[rotuts]

Hello
I had a threqad from a site that carefully explained all the 4 MPEGs but lost the ref.

is MPEG-2 the DVD standard? or the HDTV?

I can't get iMovie to make a QT movie in MPEG-2. is this correct?

Im trying to make some "DVD" quality QT files from my own imorted movies into iMovie to save wasting a DVD-R as I just want to save this on the HD.

iDVD does not seem to make DVD-RW's

any ideas?
\
thanks rotut

[spiky_dog]

mpeg2 is used in dvd video streams, yes. you can view mpeg2 streams with the apple qt component: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/mpeg2playback/ . however you cannot create mpeg2 content even with it. i would suggest using sorenson 3 or mpeg 4 at a very high bitrate if you wish to simply create high quality videos that will live on your own hard drive.

[rytc]

For high-quality video try using the 3ivx divx plugin, you can export your videos using QT Pro in this format and it results in very small, v. high resolution video files. And what's more they are free. MPEG-2 takes up a lot more space.

www.3ivx.com

[dtriska]

Originally posted by rytc:
For high-quality video try using the 3ivx divx plugin, you can export your videos using QT Pro in this format and it results in very small, v. high resolution video files. And what's more they are free. MPEG-2 takes up a lot more space.

www.3ivx.com

3ivx is not a DivX plug-in.

They are both implementations of MPEG-4.

rotuts, you should use 3ivx. It produces extremely high-quality files that are also readable by any player that reads MPEG-4. No plug-in is required.

[philm]

Originally posted by dtriska:
3ivx is not a DivX plug-in.

They are both implementations of MPEG-4.

rotuts, you should use 3ivx. It produces extremely high-quality files that are also readable by any player that reads MPEG-4. No plug-in is required.

Does Windows Media Player understand MPEG-4 files without the need for installing extra codecs/plugins etc?

[rytc]

Originally posted by philm:
Does Windows Media Player understand MPEG-4 files without the need for installing extra codecs/plugins etc?

No, no OS understands any divx variant without a plugin. Yes I know 3ivx isn't divx per se but they are all implementations along a similar theme. And if we are going to split hairs they are not technically implementations of MPEG-4 either, there is only one official MPEG-4 and divx/3ivx etc have nothing to do with it. The use of MPEG-4 came around because of incorrect use of the term and continued use just clouds the whole issue.

[Jacke]

Originally posted by rytc:
No, no OS understands any divx variant without a plugin. Yes I know 3ivx isn't divx per se but they are all implementations along a similar theme. And if we are going to split hairs they are not technically implementations of MPEG-4 either, there is only one official MPEG-4 and divx/3ivx etc have nothing to do with it. The use of MPEG-4 came around because of incorrect use of the term and continued use just clouds the whole issue.

3ivx produces completely compatible MPEG-4 video AFAIK. MPEG-4 video compressed with the latest 3ivx using no ASP features plays back in Quicktime without needing the 3ivx component.

[rytc]

Originally posted by Jacke:
3ivx produces completely compatible MPEG-4 video AFAIK. MPEG-4 video compressed with the latest 3ivx using no ASP features plays back in Quicktime without needing the 3ivx component.

Okay, well maybe I am mistaken about 3ivx's role. However, it is my understanding that divX was originally based on an early video codec that Microsoft released (or didn't release) that they incorrectly called mpeg-4, the use of this term was never sanctioned by the Motion Pictures expert group, however, the term continued to be used. MPEG-4 was later decided to be based on Quicktime and Apple's MPEG-4 is the official one. DivX is and continues to be a unrelated project that unfortunately also gets called MPEG-4.

I was under the impression that 3ivx was also related to the divX codec, however, I'm obviously mistaken based on what you say.


Cheers Ry

[rytc]

Originally posted by Jacke:
3ivx produces completely compatible MPEG-4 video AFAIK. MPEG-4 video compressed with the latest 3ivx using no ASP features plays back in Quicktime without needing the 3ivx component.

From the 3ivx site:
3ivx D4 4.5 encoded video is completely compatible with the Apple MPEG-4 Decoder built into and shipped with every copy of QuickTime 6.

Sorry about that, you were correct
The plugin therefore must be purely for video encoding, rather than being needed for playback. I did encounter one occassion when I needed to install the codec on an XP machine for video playbak to occur - odd seeing as it wasn't a video I had encoded rather it was a film that I had edited some segments out of and then resaved as a .mov.

[Uncle Skeleton]

The Short Answer:

FIrst of all, a video file has a compressor specified to handle the data, and a file format specification to handle IO of the data. The two are independant (though some file formats demand a certain sub-set of compressors be used). DivX, Xvid and 3ivx are all codecs, and all are MPEG-4 compliant to a large degree; 3ivx is just the most compliant, even more than 100% in a way since it works around the bugs of the other two when decoding them. These codecs which produce MPEG-4 video can be used with any file format, and still be an MPEG-4 compliant bitstream. AVI, MOV and MP4 are file formats. AVI sucks ass, MOV is insanely great, and MP4 is a highly dumbed-down version of MOV with a different name. An MPEG-4 bitstream contained in an MP4 file is what most people mean when they say MPEG-4. I know, it's confusing because the names for the bitstream and for the file format are the same.

The Long Answer:

Originally posted by rytc:
it is my understanding that divX was originally based on an early video codec that Microsoft released (or didn't release) that they incorrectly called mpeg-4, the use of this term was never sanctioned by the Motion Pictures expert group, however, the term continued to be used. MPEG-4 was later decided to be based on Quicktime and Apple's MPEG-4 is the official one. DivX is and continues to be a unrelated project that unfortunately also gets called MPEG-4.

You're confusing the MPEG-4 codec specification with the MPEG-4 file format. Here's how it is...

DivX was originally based on a (actually several) version(s) of MS's codec (MS-MPEG4v1, 2 and 3) used in ASF files, which was (were) based on the then-current pre-specification for the MPEG-4 codec. All DivX was really, was to put those codecs in AVI files instead of the MS-supported ASF files. That was "DivX 3.11a ;-)" (the smilie is part of the name, apparently).

DivX 4 (and above) was a complete re-write, based on the open-source OpenDivX project (as was XviD), and it is now un-connected with either MS or the open source community. These projects all were written with true MPEG-4 codec compatibility as a goal (by this point MPEG-4 specs had been officially finallized), but their implementations are not as compliant as 3ivx. XviD's programmers mostly prefer cutting-edge technology and buzzwords over compliance, and DivX's devs would actually prefer not to be compatible with their competitor's products (MPEG-4 compliance was one of the selling points of Divx 5, but now that they have actually sold many hardware manufacturers on DivX, MPEG-4 compatibility has mysteriously receded in DXN's marketing speak (unfortunately I can't double-check that now, because divx.com has mysteriously refused to load at all on my connection here for several months)).

The file format of choice for these two is unfortunately still the mutilated step-child of avi (which is no gem to start with, hence why it must be mutilated to be useful) that was originally used for DivX 3 to put mp3 audio in (now of course there are also other audio codecs commonly used with the same hack to the container format). The MP4 container format was based on the QuickTime mov format (unfortunately with most of the cool features removed).

3ivx was always an unrelated project (you can think of them as competitors, but it's not really accurate since they have different target audiences), unless you count the fact that the guys who write it once upon a time wrote the only DivX player for Mac OS. More:

The plugin therefore must be purely for video encoding, rather than being needed for playback.

Nope, as a codec, 3ivx ably handles both COmpression and DECompression. 3ivx's business model relies on total MPEG-4 compliance for both encoding and decoding, but since the world is not perfect, the decoder also includes work-arounds specifically for the bugs of encodings from the other popular MPEG-4 encoders out there. It's also worth noting that 3ivx decodes the bitstreams of DivX and XviD much faster than either DivX or XviD decoders (leaving more cpu time for post-processing the decoded images).

And if we are going to split hairs they are not technically implementations of MPEG-4 either, there is only one official MPEG-4 and divx/3ivx etc have nothing to do with it.

It might interest you to know that the official MPEG-4 spec is nothing more than a document describing what a compliant bitstream consists of. It provides nothing in the way of implementing any code that might create or decode such a bitstream, and it has nothing to do with Apple's implementation of a codec that produces such a bitstream (since that's the only thing I can imagine you are referring to). Consider the mp3 format. Mp3's created by iTunes are just as valid as those created by LAME or Xing or any other algorithm. The mp3 spec is not attached to any of them, it just describes what is (and by implication, what is not) an mp3 file.



And now that this thread has been so thoroughly derailed...yes, MPEG-2 is the codec of both DVD and HDTV (though not HD-DVD), and yes, encoding it on a Mac is a PITA and probably not worth the trouble based on what you (the original poster) have said. Perhaps if you elaborate on your final goal, you will get more useful advice.

[philm]

Given all that, is it possible to export a file format/codec from Quicktime Pro which will be playable by both Macs and Windows PCs without extra installations/plug-ins? I guess the QT AVI would work, but I am hoping for something which is better quality.

[Uncle Skeleton]

the only thing that is sure to play on all machines out-of-the-box, as they say, is MPEG-1, and the only way to export that directly from QTPro or iMovie is with Toast 5 (Toast 5 doesn't work in 10.3, but I bet the MPEG export plugin does. Unfortunately, the installer for Toast 6 deletes the plugin. Also the plugin only makes VCD compliant (CBR among other things) files, so if you want larger or smaller you're out of luck).

Given that, many machines have QT installed, and many of those have QT6. 3ivx is the best codec by far that can play with only QT6 installed.

[rotuts]

thanks for this discussion

dtrisky, Uncle Skelton and others:

Ive finally gotten around to trying the 3 ivx plug in you suggested

its great but I have a few questions:

Im using the dual pass method, and have to do each stage at night as my dual 1gz will not handle doing this and running thealchemyDVR card at the same time.

what are the "best" settings for dual pass for the best video quality?

and Ive noticed that after the first pass it creates a small file QT. if I have to quit the QT pro program and do the second pass the next night, do I open the new small file and then say do the second pass or the original file that the first pass came from?

again thanks for solving my problem.

maybe when I get a dual G5 in Jan I can do BOTH the alchemy DVR and 3ivx at the same time!!!!

rotut

[Uncle Skeleton]

Firstly, I suggest you visit the excellent 3ivx support forums and read some of the body of previous discussions. Incidentally, I am a moderator there with no particular moderator super powers other than the blue name. See if you can guess which one!

Secondly, you don't really want to use 2-pass. A lot of people think they want 2-pass just because 2 is better than 1. But read this very carefully, twice if you have to: the absolutely only single reason you ever need 2-pass is to hit a precise target bitrate, for example if you want to squeeze a given movie onto a CD/DVD/zip disk without wasting any space. If you don't have an exact precise bitrate to shoot for, you're better off using Average Bitrate (1-pass). And if you don't have any particular bitrate to shoot for, you're better off using Constant Quality. Personally for my TV rips, I've settled on QP 5 (labelled 85% in 3ivx) as the best compromise between compression and quality, and sometimes I go to QP 4 if I really like that show. Anyway, I know it goes against everyone's nerd instincts, but fiddling with all the options and using every available feature often just reduces the quality of your output.

Thirdly, if you really do want to use 2-pass, then no, you just ignore the small dummy file outputted during the first pass. 1. Open your source movie. 2. Export to 3ivx with First Pass selected. 2.5 You can even throw away the all-black output movie if you want. The 2-pass log is stored somewhere else. 3. Open your source movie again (or don't if it's still open from the first time), and export again, with Second Pass selected.

Finally, I have the same machine as you, a dual 1 ghz quicksilver with the Televio TV card (which was later bought by Miglia and rebranded as AlchemyTV). I certainly wouldn't capture while encoding in the background, but you can play live TV with the card while doing anything you like in the background. Also I don't know if you've discovered the joys of deinterlacing, but if not you will get a lot higher quality once you do.

[rotuts]

Thanks U.S. Ive signed up for the 3ivx forum.

now is there a place where I can lean more about what I can and cannot do while my AlchemyTV card is recording?

Ive found the free utility Batch Export Utility very helpfull in making a secod compression from my alchemyTV output. However Ive learned by trial and error that the QT movies have to have the time slider all the way to the left for this program not to copy the same file over and oever again

I start with Sorensen3 from Alchemy, in 320 x 240. I get about 2GB/30 min

then I take all them files from the day and use BEU to make a mp4 best quality same size that ends up about 180mb/30 min

this is fine for my curreent projects which are mostly PBS and FoodTV cooking shows ( a hobby).

I hadn't learned about 3ivx. I may save that for my own movies that will not go on DVD

also where can a learn more about deinterlacing? I go to DVDHelp forums mac regurlarly to learn about DVD etc.

thanks rotut

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by rotuts:
now is there a place where I can lean more about what I can and cannot do while my AlchemyTV card is recording?

Just think about it. The card is going to be writing to your hard drive and using one of your CPU's to compress the video (and another to scale it down in your case). If you interupt one of those processes by using too much of one of those resources, you'll get dropped frames. Of course, if you're not recording, just watchin, you don't care if you get dropped frames.

Ive found the free utility Batch Export Utility very helpfull in making a secod compression from my alchemyTV output. However Ive learned by trial and error that the QT movies have to have the time slider all the way to the left for this program not to copy the same file over and oever again

That sounds like a bug the author of that program will want to know about.

I start with Sorensen3 from Alchemy, in 320 x 240. I get about 2GB/30 min

then I take all them files from the day and use BEU to make a mp4 best quality same size that ends up about 180mb/30 min

Why don't you just encode to mpeg-4 in the first place?

also where can a learn more about deinterlacing? I go to DVDHelp forums mac regurlarly to learn about DVD etc.

http://www.100fps.com/
http://neuron2.net/LVG/interlacing.html
http://home.planet.nl/~jeschot/

I use Cleaner for deinterlacing, but since you're just scaling down anyway you can capture in a codec that supports true interlacing like DV, then set the Single Field flag in QTPro's "Hight Quality" section of movie properties before encoding (but that will mean you need about 3x the hard drive space for your initial capture. A lot of times if you are scaling down to exactly half height (which I didn't realize was what you were doing), you won't get a lot of trouble from interlacing.

[rotuts]

Thanks UC!

I watch the CPU meter to learn what I can doand can't do while Alchemy is working, as you have suggested.

to answer some of you Q's, Ive emailed the BEU people and have had a good exvhange withthem

they can't figue out the probl3ems,and as its a free Ut. im not sure how much effort they can put into it. for about 6 wqeeks its been working fine, then wooudlnt. Ive learned to "force" it to "start" several times by clicking o n the start, then after that when it says its done, having done nothing, ifI click the 'settings' it then lets me st them.

sorry bad typing major thumb injuty yest.

with Alchemy first pass to mp4 is a much worse vidoe portion even in 320 x 240 than Sorensen3

Ive tried 3ivix, but with the cooking project I wonder what will happen in thefuture with the files if 3ivx 'disappears'

Ill keep my home movies tapes.

will look into your other links and am trying now the single passwith 3ivx

youve been a great help.

rotut

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by rotuts:

Ive tried 3ivix, but with the cooking project I wonder what will happen in thefuture with the files if 3ivx 'disappears'

You needn't worry about that. Even if 3ivx does disappear, it is fully MPEG-4 compliant which means it can be decoded by any MPEG-4 decoder. You can even see for yourself: uninstall 3ivx and watch QT6's MPEG-4 codec play your 3ivx movies (they will still say "3ivx" in the info window because that string is written to the file. You can export your 3ivx mov files to mp4 files with the passthrough option, then play them in QT6 without 3ivx installed and they won't mention anything about 3ivx; they'll just look a lot better than movies encoded with Apple's codec).

[rotuts]

Geart News UC!

Ill try it today with batch and todays cooking

thanks a lot for the time and advice.

rotuts