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loren s · Jan 24, 2005, 09:24 AM

I would like to ask anyone that bought Apples early dev adopter what kind of help files and source materials come with the package. I am looking to try it out but want to know if they give any helpful code source and or manuals for the new libraries.

Angus_D · Jan 24, 2005, 11:48 AM

Details of the Tiger seeds are under non-disclosure, early adopters can't talk about them

IamBob · Jan 24, 2005, 01:41 PM

Even NDA'd people could answer this one. Just link to the ad on Apple's site and say, "yeah, it has what you need as far as sample code and documentation go"...no harm in that.

Person Man · Jan 25, 2005, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Details of the Tiger seeds are under non-disclosure, early adopters can't talk about them

Isn't that a little heavy handed response to his question? All he asked was if the developer seed of Tiger contained documentation on how to program for the new operating system.

The answer is most likely yes. How are you going to program for a pre-release operating system if you don't have documentation on how it works?

Understand that when people break their NDA and distribute the pre-release software online, that they don't distribute the documentation, known bugs lists, etc... because that's not what they're interested in. They just "wanna run the latest and greatest." Sign up for the developer programs, sign your NDA, and you get access to the software AND the notes you need to be able to develop for it properly.

chadseld · Jan 25, 2005, 08:24 PM

It comes with all the info you need to get your application ready for Tiger. It is for developers, and Tiger is still under development. Don't spend your money on it if you just want to play with Tiger. If you are a programmer and want to make sure your app doesn't break with 10.4, or you want to get a jump start integrating the new API's into your app then this is for you.

Angus_D · Jan 26, 2005, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Person Man:
The answer is most likely yes. How are you going to program for a pre-release operating system if you don't have documentation on how it works?

It's a valid question, detailed technical documentation often takes a while to be produced. I mean, we didn't even have proper conceptual documentation for Cocoa until about the Jaguar timeframe.

Having said that, it's in Apple's best interests to encourage the adoption of new technologies and obviously it makes sense for them to provide as much help as they can. The biggest problem with trying to adopt new technologies in pre-release seeds is, IMO, the fact that you can't talk to other people about it. If Apple would just create a mailing list for people with seed access, then this would be greatly alleviated.

loren s · Jan 26, 2005, 12:03 PM

What ! You mean to tell me even with this package there is no way to talk to other developers that own this kit that want to work in Tiger ?? That is just stupid, how does one learn then? Self teaching? That can only go so far, then you MUST turn to the mailing lists for stuff you just cant understand yet....

Docs that is what I was hopeing was with the package, docs that detail Core image and the other new bits like Webkit 2.0 and pdf kit. But I heard from the grapevine that coreimage still lacks proper docs for it's APIs ..

But if it does not have this then I will just wait for the release,, maybe then

A small question, if it breaks NDA then forget it. The Quartz Debug with it's resolution independent test tool, does it slow the system down ? From what I saw on the videos and heard from others is that it makes the screen really small, which is a boon for ibook users and weak dpi levels.. And is it in Real time or a reboot to activate thing?"

Person Man · Jan 26, 2005, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by loren s:
What ! You mean to tell me even with this package there is no way to talk to other developers that own this kit that want to work in Tiger ?? That is just stupid, how does one learn then? Self teaching? That can only go so far, then you MUST turn to the mailing lists for stuff you just cant understand yet....

Docs that is what I was hopeing was with the package, docs that detail Core image and the other new bits like Webkit 2.0 and pdf kit. But I heard from the grapevine that coreimage still lacks proper docs for it's APIs ..

Well, (I don't have Tiger because I'm not a developer with a seed key) prerelease operating systems will also generally have prerelease documentation that changes as the system changes throughout development.

You can talk to other developers who own the kit, and are under the same NDA. The issue is not that. The issue is that there is no way to find out if someone else is under NDA or not. Apple has a problem with developers even admitting that they have Tiger (technically a violation of the NDA). So, if it's a violation of your NDA to say that you are under NDA, you are basically cut off from everyone else who is under the NDA, because to admit that you're under NDA in a public forum is also admitting it to people who are not under the NDA.

If Apple provided forums for the developers under NDA, this wouldn't be an issue, because everyone there would be under NDA and they would know that everyone else is, and so can speak freely.

Clear as mud, right??

Angus_D · Jan 26, 2005, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Person Man:
You can talk to other developers who own the kit, and are under the same NDA.

No, you can't. Not unless they're employees or contractors of the same entity as you.

Person Man · Jan 26, 2005, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
No, you can't. Not unless they're employees or contractors of the same entity as you.

What purpose does THAT serve???

Two developers from separate companies have Tiger. They signed the same NDA and therefore have access to the same "trade secrets." Explain how Apple is harmed by those two developers talking to each other about Tiger.

Well, I guess that explains the fact that there's no mailing list, then.

loren s · Jan 26, 2005, 10:36 PM

guh?

Egh... I dont even want to know then how anyone can bother to use the tools then. It sounds like they are just wrapping the developer in a box with holes for the feet to move in and a map but they cant see the street .....

Well that sucks, cause I would need to ask lots of questions to get anything to work. Sigh, I shall wait then till march or whenever forrelease of Tigs..

Angus_D · Jan 27, 2005, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Person Man:

What purpose does THAT serve???

Two developers from separate companies have Tiger. They signed the same NDA and therefore have access to the same "trade secrets." Explain how Apple is harmed by those two developers talking to each other about Tiger.

Well, I guess that explains the fact that there's no mailing list, then.

Yeah, it's ridiculous - you think that at WWDC two people sitting next to each other aren't going to chat to each other about the session they've just seen?

But nonetheless that's what the NDA says.

Person Man · Jan 27, 2005, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Yeah, it's ridiculous - you think that at WWDC two people sitting next to each other aren't going to chat to each other about the session they've just seen?

But nonetheless that's what the NDA says.

LOL!

I just had an image of Apple requiring people to go to WWDC, one developer (or company of developers) at a time, going individually to individual undisclosed locations, being blindfolded and driven to the conference center, where they are then placed in isolated cubicles for each session.

EDIT: Yes, I know that "individually to individual unsdisclosed locations" is gramatically redundant and/or awkward.

wadesworld · Jan 27, 2005, 09:37 PM

It's just legal protection for Apple guys. Nobody's going to jump out from behind the potted plant if they hear you discussing Tiger.

What they DON'T want you doing is discussing Tiger on public mailing lists or forums.

Wade