know have had that kind of problem. Maybe it's you.

Mike S. · Dec 7, 2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Yes all 15+ machines with OS9 through 10.3 over that past 3 years are the real problem not the software

I've used Mozilla variants on Mac OS 9, Mac OS X, Windows 9x and Window XP and none of them were any less stable than any other product on the platform.

The Mac OS Mozilla builds I found had odd problems that made me stop using them, UI issues with it turning into a tiny box or toolbars disappearing, etc.. It happened so often I just gave up.

Camino and Firebird have been great and the products always worked fine on Windows.

If these things crash every 15 minutes you must have some old files from previous versions laying around that are messing with it.

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 7, 2003, 05:38 PM

I should try it out on my new Dual G5 at home that has never seen any netscape. I'll also have a stopwatch on screen and see it fold in less then 10 minutes.

Chinasaur · Dec 7, 2003, 07:10 PM

Kmart..then it must be your aura..because as common sense tells us...if your experience were the norm..then it would be common knowledge and been fixed by now.

It's weird you have this history with this family of products.

Best of luck in the future.

wataru · Dec 7, 2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
I should try it out on my new Dual G5 at home that has never seen any netscape. I'll also have a stopwatch on screen and see it fold in less then 10 minutes.

What bullshit. If Mozilla and variants were as bad as you say, then they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

I use Firebird fulltime on my computer, as it's much faster than Safari on dialup. I upgrade to new nightlies almost daily and it hasn't crashed in months.

I say you're full of ****.

Chinasaur · Dec 7, 2003, 08:21 PM

All,

The bookmark bug is still with us. ie - you can see a sorted list of marks in Bookmark Manager but it doesn't display sorted in normal view.

Using Mozilla Bookmark Sorter (mbs.mozdev.org) you can sort your marks quickly.

Download, unzip to a folder. Open a Terminal and nav to the mbs folder. Issue "java -jar mbs.jar" and wait till the GUI window pops up. make sure Firebird is not running. Then navigate to your bookmarks folder. Open and it sorts automatically. To be safe, make a copy of your bookmarks first eh?

Boot Firebird and voila....sorted bookmarks in your menu.

Oneota · Dec 7, 2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Chinasaur:

Download, unzip to a folder. Open a Terminal and nav to the mbs folder. Issue "java -jar mbs.jar" and wait till the GUI window pops up.

Or, you could just double-click the mbs.jar file.

Sven G · Dec 8, 2003, 02:45 AM

Mozilla Firebird's option to show downloads in the sidebar is great, IMHO: in general, I must say that I really miss the IE/Mozilla sidebar in Safari...

Link · Dec 8, 2003, 06:02 AM

I didn't see an option to show downloads in the sidebar.. whoa where's that?!

Awesome.. firebird's greatly improving over the original but there's a few things that still suck..

1. No adjustable scroll speed: LIKE OMG.. it's so horribly slow >_<

2. should use system's smooth scrolling/options

3. no use of system widgets (yet I have a feeling this is why it renders faster HAHHAA)

4. User agent menu (not necessary but nice)

5. when you pop open a drop-down menu the ability for it to scroll up or down when you get past the top/bottom visible item (I hate the lack of this!)

6. adjustable GIF animation speed (this could be an awesome little feature lol -- fast, normal, off).

these would overall make it such a nicer browser

Sven G · Dec 8, 2003, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by Link:
I didn't see an option to show downloads in the sidebar... whoa where's that?!

It's in a submenu of the "View" menu.

sniffer · Dec 8, 2003, 06:53 AM

If it just had spell checker I would be mucho happier with FB.

Link · Dec 8, 2003, 08:52 AM

do'h!

There's ONE MORE SUPER ANNOYING GLITCH...

while say, a quicktime video loads, it lags so bad you can't do anything in it!! >_<

Krypton · Dec 8, 2003, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Sven G:
It's in a submenu of the "View" menu.

That is true of 0.7, but the latest builds did away with the sidebar when the manager was implemented.

Firebird is a little rough in places, but this is an unfinished project after all. If you look at the roadmap, the Mac version will get some serious attention in 2004

KidRed · Dec 8, 2003, 10:19 AM

Looking at the screen shot of the browser and I notice a cosmetic issue I hope they decide against. Not sure each tab has to have the site's favicon shown. As you can see, 2 of the favicons show a crappy mask job and will only add to the confusion, clutter and crappy appearance to keep them. Why not just drop the favicons or make them close buttons as Apple did?

Sven G · Dec 8, 2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Krypton:
That is true of 0.7, but the latest builds did away with the sidebar when the manager was implemented.

Oh, what a pity!

I really liked the sidebar integration, but of course the manager is also a good thing: let's see what happens in the future, anyway...

passmaster16 · Dec 8, 2003, 12:30 PM

Like Camino, it doesn't have autofill forms and spell check. I wonder if and when they will implement native text fields. I like Camino/Firebird but if they are going to keep up with Safari, they will eventually have to implement these features. Camino is still my primary browser but maybe I'll consider switching to Firebird if they fix the slow scrolling.

KidRed · Dec 8, 2003, 12:51 PM

Ah really? Spell Check and Autofill are about as important as downloading and page rendering to me.

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 8, 2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by wataru:
What bullshit. If Mozilla and variants were as bad as you say, then they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

Same goes for Windows 95 then Smartass

wataru · Dec 8, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Same goes for Windows 95 then Smartass

Yeah, because Mozilla uses unfair business tactics and locks people in with its proprietary office suite

I notice you haven't actually tried Firebird yet. Put your money where your mouth is and give us some specifics on how "unstable" it is. So far you've just been trolling.

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 8, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by wataru:
Yeah, because Mozilla uses unfair business tactics and locks people in with its proprietary office suite

No, because Windows is soo stable, easy to use, crash proof and fun. That is why it has 95% of the market.

How is Mozilla so popular? last I heard it has less then 2% of the market IF that.

Krypton · Dec 8, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
No, because Windows is soo stable, easy to use, crash proof and fun. That is why it has 95% of the market.

How is Mozilla so popular? last I heard it has less then 2% of the market IF that.

2% is probably the largest after IE

Why don't you tell us how Firebird performs for you as someone else suggested. I find the Mozilla varients perfectly stable for me

wataru · Dec 8, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
No, because Windows is soo stable, easy to use, crash proof and fun. That is why it has 95% of the market.

How is Mozilla so popular? last I heard it has less then 2% of the market IF that.

Still trolling, huh?

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Dec 8, 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by wataru:
Still trolling, huh?

Still not answering the question eh. Well I looked up for you and your POPULAR browser is LESS then 1%. Must be a reason for that one.

Moonray · Dec 8, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Yes all 15+ machines with OS9 through 10.3 over that past 3 years are the real problem not the software

Hey, it's that dealer around the corner that sells you cheap RAM for years now

-

wataru · Dec 8, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Still not answering the question eh. Well I looked up for you and your POPULAR browser is LESS then 1%. Must be a reason for that one.

I don't have statistics to back up Mozilla's popularity, but what do you think all the Linux geeks use? Mozilla. And if it's stable enough for the Linux geeks, then it's stable enough for you.

But the real issue here isn't whether or not Mozilla is popular. The issue is whether or not it's stable. And you still have absolutely nothing to back up your claim, so either come up with something concrete, or crawl back into your hole.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Dec 8, 2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by wataru:
I don't have statistics to back up Mozilla's popularity, but what do you think all the Linux geeks use? Mozilla. And if it's stable enough for the Linux geeks, then it's stable enough for you.

But the real issue here isn't whether or not Mozilla is popular. The issue is whether or not it's stable. And you still have absolutely nothing to back up your claim, so either come up with something concrete, or crawl back into your hole.

I got more to back me up then you do. Sorry.

Just because it runs well for Linux geeks who by the way also have a tiny market share does not mean it will run the same on a Mac? Or did you think otherwise.

Plus I have said I have ran Mozilla's on 15 different computers from OS9 to 10.2 over the years and it is horribly unstable.

What else you want? A letter from my mom?

wataru · Dec 8, 2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
I got more to back me up then you do. Sorry.

Just because it runs well for Linux geeks who by the way also have a tiny market share does not mean it will run the same on a Mac? Or did you think otherwise.

Plus I have said I have ran Mozilla's on 15 different computers from OS9 to 10.2 over the years and it is horribly unstable.

What else you want? A letter from my mom?

No, you have nothing but anecdotes. And since you seem to have some sort of anti-Mozilla agenda, you have zero credibility.

I want you to run Firebird and post saying when it crashed and how you got it to crash. Until you do that, you have nothing. How hard is that to understand?

phillryu · Dec 8, 2003, 07:25 PM

Firebird was an interesting change from Safari, but unfortunately, I found its interface much slower and clunkier than Safari on my iBook, so I went back. However, it has some great promise... the actual raw rendering speed was pretty fast, though not significantly faster than Safari, and it was stable for the 15 minutes I used it.

CarbonG4 · Dec 8, 2003, 10:09 PM

I agree w/ Phill... it has promise, when the interface gets there. It's much like Chimera/Camino was in it's early stages at this point. The scrolling is horribly slow even w/ the "smooth scrolling" enabled in the Advanced settings. Also, the combination of Safari and PithHelmet is extremely hard to beat... yes, Firebird does have right-click "Block this crap..." for banner ads, but it isn't effective for the new breed of web advertising -- the flash/shockwave crap. PithHelmet eliminates virtually all banner ads and collapses the tables down into empty space to make the page look fairly seamless.

Definitely worth keeping an eye on, though.

//Carbon

dialo · Dec 9, 2003, 01:12 PM

Firebird is not bad, and it's great that it gives more options than safari. I like downloading and web saving much better.

It certainly needs to take hints from safari getting a combined refresh/stop button and close buttons on tabs.

I also want spell check and full keyboard navigation.

I don't find it any slower than safari. It certainly [i]seems[i] slightly faster, but who knows?

As for Mozilla being crappy, on windows it is the only browser worth using. Firebird on Windows crashes all of the time for me, but Mozilla is the ****.

Krypton · Dec 9, 2003, 01:32 PM

For anyone actually using Firebird (and not bitching about nothing

) here is a handy tip:

You can access an XML file of all Firebird's preferences when you type 'about:config' in the location bar. Change any setting from false to true and vice versa.

Browser.always_reuse_window for example lets you set Firebird to open links in the last used tab.

wataru · Dec 9, 2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Krypton:
Browser.always_reuse_window for example lets you set Firebird to open links in the last used tab.

Thanks! That had been bugging me for a while.

Krypton · Dec 9, 2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by wataru:
Thanks! That had been bugging me for a while.

There are also prefs for turning fav icons off amongst other odds and ends.

The latest build(s) now have better support for choosing helper programs for downloads (i.e. select from open dialogue) but still no worky with .dmg