[footie07]

Why does installing Safari 3 Beta require a restart?

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

It includes a new version of WebKit, you need to restart to get that new version working.

[Peter]

I can update webkit independently and not require a restart ...

[Art Vandelay]

Yes but you also know that you need to quit all WebKit based apps first before doing that. It's easier for Apple to require a restart which will take care of that than having the user or designing a script that quits all WebKit apps before installing Safari 3. It's just a simpler way of doing it for them.

[footie07]

Thanks for the prompt responses.

Which apps are "Webkit" related.

[Art Vandelay]

Just from Apple...
Safari, Mail, iChat, Dashboard, Dictionary, Xcode, Aperture, Sherlock, Help Viewer

For more...
Applications using WebKit - WebKit - Trac

[Moonray]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

... It's just a simpler way of doing it for them.

And just the more annoying way for users.

-

[JKT]

The main reason is because it modifies the Dock.app and Dashboard.

[besson3c]

It is completely retarded. We have this Unix OS that can do things like determine what processes are using which libraries. Why not simply offer to restart these apps for you, or tell you to do this yourself? It's not like the world blows up because dictionary or help viewer get a little quirky until restart. It's not like the world blows up that we have to restart our client computers either, but is still a PITA, and an embarrassment on OS X Server.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by JKT 

The main reason is because it modifies the Dock.app and Dashboard.

and both can be restarted with a simple single Unix command. Absolutely trivial.

[adamfishercox]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It is completely retarded. We have this Unix OS that can do things like determine what processes are using which libraries. Why not simply offer to restart these apps for you, or tell you to do this yourself? It's not like the world blows up because dictionary or help viewer get a little quirky until restart. It's not like the world blows up that we have to restart our client computers either, but is still a PITA, and an embarrassment on OS X Server.

Why would you use a BETA on a server?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It is completely retarded. We have this Unix OS that can do things like determine what processes are using which libraries. Why not simply offer to restart these apps for you, or tell you to do this yourself? It's not like the world blows up because dictionary or help viewer get a little quirky until restart. It's not like the world blows up that we have to restart our client computers either, but is still a PITA, and an embarrassment on OS X Server.

Wow you seem to be really against OSX lately, but as the other poster mention, why would you put a beta product on OSX Server and being beta maybe there will be no need to reboot the computer when safari goes gold. No reason to get your panties in a bind over some beta software.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Why would you use a BETA on a server?

Not the point. Several of Apple's software updates do this, and it is rather dumb. If I were an OS X server admin and Apple informed me of Safari 3 final available and requiring a restart, this would be about as annoying and appropriate as Microsoft clippy offering to rearrange my Desktop icons or something.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Wow you seem to be really against OSX lately, but as the other poster mention, why would you put a beta product on OSX Server and being beta maybe there will be no need to reboot the computer when safari goes gold. No reason to get your panties in a bind over some beta software.

Jesus Christ people, you love to fixate on these sort of nitpicky details and miss the point consistently.

Many of Apple's updates do this, but the only ones that should really are updates that update the kernel, that is it.

If Safari 3 final also requires a restart, will I all of a sudden be right?

[adamfishercox]

No.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

No.

exactly.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Jesus Christ people, you love to fixate on these sort of nitpicky details and miss the point consistently.

Many of Apple's updates do this, but the only ones that should really are updates that update the kernel, that is it.

If Safari 3 final also requires a restart, will I all of a sudden be right?

Just because I disagree with you you think I'm fixated on apple, in some sort of religious sort of way. All I'm saying is you're getting way to worked up on this and its only beta software. I agree with you in theory that you shouldn't have to reboot for loading an application. Since most (all?) of apple's other offerings don't do this, lets wait and see. Instead you fly off on how this being unix and needing to reboot blah blah blah. ITS BETA and being so it still has some tweaks and fixes.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Just because I disagree with you you think I'm fixated on apple, in some sort of religious sort of way. All I'm saying is you're getting way to worked up on this and its only beta software. I agree with you in theory that you shouldn't have to reboot for loading an application. Since most (all?) of apple's other offerings don't do this, lets wait and see. Instead you fly off on how this being unix and needing to reboot blah blah blah. ITS BETA and being so it still has some tweaks and fixes.

I went off on you because it doesn't matter whether we are talking about Safari or anything else. You fixated on Safari, I was making a general point. People tend to resort to this sort of tactic as a means to get the upper hand in an argument around here, and it's annoying. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and don't babble on about the bathwater when we are talking about the baby

Besides, regardless of whether or not Safari 3 even exists, like I said, these same arguments apply to several other Apple updates.

[MacosNerd]

Well you're replying to my post and your telling me that basically I'm a blind apple zealot. You've done this just about every time I've disagreed with you. I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone but its difficult to disagree with you because you lash out at anyone who agrees with apple's position or disagrees with yours.

For the record I think Apple is doing a lot of good things, there's probably a lot smarter people working there then me. On the other hand, I think they've made mistake in a lot of areas, for instance, dumbing down imovie. Not giving us more choices in the imac, etc.

I have no idea why you need to reboot after loading the beta, mostly because I have not even loaded it on. I prefer to install gold released products, it reduces the chance of having problems (I said reduce not eliminate).

[besson3c]

Macosnerd: I simply react at what is in front of my face and what has been written. Several of your posts come across as very defensive of Apple in a very reactionary way, before you even understand what is actually being said.

I'm sorry if anything I wrote sounded accusational though. I don't think I outwardly called you an Apple zealot, but was likely merely intending to imply that you are coming across as one.

I'm a Mac user like all of us here (I also do a lot of work in Linux and Unix, as I"m sure you are aware of by now), but I just think it is dumb to maintain religious zealous viewpoints about any profit making company. I don't have some sort of anti-Apple agenda, I just express myself and my opinions, which often happen to be critical of Apple. I usually don't bother saying much in agreement when people are saying positive things about Apple, because there is plenty of that around here and I don't think I'd be adding much in simply joining the chorus.

When I do express myself, it is to have my perspective understood, it is not nearly as important that you actually agree with me. I get frustrated when some people seem like they would rather counter my perspective with their zealotry (about any issue) or distracting debate tactics, rather than a more calculated, logical, and well thought-out response. This seems like a conscious attempt to purposely dismiss my perspective before even examining it.

[MacosNerd]

That's fine but just because I disagree with you (and that might mean I agree with apple's position) don't just say its blind zealotry. You've made a lot of posts saying how you use logic well reacting to what is front of your face w/o thinking or debating does not seem to logical too me.

[ghporter]

If a simple Unix script would shut down and (in proper sequence) restart everything, then it would indeed be unnecessary to restart the whole computer. However, except for a server that's actually in use, what's the big deal about restarting a Mac? They start up pretty darn fast-even if you don't compare them to a PC. There seems to be this huge resistance to ever turning a Mac off, even for an instant, and I just don't understand it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

If a simple Unix script would shut down and (in proper sequence) restart everything, then it would indeed be unnecessary to restart the whole computer. However, except for a server that's actually in use, what's the big deal about restarting a Mac? They start up pretty darn fast-even if you don't compare them to a PC. There seems to be this huge resistance to ever turning a Mac off, even for an instant, and I just don't understand it.

It's not a huge deal with a client machine, just a pain in the butt (having to save temporary files various places, reconnect to servers once you are back online, restart web browser sessions or reloading pages manually, etc.).

It is much more of a problem with a server.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's not a huge deal with a client machine, just a pain in the butt (having to save temporary files various places, reconnect to servers once you are back online, restart web browser sessions or reloading pages manually, etc.).

It is much more of a problem with a server.

Typically you don't install software on servers during production hours. I manage about 20 servers (all windows, some production some development) and I can tell you that any installs to production occur off hours with plenty of notice so if a reboot is needed it won't impact any systems.

Additionally (I can only speak about windows) server OSs typically don't need to be rebooted for software installs. I've installed the same software on an XP machine and server 2003 box and the server didn't need to be rebooted while the pc did.

Finally as I mentioned before no beta software ever goes on the servers, regardless if the server is a development box. Only released/supported software

Edit: if you're installing beta software on a production box, rebooting during working hours is the least of your concern.

[Moonray]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

If a simple Unix script would shut down and (in proper sequence) restart everything, then it would indeed be unnecessary to restart the whole computer.

Very right.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

However, except for a server that's actually in use, what's the big deal about restarting a Mac? They start up pretty darn fast-even if you don't compare them to a PC. There seems to be this huge resistance to ever turning a Mac off, even for an instant, and I just don't understand it.

If you’re working on something that requires having some applications running each with several windows open it pretty darn requires some time to re-open all these apps, docs, and websites and arrange everything like it was before. And if you work on more than one thing at the same time these workflows overlap and there are even less points where you can shut down everything that you wouldn’t want to re-open immediately.

I endorse turning computers off when possible, but that’s not the point here. It’s pure lazyness not to put up a warning box that some things will be restarted and run the appropriate commands. Just a few lines of code. Reminds me of overcareful software companies and how they used the old Vise installer. Urgh. It’s just not user friendly.

–

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Typically you don't install software on servers during production hours. I manage about 20 servers (all windows, some production some development) and I can tell you that any installs to production occur off hours with plenty of notice so if a reboot is needed it won't impact any systems.

True, but the thing is, reboots are always a little scary on a server. Not only does it take some of our servers a *long* time to mount, check and repair all SAN disks, but there is always the risk that some service won't start up, that some startup script will fail without being noticed, etc. In general, it isn't a good idea to restart a server unless necessary, and something silly like a web browser or Quicktime update simply should not warrant a reboot of a server.

Yes, these updates can and perhaps should be safely skipped over, but I don't understand why the Software Update couldn't be more intelligent in making appropriate updates available in a way that does not involve planning for a server reboot. The Software Update system seems more brain dead like the Microsoft Clippy thing than anything suitable for large enterprise, unless you know of people that want iPod and iPhone updates on their server

Of course, I have some other complaints about how Apple rolls out updates that relate to servers, but we'll leave it at this for now.

Additionally (I can only speak about windows) server OSs typically don't need to be rebooted for software installs. I've installed the same software on an XP machine and server 2003 box and the server didn't need to be rebooted while the pc did.

AFAIK, the updates Apple pushes across (with exception to OS updates - i.e. 10.4.x updates) are identical on server and client systems. In other words, there is one Safari, one Quicktime, etc.

Finally as I mentioned before no beta software ever goes on the servers, regardless if the server is a development box. Only released/supported software

Obviously.