Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

BKMaggert · Mar 17, 2005, 05:50 PM

What did they really fix in 28 megs worth of update?

Line spacing is still wrong on imported AppleWorks and Word documents (It adds 2 pts to the line spacing), also

Tabs still only work when margin wrap is set to 'ragged right'. Since we use 'flush both sides' margins at our office for our documents, ALL our documents have to be reformatted when tabs are used. In AppleWorks, tabs worked in all margin formats.

The only two fixes we really needed were ignored.

Kenneth · Mar 17, 2005, 06:17 PM

Well.. both apps launched faster now.

CaptainHaddock · Mar 17, 2005, 07:32 PM

Pages is a version-one product; that's no excuse for bugs, of course, but it does explain the lack of sophistication with some features. That said, it's a remarkably good idea and an eminently usable product. It simultaneously fulfills most word processing needs while filling the affordable desktop-publishing niche that Pagemaker once held.

Apple is, without doubt, aware that users will hit many limitations. They have a handy menu option for submitting feedback. I'm keeping a list of all my requests and bug reports, and I'll submit them to Apple after I've used Pages for a few weeks.

It would be nice if Apple released a 1.5 version as a free upgrade in a few months. Barring that, I'm sure 2.0 will bring many improvements.

Buck_W · Mar 17, 2005, 10:48 PM

It's not showing up in Software Update for me. . . Go figure

Krusty · Mar 18, 2005, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Buck_W:
It's not showing up in Software Update for me. . . Go figure

According to other threads, its only showing up if you have it in the "right" place, which is to say in /Applications/iWork .... if you've put it anywhere else, try putting it back there and running SU. Afterwards, put it back where you normally keep it.

I, for one, am NOT a fan of Apple's recent trend toward making you keep certain apps in certain locations. Being forced to arrange your machine in a certain way is so ... its so .... Windows (blech)

Buck_W · Mar 18, 2005, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Krusty:
According to other threads, its only showing up if you have it in the "right" place, which is to say in /Applications/iWork .... if you've put it anywhere else, try putting it back there and running SU. Afterwards, put it back where you normally keep it.

I, for one, am NOT a fan of Apple's recent trend toward making you keep certain apps in certain locations. Being forced to arrange your machine in a certain way is so ... its so .... Windows (blech)

That's ridiculous! I prefer to have my applications in my Applications folder, not tucked away in subfolders. But you were right, I created another iWork folder and drug Pages and Keynote into it (in the Application folder) and presto!, Software Update recognized it. I had heard that you needed to keep your applications in the Application folder... fine, I can live with that... but not having the freedom to pull them out of a folder???

Bush league all the way (or as you have so eloquently put it: "...it's so ... Windows..."

ManOfSteal · Mar 18, 2005, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Buck_W:
That's ridiculous! I prefer to have my applications in my Applications folder, not tucked away in subfolders. But you were right, I created another iWork folder and drug Pages and Keynote into it (in the Application folder) and presto!, Software Update recognized it. I had heard that you needed to keep your applications in the Application folder... fine, I can live with that... but not having the freedom to pull them out of a folder???

Bush league all the way (or as you have so eloquently put it: "...it's so ... Windows..."

Amen.

mdc · Mar 18, 2005, 11:07 AM

no wonder it was not showing up in my software update.

kinda stinks. one of the coolest things about mac os that i love is the fact that an app is a package, not a folder full of thousands of files, and thus your applications folder can be subfolderless.

oh well, i'll move them back when they are finished updating.

Randman · Mar 18, 2005, 11:13 AM

Ah, that explains it. Oh well, as soon as its done updating, I'll just rename the folder I have it back to what I want.

That is silly though. I can understand how receipts work but that's a little too extreme. Feedback time and off I go.

Krusty · Mar 18, 2005, 11:27 AM

I had a similar problem with the 10.3.8 update. Several apps (Stickies, Calculator, Font Book ... and more) were mucked up by that update such that I had to pull them out of the /Applications/Read N' Write/ folder that I keep them and put them in the root of /Applications for them to update properly.

Seriously, if AppleScript can find any application on your hard drive simply by calling its name without any location specifiers, you KNOW that this ability is accessible to Apple for its software updates. At the very least, they could present a dialog saying something like "Software Update has found an updateable copy of <appname> in <foldername>, would you like to update this copy ?"

TETENAL · Mar 18, 2005, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Krusty:
Seriously, if AppleScript can find any application on your hard drive simply by calling its name without any location specifiers, you KNOW that this ability is accessible to Apple for its software updates.

According to CharlesS the installer supports finding applications even when the have been moved. This feature must be turned on when you create the installer package; it's not on by default. As far as I know Apple never uses this feature in its own updates.

mishakim · Mar 18, 2005, 05:43 PM

it seems like Apple does this for every app, then eventually fixes it, e.g. Mail no longer fails to update if you've moved it, but it had issues in earlier versions of the OS. Probably a lack of discipline or control, each app team configuring their own installer without checking with whoever it is that knows that they're doing. That's actually not very apple-like, but exactly what I'd expect from other large companies.

Mediaman_12 · Mar 18, 2005, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by mishakim:
it seems like Apple does this for every app, then eventually fixes it, e.g. Mail no longer fails to update if you've moved it, but it had issues in earlier versions of the OS. Probably a lack of discipline or control, each app team configuring their own installer without checking with whoever it is that knows that they're doing. That's actually not very apple-like, but exactly what I'd expect from other large companies.

The pages update seams to have made it MORE anal about it's location.
After creating a folder in Applications called iWork and moving Pages in to it, so the updater would see the update, then updating it. I then tried to move the Pages app back to it's older location (Applications/Text & Office), but instead of moving the app it started copying it? I found that I could move the iWork folder, but to get Pages out of it would require it to be copied then the original deleted?
Apple REALLY wants the iWork apps in there iWork folder

Fritzi · Mar 19, 2005, 02:26 AM

The update fixed the serious Word export flaw where table-lines with zero width made Word for Windows crash.
Now I can finally swap documents back and forth!

mdc · Mar 19, 2005, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
The pages update seams to have made it MORE anal about it's location.
After creating a folder in Applications called iWork and moving Pages in to it, so the updater would see the update, then updating it. I then tried to move the Pages app back to it's older location (Applications/Text & Office), but instead of moving the app it started copying it? I found that I could move the iWork folder, but to get Pages out of it would require it to be copied then the original deleted?
Apple REALLY wants the iWork apps in there iWork folder

i noticed this too. a regular drag and drop (move) had the green (+) copy icon on it. so i held down option (or something like that), to force it to move it, and then it asked for my password. only after entering my password did it move it.

strange stuff.

HOMBRESINIESTRO · Mar 19, 2005, 10:22 AM

Do you know an URL to a stand alone installer for the updates?

nickm · Mar 19, 2005, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
According to CharlesS the installer supports finding applications even when the have been moved. This feature must be turned on when you create the installer package; it's not on by default. As far as I know Apple never uses this feature in its own updates.

That's only partly right. It is true that Software Update is capable of finding apps that have moved. It's not true that Apple doesn't use this feature: they use it for all the apps that come with Mac OS X. It's only the Apple apps that are sold separately (iLife, iWork) that don't get updated when you move them. I actually had a conversation with an Apple employee who works with Software Update and he said this was actually a restriction imposed by marketing

yellowdog · Mar 20, 2005, 04:09 PM

The question for me is why do we now have to deal with a new document storage method. Bundles works nicely if all I am doing is saving for myself, but otherwise I have to keep a duplicate word export file for exchanges. Open Office is working hard for inter-operability between the Linux and Windows world, and now I have a pile of Mac-only stuff to deal with. I am not sure what the secret apple plan is underlying this approach for an OS that commands 3% of the market.

TheIceMan · Apr 21, 2005, 04:02 AM

I've been using Pages for the past few weeks now and LOVe it. I do have a few questions which I can't seem to find in the Pages User guide.

(1) How do I create check box? Like the ones in MS Word so that clicking on it will add an "x" inside the box.

(2) How do I set the Pages to "Show Rulers" by default everytime I open a Pages document or create a new one?

(3) Finally, when creating tables, how can I set the justification (not aligning it left, right or center) so that when I tab I'll end up at the exact spot on each line? Sorry if I'm not explaining it well. Here's a pic. See how the bullets on the right side don't line up? I'm going nuts trying to get them to line up inside tables.

Judge_Fire · Apr 21, 2005, 12:04 PM

http://www.apple.com/feedback/pages.html

J

mitchell_pgh · Apr 21, 2005, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Buck_W

Bush league all the way (or as you have so eloquently put it: "...it's so ... Windows..."

Applications in the Applications folder = OK
Applications being forced in a subfolder of the Applications folder = Poor implementation

mitchell_pgh · Apr 21, 2005, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by yellowdog

The question for me is why do we now have to deal with a new document storage method. Bundles works nicely if all I am doing is saving for myself, but otherwise I have to keep a duplicate word export file for exchanges. Open Office is working hard for inter-operability between the Linux and Windows world, and now I have a pile of Mac-only stuff to deal with. I am not sure what the secret apple plan is underlying this approach for an OS that commands 3% of the market.

Pages isn't a replacement for Word. It's a cross between Word and InDesign/QuarkXPress, but for joe newsletter.

CaptainHaddock · Apr 21, 2005, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by yellowdog

The question for me is why do we now have to deal with a new document storage method. Bundles works nicely if all I am doing is saving for myself, but otherwise I have to keep a duplicate word export file for exchanges. Open Office is working hard for inter-operability between the Linux and Windows world, and now I have a pile of Mac-only stuff to deal with. I am not sure what the secret apple plan is underlying this approach for an OS that commands 3% of the market.

A few things about bundles:

1. Bundles really are a superior way of packaging a document that contains images and other media. For one thing, you can update elements without even opening Pages. It also makes it easy to confirm that all your images are embedded and ready for printing if you're submitting the file to a print bureau. InDesign tried doing this with their "package" menu option, but it doesn't work as well. Microsoft's .doc format is just a hack.

2. Macs might be 3% of the computer market, but they are 30-50% of the design market. I prefer a Mac-only solution that works well to a cross-platform solution that works okay.

3. Even if you do have to output other forms (doc or pdf) to collaborate with other people, the bundle is still the best way to store your master document.

4. Linux and OpenOffice developers could easily add support for Pages' bundles if it becomes popular enough.