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Gohok! · 07:31 PM

Okay, be kind please, this is one of those questions posed by a switcher some months along on the blissful path of OS X who really has no idea how silly/obvious/good or what-have-you this question really is. I'm ignorance personified. Fine.

All I know is that I've no experience whatsoever with setting up databases (but will be heading in that direction soon, I can just see it coming). What I do know is that (over the past 2 weeks) I have witnessed several presentations of using MS Access to begin creating (simple) databases and was very impressed with the simplicity and power of what I saw. So much so in fact, that it was the first (and only) time since making the leap from XP to OS X that I've encountered a tinge of jealousy.

I have the Office X suite, I know MS Access is missing, I know Versiontracker, and I know the Mac development community kicks butt. But, I know not where to begin, what questions to ask, etc. So...that's what this forum is for, yes? What's the equivalent in the OS X universe, is it third party software, or built right into Panther, and under my nose?

As I said, I'm clueless and awaiting enlightenment. What gets your vote? Where to begin? Thanks!

parsec · Dec 8, 2003, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by Gohok!:
Okay, be kind please, this is one of those questions posed by a switcher some months along on the blissful path of OS X who really has no idea how silly/obvious/good or what-have-you this question really is. I'm ignorance personified. Fine.

All I know is that I've no experience whatsoever with setting up databases (but will be heading in that direction soon, I can just see it coming). What I do know is that (over the past 2 weeks) I have witnessed several presentations of using MS Access to begin creating (simple) databases and was very impressed with the simplicity and power of what I saw. So much so in fact, that it was the first (and only) time since making the leap from XP to OS X that I've encountered a tinge of jealousy.

I have the Office X suite, I know MS Access is missing, I know Versiontracker, and I know the Mac development community kicks butt. But, I know not where to begin, what questions to ask, etc. So...that's what this forum is for, yes? What's the equivalent in the OS X universe, is it third party software, or built right into Panther, and under my nose?

As I said, I'm clueless and awaiting enlightenment. What gets your vote? Where to begin? Thanks!

Haven't used it much myself, but I've heard that FileMaker Pro is probably the reason MS doesn't have access for macs.. filemaker is too entrenched.
Filemaker Pro is comparable to Access as far as I know. Other options are using hard core databases such as mysql or postgresql, which run on mac os x thanks to its unix foundation, but these lack the easy gui/form builder that makes access and filemaker pro so popular.

gorickey · Dec 8, 2003, 07:47 PM

Welcome "Gohok!" to the MacNN forums...

I believe FileMaker Pro would be what you want as well...

dtriska · Dec 8, 2003, 07:56 PM

As the others have said, FileMaker Pro is probably what you want. However, it currently doesn't have the same sort of data management Access has (GUI-wise). FileMaker Pro 7, which is said to be coming out early next year (aka a month or so from now), is rumoured to offer Access's style of table management.

si_lance · Dec 8, 2003, 10:39 PM

If this is going to be strictly a backend, then I recommend MySQL w/ CocoaMySQL to help with setting up tables with like Access. Otherwise, FileMaker will be the expensive answer.

Gohok! · Dec 8, 2003, 11:31 PM

Thanks for the welcome greeting gorickey! Got me feeling homey right quick.

And thanks to all the posters, seems to me like a consensus forming here. A couple of you brought up the the easy gui/form builder features, and yes, these are what had me enamored with the Access demos. And now, what with dtriska's foresight, looks like my timing is perfect as I keep up the research for options and fence sit a spell. That month'll be a short, worthwhile wait for ver. 7 perhaps.

As far as to a, "strictly a backend, then I recommend MySQL w/ CocoaMySQL to help with setting up tables with like Access" suggestion I'm clueless enough to take that as my next homework assignment.

Any other suggestions?

Gee4orce · Dec 9, 2003, 01:35 AM

If someone developed a GUI frontend builder for MySQL then that would tie up this market. I mean, something that allowed you to build forms a-la Access or Filemaker, but using a MySQL database in the background.

Hmmm. There's a neat idea for a shareware app !

theolein · Dec 9, 2003, 02:10 AM

theKompany recently GPL'ed the Rekall product, which many claim to be better than Access. It is a frontend to a number of databases and supports ODBC, as well as the usual crop of MySQL/Postgresql etc. At the moment you can get the KDE version whcih should run under X11 on the Mac with no problems.

I would however, advise you to get a good book on the SQL language and learn the concepts, even if you only learn the basics. Once you know those you should be fine with most databases.

P.S. Once you're up to speed in SQL, you could also try something like Database visualizer

booboo · Dec 9, 2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
If someone developed a GUI frontend builder for MySQL then that would tie up this market. I mean, something that allowed you to build forms a-la Access or Filemaker, but using a MySQL database in the background.

Hmmm. There's a neat idea for a shareware app !

They did! But not Shareware . . .

It's called Servoy

Check it out, Bo Selecta!

larkost · Dec 9, 2003, 09:18 AM

In the simple DataBase creation category, FileMaker is even better than Access, and cross platform (Mac, Windows, and even Linux as a Server). It is very easy to set-up simple databases and it is very forgiving for people who have never worked with databases before.

As you start to get more and more complicated you start to run into problems with FileMaker. I am working on a project at that edge right now. There are a number of procedural thing I want to do (WebObjects DT-JavaClient would be perfect.. but it is not a option in this project), and I am having to be very creative.

But if you were impressed by a Access GUI demo, then FileMaker will definitely more than meet your needs. I recommend it highly!

Diggory Laycock · Dec 9, 2003, 09:38 AM

http://www.mysql.com/downloads/mysql-4.0.html

and

http://cocoamysql.sourceforge.net/

Both Free.

GORDYmac · Dec 9, 2003, 09:48 AM

Whatever. Nothing on the Mac compares to Access. I love Macs and I have fought the good fight since 1991 (never owned a PC), and after using and developing on FileMaker & Access for most of that time I can honestly say that Access is far superior for small to medium sized workgroups.

The difference is that Access is self-contained. Multiple tables, queries, reports, code, and macros exist in one file. Additionally, various external tables can reside in Access databases alongside those created in Access. To do this in FileMaker you would have to create a database for each table.

So, in one Access database, you could have a sales report, an analysis report, a few charts, queries that build those reports, macros that build the queries, code that validates the data, and source data coming from Access tables, Oracle, SQL Server, Excel, and a flat file. Not to mentiion forms for data entry and review. This is no hypothetical, I'm looking at one now (at work, of course)!

While I like to support the Mac, I'd recommend Access via VPC before FileMaker, MySQL, or anything else. I work on projects at home using VPC with no problems. Microsoft bought a goldmine when they acquired Access.

typoon · Dec 9, 2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by GORDYmac:
Whatever. Nothing on the Mac compares to Access. I love Macs and I have fought the good fight since 1991 (never owned a PC), and after using and developing on FileMaker & Access for most of that time I can honestly say that Access is far superior for small to medium sized workgroups.

The difference is that Access is self-contained. Multiple tables, queries, reports, code, and macros exist in one file. Additionally, various external tables can reside in Access databases alongside those created in Access. To do this in FileMaker you would have to create a database for each table.

So, in one Access database, you could have a sales report, an analysis report, a few charts, queries that build those reports, macros that build the queries, code that validates the data, and source data coming from Access tables, Oracle, SQL Server, Excel, and a flat file. Not to mentiion forms for data entry and review. This is no hypothetical, I'm looking at one now (at work, of course)!

While I like to support the Mac, I'd recommend Access via VPC before FileMaker, MySQL, or anything else. I work on projects at home using VPC with no problems. Microsoft bought a goldmine when they acquired Access.

That is pretty interesting. I actually had a Microsoft guy and one MacWorld tell me the reason Access is NEVER coming to the Mac is because we have Filemaker and it is better than Access. Maybe he was just tell me what I wanted to hear but that is something odd coming from a MS guy even at a Mac show.

winwintoo · Dec 9, 2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by GORDYmac:
Whatever. Nothing on the Mac compares to Access. I love Macs and I have fought the good fight since 1991 (never owned a PC), and after using and developing on FileMaker & Access for most of that time I can honestly say that Access is far superior for small to medium sized workgroups.

The difference is that Access is self-contained. Multiple tables, queries, reports, code, and macros exist in one file. Additionally, various external tables can reside in Access databases alongside those created in Access. To do this in FileMaker you would have to create a database for each table.

So, in one Access database, you could have a sales report, an analysis report, a few charts, queries that build those reports, macros that build the queries, code that validates the data, and source data coming from Access tables, Oracle, SQL Server, Excel, and a flat file. Not to mentiion forms for data entry and review. This is no hypothetical, I'm looking at one now (at work, of course)!

While I like to support the Mac, I'd recommend Access via VPC before FileMaker, MySQL, or anything else. I work on projects at home using VPC with no problems. Microsoft bought a goldmine when they acquired Access.

I agree. I was spoiled by 4th Dimension when it was still in version 2 (1989) and later tried to use FileMakerPro and found it very limiting and frustrating because it didn't have a real scripting language.

I like the idea of using free (MySQL etc.) and PHP is fairly easy to learn for building the app.

I took a couple of Access courses and almost bought a PeeCee just so I could use it.

What are you running VPC on?? I have a 700 iBook G3 with maxed RAM.

m

GORDYmac · Dec 9, 2003, 11:33 AM

Well, Filemaker is a good database, great actually. But Access is more than a database. It is a Database Management System in that it supports multiple databases in one file in addition to the other stuff (forms, reporting, code, etc.). It has the ability to read from or write to the Oracle, Excel, and other files it links to. It manages them.

In my opinion, Access is not on the Mac because Apple would have a fit if Microsoft Visual Basic for Applications eclipsed AppleScript. Access relies on VBA for many functions. While VBA is on the Mac, it is limited to the Microsoft Office Suite. On a PC, Visual Basic is as pervasive as AppleScript is on the Mac.

I am running VPC on a QuickSilver 933.

theolein · Dec 9, 2003, 01:46 PM

Access is good for small databases. It's really good for small databases, and I prefer it to Filemaker and I don't think that VBA is the limiting factor, since the VBA runtime, as you said, is available on the Mac. The thing is that Access on the Mac would provide an opportunity for companies that use Access to drop PC's completely, and that is something that MS doesn't want.

Calling it a DBMS is giving it a bit too much credit though. There are many tools that can access different types of databases (I mentioned two above), but actual DBMSes need things like backup, replication etc, and that is where Access comes short unless you use it in conjunction with something like SQL server.

Another area that Access falls short is in Web applications as it can't handle multiple simultaneous queries very well, but this is not usually a problem for smaller sites that don't get much traffic.

ryaxnb · Dec 9, 2003, 04:30 PM

what about 4th dimension?

Gohok! · Dec 11, 2003, 09:55 PM

My hat is off to everyone who contributed to this thread. It has been far more rewarding than I thought it possibly could be. Thank you!

I have now checked out a couple of good texts from the library on SQL and will be going thru them over the holidays. Plus, I got another reason to fire up the VirtualPC ('cept now I'm gonna have to get my hands on Access after all) as well.

So again, your discussions were very interesting and I truly apprecitate the sharing.