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loren s · Jun 15, 2006, 08:50 PM

Will we ever have a native pdf editing tool as simple as preview app ??

What is the point of pdfs ??? You send them to clients and they say Oh make this text change here.. How do I do it ?? I say well you have to go buy a over priced piece of junk called Acro....pro

They say No.... Oh hey theres a word doc again ! .. Yawn...

Why is this kind of tool still missing in basic stuff ???

production_coordinator · Jun 15, 2006, 09:58 PM

If they don't understand the advantage of Acrobat (not the viewer) you have done a poor job of explaining what it does. Also, Acrobat won't fix everything... it's usually OK for a little copy fix, but NOT much else.

Word is NOT a design program. It's a Wordprocessor.

Originally Posted by loren s

Why is this kind of tool still missing in basic stuff ???

Because it's not basic.

loren s · Jun 15, 2006, 10:07 PM

Err that new word sure is ready to be a design program
Pages sure is...

I mean even just simple text editing ....

wataru · Jun 15, 2006, 11:25 PM

You're using the wrong tool. If it's not a final document, don't send them PDFs.

Chuckit · Jun 15, 2006, 11:43 PM

Change it in the original and send them a new PDF?

siMac · Jun 16, 2006, 06:37 AM

A PDF is like a printout. You don't change copy on printouts do you? No, you change it in the original file then make a new printout. KISS.

loren s · Jun 16, 2006, 07:04 AM

errr have you ever seen a legal document ??
A script? Hell anything.. Anything is editable and nothing is final

I wont use examples past that.. It's a basic User interface thing. You can select the text sooo why not change it as well ??

There is no use for pdfs.. But people still send them to me and every one in my team...

SpaceMonkey · Jun 16, 2006, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by loren s

errr have you ever seen a legal document ??
A script? Hell anything.. Anything is editable and nothing is final

I wont use examples past that.. It's a basic User interface thing. You can select the text sooo why not change it as well ??

There is no use for pdfs.. But people still send them to me and every one in my team...

So demand Word documents?

loren s · Jun 16, 2006, 07:44 AM

Well my basic question is why do we not have native editing ?? Even if it's just text ??
I know pdfs can be locked and thats apart of their charm I guess .. But if it's such an open standard why limit them from such basic use as replacement to word docs and rtf txt *insert format here* ???

Font stealling ??

TETENAL · Jun 16, 2006, 07:57 AM

PDF is a format intended for printing, not for a text editor. You should see it as the electronic representation of a printed paper page. On a printed page you can not make any major changes to the text either. You can use some correction fluid and change a spelling error here and there (and that is what Acrobat can do) and you can scribble some annotations onto the paper (Acrobat and Preview can do this). But you can not make major changes to a printed page. If you make larger changes you need to print out the page again. It's the same with PDF. If you need to make changes, you need to make them in the original application that created the document and re-export as PDF again. This is the way that PDF was designed to be.

loren s · Jun 16, 2006, 08:07 AM

but why give us the option of even selecting text ??

It's a user UI No No.. it defeats it's self as a user interactivity tool if I can select text Scale sure but select no..

Big Mac · Jun 16, 2006, 08:12 AM

You can select and copy text in most PDFs.

siMac · Jun 16, 2006, 08:22 AM

Am I on your ignore list? Maybe you didn't hear me...

A PDF IS LIKE A PRINTOUT! YOU DON'T CHANGE COPY ON PRINTOUTS DO YOU? NO, YOU CHANGE IT IN THE ORIGINAL FILE THEN MAKE A NEW PRINTOUT!

It's a fairly straightforward metaphor. PDF is not a document creation or editing platform. It is electronic paper. If you are collaborating on projects with other people then maybe you should be sharing the source files.

siMac · Jun 16, 2006, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by loren s

What is the point of pdfs ??? You send them to clients and they say Oh make this text change here..

That is exactly the point of PDFs! Can you email a hardcopy? No.

Originally Posted by loren s

Well my basic question is why do we not have native editing ?? Even if it's just text ??
I know pdfs can be locked and thats apart of their charm I guess .. But if it's such an open standard why limit them from such basic use as replacement to word docs and rtf txt *insert format here* ???

Oh my Flying Spaghetti Monster, you really don't get it do you? PDFs are not replacements for Word documents (that's what ODT is for

), they are replacements for hard copy proofs/paper.

loren s · Jun 16, 2006, 08:51 AM

alright alright... A pdf is a final document, i get it..

saddino · Jun 16, 2006, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by loren s

alright alright... A pdf is a final document, i get it..

Then again, if you REALLY have to edit it, you can always try to convert it to RTF with something like this. It's not perfect (PDF to text translation is hit or miss) and doesn't work with every PDF, but when it works, it's a life saver.

Tsilou B. · Jun 16, 2006, 11:54 AM

FWIW, the latest version (12) of the word processor Papyrus (available for Windows and Mac) can output special "hybrid" PDF files that can be viewed with any PDF viewer, but can still be edited with Papyrus.

However, they've implemented this by embedding the original Papyrus file inside the PDF file - that means you can only edit PDF files if you created them with Papyrus.

Chuckit · 01:03 PM

Bottom line: You can edit PDF files with Acrobat, but I don't think they will be able to replace Word files in the near future. The format just wasn't intended for editability — hence everybody saying it's equivalent to a printout. That's why Papyrus has to do such a weird hack as storing an editable copy inside the PDF.

If you're willing to write your own PDF implementation, you might be able to get something approximating this, but even if you did manage it, it would still only work properly with files your program created. Not sure how much of a market there is for a low-powered word processor with a proprietary version of PDF as its document format.

CharlesS · Jun 16, 2006, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by loren s

but why give us the option of even selecting text ??

It's a user UI No No.. it defeats it's self as a user interactivity tool if I can select text Scale sure but select no..

You can select text on web pages too, but you can't just change them either.

I rather like the ability to copy and paste text out of PDF files...

loren s · Jun 16, 2006, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You can select text on web pages too, but you can't just change them either.

I rather like the ability to copy and paste text out of PDF files...

I knew that would turn up..
To challenge that.. There are free tools available and you can teach a monkey to do basic web editing of text ...

Apfhex · Jun 16, 2006, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by loren s

o challenge that.. There are free tools available and you can teach a monkey to do basic web editing of text ...

I don't know what you're talking about, but... no. That's now how things work.

PDFs are for digitally proofing files, or for sending them to print. The most important part is that the PDf should look the same to anybody on any computer. PDFs are not a format meant for editing. If you must take note of changes to make, that's what features like Preview's Annotate Tool are for.

CharlesS · 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by loren s

I knew that would turn up..
To challenge that.. There are free tools available and you can teach a monkey to do basic web editing of text ...

No you can't. Unless a site is a wiki, or you are the webmaster of the site and have access to the server via SFTP, WebDAV, FTP, or whatever, you're not going to be changing that web site.

For example: Try changing this text in my post, that you're reading right now. Unless you hack either MacNN or my account, you won't be able to do it. To you, it's uneditable, no matter what program you're using.

*cough* mindwaves edit *cough*