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Chooglin' · Aug 20, 2007, 02:12 AM

Numbers may look good, but the only real advantage is being able to create and adjust layout. It is a mystery that Microsoft didn't already incorporate this.

In terms of data analysis, even simple analysis, it is just horrid compared to Excel. No goal seek, solver, macros, subtotals, pivot and tables mean you can only do very basic spreadsheets. Even it's processing time is shocking.

Why does everyone keep comparing Numbers to Excel when it so clearly isn't even a competitor? And why is it so hard for apple to incorporate things like goal seek and pivot tables? This has been around for more than 10 years now, so its not like the programmers can't code it..

Big Mac · Aug 20, 2007, 02:18 AM

Apple's first effort is always half-baked at best. They were probably under time constraints to get iWork out some time this year.

mitchell_pgh · Aug 20, 2007, 02:18 AM

IMHO, you are forgetting who this program is for. Also, Excel is 22 years old... I can count 9+ versions of it (not counting the Mac versions where it started).

I feel Apple released a solid 1.0 application. Considering the target audience, I think it will do OK. I played with it, but realized I needed more power for my day to day work... so it was back to Excel. That being said, if there is something I'm working on that needs to look amazing and doesn't need the more advanced calculations, numbers would be a good fit.

OreoCookie · Aug 20, 2007, 02:28 AM

I don't think Number is supposed to compete neck-to-neck with Excel.
For many people, the things you can do with Numbers suffice to do what they want.

BTW, I wouldn't use Excel for any serious statistics or so, either.

mpancha · Aug 20, 2007, 09:48 AM

This is one of those cases where the argument is going to be that Numbers isn't there to compete with Excel... b/c it doesn't (or rather Can't) at this point.

But had it been better as a spreadsheet application, then you'd hear differently from the Mac community.

My take on it is... everyone knows what a spreadsheet app is supposed to do, Excel has defined that. Open Office Calc is 75% of the way there.... Numbers... I'd give it 50%, if that. Given that you know what has to be in a Spreadsheet application as defined by the current leader of the pack, its easier to create what you know you have to do, and then improve... than to think of it from scratch. I expected a lot more out of Numbers.

The one thing I'd hope to see in a Service Pack for Office (or just in Office for Mac when its out in 2008) is the way Numbers has Tables within a spreadsheet, each its own individual spreadsheet. That I must say is very innovative, and the kind of thinking that keeps me buying Apple software as opposed to pirating it.

MacosNerd · Aug 20, 2007, 10:10 AM

Its not a bad first shot, but since this has been rumored for quite some time, I am disappointed in the lack of features regardless if excel is 22 years old.

For instance, print areas, hiding columns, various cell formatting, lack of scripting. The print area and hiding columns is a biggie for me, I have large spreadsheets that I only want to print a portion of them, I can neither hid them nor can I define a small print area.

Overall I like numbers but the lack of features is impeding my use of it.

SVass · Aug 20, 2007, 10:40 AM

I haven't figured out how to "fill down" or "fill right" in Numbers or even if the capability is in it. Excel lagged AppleWorks in the past so I have used that for 20 years or so as it works. I do not like to be abandoned. sam

mpancha · Aug 21, 2007, 02:17 PM

I have been working on an analysis report on Excel, very basic, comparing 3 sets of data, doing a few vlookups between the three sets, all on one spreadsheet... etc. etc.

I figured since I finished the work in Excel, I'd try to replicate the same end result in Numbers just to see if I could do it.

I imported the first set of data (open the existing Excel file with source data), .... and my experiment ended right there. Numbers wasn't able to import 1138 of 4376 rows of data.

I don't know if Numbers is capable of doing something like a Vlookup (didn't get far enough to do a search on Help/Apple Support/Google b/c I got stuck on the first step, bringing in the data).

GUess I'll hold out for iLife 09 before considering removing Office.

analogika · Aug 21, 2007, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I don't think Number is supposed to compete neck-to-neck with Excel.
For many people, the things you can do with Numbers suffice to do what they want.

BTW, I wouldn't use Excel for any serious statistics or so, either.

That's exactly it, though I disagree that it's not competing neck-to-neck with Excel.

Numbers is competing very directly in a substantial market that hitherto simply didn't have a viable alternative to Excel (other than Open-/NeoOffice, which is just as vile as MS Office save not being from Microsoft). The private-use home market.

Lots of people have wanted to do simple spreadsheeting for personal use, and have ended up fighting Excel to that end.

Numbers sets the appropriate focus for the market exactly where Excel fails miserably: usability, and easy creation of tasteful output.

Just as Pages 1.0 set the focus where Word fails miserably: lay-outing tasteful, good-looking documents.

For a substantial portion of the private market, the last reason to spend money on Microsoft applications has just gone away.

More will follow with the release of Numbers 2.0 sometime next year.

analogika · Aug 21, 2007, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chooglin'

Numbers may look good, but the only real advantage is being able to create and adjust layout. It is a mystery that Microsoft didn't already incorporate this.

The reason for this is that Microsoft doesn't do Taste.

And in that, it's equally fair to say that Excel is not even close to competing with Numbers, just as Microsoft Word is not even close to competing with Pages.

(NB: I get what you're saying, and I'm not discounting your point at all; I'm merely saying that Apple is coming from the opposite direction. Your points will probably meet eventually, at version 2.0 or even 3.0)

Chuckit · Aug 21, 2007, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

This is one of those cases where the argument is going to be that Numbers isn't there to compete with Excel... b/c it doesn't (or rather Can't) at this point.

But had it been better as a spreadsheet application, then you'd hear differently from the Mac community.

So…you're saying that if Numbers were a different application with different features, people would probably reach different conclusions about its design goals? I think that's probably true.

SVass · Aug 21, 2007, 04:38 PM

I left Excel years ago (because it had a MATH ERROR) for AppleWorks which did not! MS also kept changing the user interface. I assume that Microsoft fixed the math problem and they can satisfy Arithmetic and Statistics people. Now Apple has caught the stupid disease and drops a working piece of software for something with a whole new interface. I have a lot of old spreadsheets with links and I am not happy. Change to satisfy Newbies is sick. sam

MacosNerd · Aug 21, 2007, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

I don't know if Numbers is capable of doing something like a Vlookup (didn't get far enough to do a search on Help/Apple Support/Google b/c I got stuck on the first step, bringing in the data).

I believe the function you want is lookup, I haven't tried it yet but it appears to be excel's vlookup.

chabig · Aug 21, 2007, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by SVass

I haven't figured out how to "fill down" or "fill right" in Numbers or even if the capability is in it.

Drag the handle on the lower right corner of your active cell. Drag right to fill right. Drag down to fill down.

mpancha · Aug 21, 2007, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So…you're saying that if Numbers were a different application with different features, people would probably reach different conclusions about its design goals? I think that's probably true.

No I'm saying that if the claim of compatibility, and the ability to open Excel files is made... it should live up to it.

This is one of those things I hate about trying to voice an opinion on any forum these days.... you don't have to get all riled up because someone thinks a product which is touted as a spreadsheet doesn't meet other's view of what a spreadsheet is.

I've said it before, Excel set the standard for what a spreadsheet is. All Apple had to do, was copy it, and add their take on design and usability. Not nail the design/usability (for the most part), and fail meeting the criteria of spreadsheet set by what the world uses.

I'm going through my own usability tests, and writing my findings on this forum. Some may find my own finding's useful in helping them decide if Numbers works for them. Or, like in the next part of my post... some may offer advice on helping me get to where I want with an application I'm trying to use. Either way... there's no need to get defensive about me or anyone disliking an Apple product.

MacosNerd >> I'll give "lookup" a try. I'm trying to figure out how to import the text tab delimited data into Numbers to start with though (over 4000 records * 3 reports)

mpancha · Aug 21, 2007, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by chabig

Drag the handle on the lower right corner of your active cell. Drag right to fill right. Drag down to fill down.

One thing I've found with that method... sometimes it tries and autocomplete your data (like if the first cell is 1, and you click/drag the corner down... it will fill in 2,3,4.. etc.

Chuckit · Aug 21, 2007, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

No I'm saying that if the claim of compatibility, and the ability to open Excel files is made... it should live up to it.

Honestly, I thought they were pretty clear that not all of the features in Excel are in Numbers.

Originally Posted by mpancha

This is one of those things I hate about trying to voice an opinion on any forum these days.... you don't have to get all riled up because someone thinks a product which is touted as a spreadsheet doesn't meet other's view of what a spreadsheet is.

All due respect, but you sound a lot more riled up than I am. I just tried to explain that people are right to infer Numbers' target audience from the features that are included. Numbers is obviously not meant to compete with Excel in some areas because it doesn't have features those areas require. If Apple had put in features to address those areas, it would be a different story. Pages also doesn't compete with Word in everything Word does.

mpancha · Aug 21, 2007, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I just tried to explain that people are right to infer Numbers' target audience from the features that are included. Numbers is obviously not meant to compete with Excel in some areas because it doesn't have features those areas require. If Apple had put in features to address those areas, it would be a different story. Pages also doesn't compete with Word in everything Word does.

I'm kind of curious, is there any data out yet from Apple (or anyone) on what people are actually doing with Pages/Keynote? I've seen and heard reviews, but those are always from power users. I'm wondering more on those who I think Apple is targeting, the newbies, the switchers, etc.

analogika · Aug 22, 2007, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by mpancha

This is one of those things I hate about trying to voice an opinion on any forum these days.... you don't have to get all riled up because someone thinks a product which is touted as a spreadsheet doesn't meet other's view of what a spreadsheet is.

Then don't, please.

We know you're perfectly calm. Just...sit down, okay?

MacosNerd · Aug 22, 2007, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by mpancha

No I'm saying that if the claim of compatibility, and the ability to open Excel files is made... it should live up to it.

I don't want to sound like an apple fanboy but with an id like mine that's probably the case

But honestly I found that Numbers is a good first try, not a great one, but a good one. It is indeed lacking in a number of areas but I'm hoping that will be rectified at some point in the near feature. My biggest gripe is some of the basic formatting that excel does is not compatible with Numbers, so when I import a spreadsheet I get a bunch of warnings. I found that for 80% of my needs pages will suffice. I'm testing out the other 20 now.

As for being 100% compatible, that's never going to happen. You cannot just clone excel, because M$ would sue them, plus apple sees the short comings of excel, such as the bloat and purposely ignored features. Then there's some basic features that just didn't make it in bizarre reason like pivot tables but being version 1 I can be a little more forgiving, especially since it does handle the majority of my needs.