[MacTheRiverRat]

Any users or thoughts on this software for X

[CharlesS]

Unnecessary. The scripts do not do anything important, and launchd runs them out of schedule if your computer is asleep at their scheduled time anyway.

[besson3c]

Yeah, I think people need to put it out of their head that they need to run this so called "maintenance" software at regular intervals like they did in the past. Those days are behind us now. Computers aren't cars that need regular oil changes.

[Chuckit]

Not for Leopard. For earlier systems, maybe. Unless you're going to make scheduled tasks of your own and don't want to learn cron or launchd, I don't think Macaroni is that useful anymore.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Computers aren't cars that need regular oil changes.

I love when people invoke the computer - car analogy.

It has FAIL written all over it.

-t

[CharlesS]

I fail to see what is wrong with besson3c's statement.

[besson3c]

Maybe what was wrong was including Windows, I can't speak to that, but modern Unix operating systems generally don't need coddling to keep running the same way as they did since the original install.

[Hal Itosis]

Just to play devil's advocate for one post (the pro-Macaroni argument i usually *get* from its devotees is):
some folks use it to automatically remove foreign *.lproj folders. (i.e., it runs on a schedule and cleans out
unneeded language support from apps and whatnot... so they don't have to do it manually).

What's our comeback to that then?

[besson3c]

find / -name "language.lproj" -type d -exec rm -rf {} \; or Multilingual, or else Macaroni... I'm not against software that serves a useful purpose, but running a command that creates the illusion of doing something productive hardly seems worth the effort...

[CharlesS]

Myself, I would never recommend a command line like that to an end user. There are just too many opportunities for them to make a small typo and delete a lot of stuff they didn't intend to.

Of course, I'm not a fan of this sort of "cleaning" myself - my position is that needing to do things like that is symptomatic of not having a large enough hard drive to suit one's needs, and the solution is just to get a bigger hard drive. They come in extremely large sizes for cheap these days...

[Curiosity]

I use it. I am sure that way that the maintenance tasks get done even though the computer is normally asleep at the times when those things would be done. I like the peace of mind.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Curiosity 

I use it. I am sure that way that the maintenance tasks get done even though the computer is normally asleep at the times when those things would be done. I like the peace of mind.

I believe launchd works over time intervals rather than absolute times like it did in Tiger and earlier, but if you do run Tiger or an earlier version you can also get this by installing Anacron.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Of course, I'm not a fan of this sort of "cleaning" myself - my position is that needing to do things like that is symptomatic of not having a large enough hard drive to suit one's needs, and the solution is just to get a bigger hard drive. They come in extremely large sizes for cheap these days...

That's not the entire extent of the issue though. There's something to be said for reducing the file count by tens-of-thousands of needless items. The less congested the catalog/directory, the less clutter for it to keep track of. Plus, there's the backing up of all that crud too. A double waste of resources. (Fortunately, adding some sort of filter to the backup routine can bypass stuff like that).

Deriding such efforts doesn't sound like the solution. There's nothing "wrong" with bloat-reduction.

--

It would be so great if Apple's Installer.app (and Pacifist?) had options to let users set language prefs.

[CharlesS]

Except that if your disk is full enough that you've got a problem, chances are that even after spending all that time "cleaning", your disk is still full enough that you've got a problem. The space these things take up just isn't that significant relative to the overall size of the drive.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Just to play devil's advocate for one post (the pro-Macaroni argument i usually *get* from its devotees is):
some folks use it to automatically remove foreign *.lproj folders. (i.e., it runs on a schedule and cleans out
unneeded language support from apps and whatnot... so they don't have to do it manually).

What's our comeback to that then?

If you feel like that's a task that you need to repeat on a regular schedule, Macaroni is a good purchase. Like CharlesS said, though, I don't think that's generally all that useful.

Originally Posted by Curiosity 

I use it. I am sure that way that the maintenance tasks get done even though the computer is normally asleep at the times when those things would be done. I like the peace of mind.

In 10.4, that was a legitimate concern because it appears that they wouldn't get done if your computer was asleep. In 10.5, launchd will automatically be handling this for you, so it's kind of redundant.

[CharlesS]

In 10.4, the "concern" was that although launchd was automatically handling this for you, sometimes it would be buggy and fail to do so on some day or other. And of course, if the all-important task of rotating the log files didn't get done every day, your computer would spontaneously explode.

Or something.

[Ted L. Nancy]

I use Macaroni. Actually, I don't use it, but I have it and it does whatever it does, including never asking me to pay for an upgrade. Having it makes me feel better... about life.. things. Plus it has a neat name.

[Curiosity]

I am using Tiger. For me, Macaroni was worth it.

[CharlesS]

I notice that neither of you are giving a substantial reason why it would be worth it...

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Except that if your disk is full enough that you've got a problem, chances are that even after spending all that time "cleaning", your disk is still full enough that you've got a problem. The space these things take up just isn't that significant relative to the overall size of the drive.

Sounds like a moderately "pro-waste" stance.

And no one said anything about "disk is full enough that you've got a problem". You seem anxious to slant this into being an issue about fixing some imaginary problem (by getting a bigger disk). I'd reduce that file count no matter how many gigs of headroom I had. Some folks simply don't appreciate their HD being used as a garbage dump, by Apple and other developers.

If someone enjoys storing (and backing up) all those Arabic, Bulgarian, Chinese, Dutch, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., languages... then fine. Doing so just doesn't sound all that smart to me. (The more files to track, the more work/time needed... and the the more chance of something getting gunked up). It would be so great if Apple's Installer.app (and Pacifist?) had options to let users set language prefs.

--

For anyone who missed it: i don't use (or advocate the use of) Macaroni... but -- for the
purpose of language cleaning -- i can see where someone else might.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I notice that neither of you are giving a substantial reason why it would be worth it...

It sounds you need to expand your software offerings to include easy money making placebo maintenance tools like this... Maybe an app that generates a progress bar that says "calibrating and repairing permissions for OS X Core Data internal cache", or "fine tuning flex capacitor"?

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It sounds you need to expand your software offerings to include easy money making placebo maintenance tools like this... Maybe an app that generates a progress bar that says "calibrating and repairing permissions for OS X Core Data internal cache", or "fine tuning flex capacitor"?

Does that mean you keep all foreign languages preserved on your HD for posterity?

Since you're an rsync warrior, you probably have some language filter to reduce backup?
Something like this (excerpt):

Code:
cat > "$FILTER" <<-'DoCopy'
	+ en.lproj/
	+ sv.lproj/
	+ English.lproj/
	+ Swedish.lproj/
	+ Contents/**/locale*/en*/
	+ Contents/**/locale*/sv/
DoCopy

cat >> "$FILTER" <<-'NoCopy'
	- *.lproj/
	- Contents/**/locale*/*
:
:
:
:
NoCopy

?
That one keeps English and Swedish and skips the rest.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Does that mean you keep all foreign languages preserved on your HD for posterity?

I don't bother trimming them down, as I don't backup my applications, just my user data, and I'm not low on HD space right now. If I wanted to delete the foreign languages I could do so without some $10 shareware app.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

And no one said anything about "disk is full enough that you've got a problem". You seem anxious to slant this into being an issue about fixing some imaginary problem (by getting a bigger disk).

Quite simply, because if you don't have a problem, then there's no need to fix it.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It sounds you need to expand your software offerings to include easy money making placebo maintenance tools like this... Maybe an app that generates a progress bar that says "calibrating and repairing permissions for OS X Core Data internal cache", or "fine tuning flex capacitor"?

Oh believe me, I'm kicking myself all the time over that. If I hadn't had this cumbersome thing called a "conscience", I'd be posting this from my yacht.

I can certainly see that Hal Itosis wants me to add that junk to Pacifist, as he seems to keep copying and pasting this in the thread:

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

It would be so great if Apple's Installer.app (and Pacifist?) had options to let users set language prefs.

I'm not sure exactly what he means by it, though, since we've got an option to set language prefs already:

[Chuckit]

I don't think it's fair to say Macaroni is a "placebo" or "unconscionable." At its heart, it's basically just a graphical cron scheduler that also makes up for some holes that used to exist in Mac OS X's implementation. It's only $10 (much cheaper than Pacifist), so although it's not useful for everybody, it's a simple and cheap tool that does exactly what it says on the tin.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I'm not sure exactly what he means by it, though, since we've got an option to set language prefs already:

A little slow today, are we?

I meant (obviously) that Installer.app should allow us to predetermine what languages don't pollute our HD in the first place. Installing gigs of extra (useless) junk from the get-go... that's the "problem". It's a design problem. It's also a mindset which blatantly disregards the user's right not to have their Mac be a receptacle for worthless wasteful dreck. It reflects a lack of pride in one's work, and honor for things such as efficiency and even basic courtesy.

But you knew that. [haha]
Thanks.

[CharlesS]

It's not a placebo if you're using it as a graphical cron scheduler for some legitimate reason. However, if you're using it as a "maintenance" tool for fear that your Mac won't "run smoothly" if you don't, then it most definitely is a placebo and snake oil. So how are they marketing the app? Let's have a look.

The MacUpdate page begins with:

Macaroni is a tool which handles regular maintenance for Mac OS X's UNIX core.

Hmm, what does their web site list as the key benefits of the app?

Macaroni helps you by:
Running improved versions of Mac OS X Unix maintenance, to clean out temporary and junk files that don't get removed otherwise.
Repairing permissions.
Removing language-specific files you don't need (save GB of disk space).
Running your own custom maintenance jobs.

...

It's like a Roomba for your Mac.

So it's an app for running the periodic scripts, repairing permissions, and deleting language files on a schedule - all completely unnecessary. The only theoretically useful feature is the ability to schedule your own jobs, and that feature's got bottom billing in the feature list.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

I meant (obviously) that Installer.app should allow us to predetermine what languages don't pollute our HD in the first place. Installing gigs of extra (useless) junk from the get-go... that's the "problem". It's a design problem. It's also a mindset which blatantly disregards the user's right not to have their Mac be a receptacle for worthless wasteful dreck. It reflects a lack of pride in one's work, and honor for things such as efficiency and even basic courtesy.

You mean like the "Customize" button in the installer?

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't bother trimming them down, as I don't backup my applications, just my user data, and I'm not low on HD space right now.

The /System/Library folder is loaded with languages too, as is /Library.
(so... you don't backup any of those 3 then???)

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If I wanted to delete the foreign languages I could do so without some $10 shareware app.

Not all users are command line aficionados. (i have to remind myself that sometimes)

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

You mean like the "Customize" button in the installer?

I've got the 10.5.6 Combo Update dmg mounted and i can't quite find that button.
Can you hold my hand and walk me through it?
(and put down that stick please)

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

I've got the 10.5.6 Combo Update dmg mounted and i can't quite find that button.
Can you hold my hand and walk me through it?
(and put down that stick please)

Why don't you just use the regular 10.5.6 updater?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

The /System/Library folder is loaded with languages too, as is /Library.
(so... you don't backup any of those 3 then???)

No, I don't backup anything that can be easily replaced.

Not all users are command line aficionados. (i have to remind myself that sometimes)

I know, but then again perhaps users who are not comfortable in the CLI shouldn't be downloading and running these sorts of apps anyway without really understanding what they are doing?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I know, but then again perhaps users who are not comfortable in the CLI shouldn't be downloading and running these sorts of apps anyway without really understanding what they are doing?

The most wonderful example of this is one that bit not only the newbies, HARD:

Monolingual BY DEFAULT removed ALL PPC code from Intel systems to free up all that precious space (merely a few GB). Search these forums for a bunch of threads from confused users wondering why nothing that uses Rosetta would launch anymore.

[besson3c]

Ouch!

Getting Mac users out of the mentality of "hmm, I don't understand that, but it sounds good so I'll download it, run it and give it my password" will certainly help prevent the Mac becoming a target for worms and viruses.

Do you remember that malware that actually took advantage of people running the repair permission script?

If we want to perpetuate the Macs are immunie from viruses line, we also need to get people to stop wasting their time trying to "fine tune" their system when they have no idea what they are doing. Leave the fine tuning to Apple, and focus on fine tuning your workflow.... My two cents.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I know, but then again perhaps users who are not comfortable in the CLI shouldn't be downloading and running these sorts of apps anyway without really understanding what they are doing?

It seems rather elitist to draw a connection between preferring a GUI and being an idiot. Perhaps I should say that if you're not comfortable reading disassembler output, you shouldn't be running programs on your computer?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It seems rather elitist to draw a connection between preferring a GUI and being an idiot. Perhaps I should say that if you're not comfortable reading disassembler output, you shouldn't be running programs on your computer?

Why? There are computer savvy users that can't find their way around a CLI, granted, but they could figure out a CLI if they knew the syntax of the command they wanted, because they would understand what they were doing. If they knew that they wanted to ping an IP address, for instance, it wouldn't really matter whether they would have to click a button in a GUI, type in the word "ping" into their console, or even "spaghetti" into their console - if there was documentation or enough visual aids and clues they could figure this out, and they would know what to expect from running the command in terms of output and results.

[Maflynn]

regardless if you're proficient with the CLI or like to stick with the gui, running some of these applications can cause problems if people are not careful. As Spheric Harlot mentioned too many people removed all of the PPC code and thus impacting rosetta. Too many people blindly run these things because they believe the mac will protect themselves from their own misdeeds. I always tread lightly and make sure my TM backup is up to date.

[TETENAL]

The thing is, regular users don't want to "ping an IP address". Thy want to know why their internet doesn't work. And that's why a GUI application like "Network Diagnosis" (launchable from a Safari error) or Mail's "Connection Diagnosis" is infinitely more useful then "ping".

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The thing is, regular users don't want to "ping an IP address". Thy want to know why their internet doesn't work. And that's why a GUI application like "Network Diagnosis" (launchable from a Safari error) or Mail's "Connection Diagnosis" is infinitely more useful then "ping".

True. However, in this case with no network what you can do on the computer is limited, therefore the GUI you are describing falls into the category of troubleshooting. The mind set of a user without a working network is focused on getting his/user network to work, these GUIs are designed to help accomplish this goal.

Applications like Macaroni are designed for people who like to tinker and optimize. They are optional tools, not troubleshooting tools. If you don't know what you are doing, running these tools is sort of like experimenting with your car by upgrading parts under your hood with no real understanding as to what you are doing. This is what I'm getting at.

[Spheric Harlot]

IOW, it's basically the same thing as running commands from the command line without knowing what you're doing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

IOW, it's basically the same thing as running commands from the command line without knowing what you're doing.

Yes, although I'd wager a bet that people are less likely to type a whole bunch of stuff in without knowing what they are doing rather than click on a shiny button and not knowing what they are doing. People are perfectly willing to click on buttons such as okay buttons, because they have been so conditioned to do so without thinking twice.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Why don't you just use the regular 10.5.6 updater?

Why don't you:
a) pay attention?
b) stay on topic?
c) answer the question?
d) or, simply admit you were wrong: there is no way to "customize" languages during any kind of update.

<sheesh - gimme a break>

BTW, to answer your irrelevant (escapist) question: delta updates are known to cause <problems>, and
-- if a user has a few different Macs to update -- it's better to download one combo than several deltas.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Do you remember that malware that actually took advantage of people running the repair permission script?

No one remembers that, because it never existed. (and if you search, you'll find i had to correct both
you and Charles on this before): malware doesn't need "people" to run permissions repair... the code
itself can simply call /usr/sbin/diskutil repairPermissions / anytime it wants.

(somehow *myth* is more memorable than truth i s'pose)

[Spheric Harlot]

I was going to say, I thought I kept up on such matters.

First I *ever* heard of such an "issue"...

[auto_immune]

Why even bother with a one_shot_deal app like Macaroni when you can use OnyX?

OnyX allows you to verify the Startup Disk and the structure of its System files, to run misc tasks of system maintenance, to configure the hidden parameters of the Finder, Dock and of some of Apple's own applications, to delete caches, to remove a certain number of files and folders that may become cumbersome and more.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Why don't you:
a) pay attention?
b) stay on topic?
c) answer the question?
d) or, simply admit you were wrong: there is no way to "customize" languages during any kind of update.

Why don't you:

a) pay attention,
b) stop making it personal,
c) think for a moment and realize that the patch package only includes what has changed from the older 10.5.5 version, which since most of the 10.5.x updates are usually bug fixes and not interface overhauls, usually includes very little from the localizations. In particular, some of the "patch packages" downloaded by Software Update include patches rather than complete files, and as such need to have the existing files present in order to update them at all.

delta updates are known to cause <problems>

BS. The vast, vast majority of Mac users only update their Macs via Software Update. If that were known to cause some sort of widespread problem (as opposed to isolated edge cases), then we'd have reports of 98% of Mac users' machines exploding or whatever (and "problems" that only bother people afflicted with OCD such as harmless messages appearing in the Repair Permissions script do not count). The Combo update's purpose is to update everything to the latest version, and that includes the localizations.

It's all a pointless issue anyway. The only reason you're all gung-ho about the localizations now is because you can see them now if you poke into the packages. In OS 9, such resources were hidden away in the resource fork where you couldn't see them, and thus couldn't delete them easily without a tool like ResEdit (which wouldn't be advisable anyway), but I don't remember hearing anyone screaming about that.

Originally Posted by auto_immune 

Why even bother with a one_shot_deal app like Macaroni when you can use OnyX?

Why bother with any of these snake-oil "maintenance" apps when you can just use your computer?

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The Combo update's purpose is to update everything to the latest version, and that includes the localizations.

Understood... but that just brings us back to my whimsical utterance: "it would be so great if Apple's Installer.app had options to let users set language prefs." And -- as you pointed out -- the initial full install process does have a "customize" feature which lets us filter out languages (which btw does not *totally* skip all such unnecessary files), so why isn't a similar (but more complete) feature like that sitting right in Installer.app's prefs? It would eliminate the need for 3rd-party tools to remove such items, since users would be spared their existence from ever occurring.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It's all a pointless issue anyway. The only reason you're all gung-ho about the localizations now is because you can see them now if you poke into the packages. In OS 9, such resources were hidden away in the resource fork where you couldn't see them, and thus couldn't delete them easily without a tool like ResEdit (which wouldn't be advisable anyway), but I don't remember hearing anyone screaming about that.

Yeah, perhaps. But -- and this is every bit as important as that observation: what if the moon is made of cheese?

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Understood... but that just brings us back to my whimsical utterance: "it would be so great if Apple's Installer.app had options to let users set language prefs." And -- as you pointed out -- the initial full install process does have a "customize" feature which lets us filter out languages (which btw does not *totally* skip all such unnecessary files), so why isn't a similar (but more complete) feature like that sitting right in Installer.app's prefs? It would eliminate the need for 3rd-party tools to remove such items, since users would be spared their existence from ever occurring.

The reason the OS install has that option is because the language packs are all spun off into seperate packages. French.pkg, German.pkg, et al are all separate packages containing the resources for those specific languages. If this were done for the OS update packages, you'd see a thousand packages in Software Update every time a new update came out, with a separate package for each individual language. Is that really what you want? And wouldn't this defeat the purpose of the Combo Update, whose entire purpose is to be a combination of all previously issued updates?

Yeah, perhaps. But -- and this is every bit as important as that observation: what if the moon is made of cheese?

Uh, what?

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The reason the OS install has that option is because the language packs are all spun off into seperate packages. French.pkg, German.pkg, et al are all separate packages containing the resources for those specific languages. If this were done for the OS update packages, you'd see a thousand packages in Software Update every time a new update came out, with a separate package for each individual language. Is that really what you want?

Really? Is that really the *only* way it could ever possibly be implemented?!?
There's no way Installer.app could be coded to simply skip over user-defined language folders?!?
Seems to me somewhere before it writes to disk that would be a rather trivial task to implement.
Like i said above... it's partly a design problem. Plus a lack of will and/or compassion.

Just witness the monstrosities called (how ironic) "designable.nib" they shove onto millions of Macs worldwide!!!
What an embarrassment. Go ahead Leopard users, search for designable.nib inside of packages using:
find /Applications -name designable.nib -exec du -ch {} +
It's garbage, every bit of it... to the last 1 and 0. When finished with /Applications, try it on /System.

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

And wouldn't this defeat the purpose of the Combo Update, whose entire purpose is to be a combination of all previously issued updates?

No my Good Sir... it would supplement that. (it would be a preference that the user sets, skipping only what they designate)

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Uh, what?

Exactly.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Really? Is that really the *only* way it could ever possibly be implemented?!?
There's no way Installer.app could be coded to simply skip over user-defined language folders?!?
Seems to me somewhere before it writes to disk that would be a rather trivial task to implement.
Like i said above... it's partly a design problem. Plus a lack of will and/or compassion.

Compassion? What?

Just witness the monstrosities called (how ironic) "designable.nib" they shove onto millions of Macs worldwide!!!

They make the nib file designable - i.e. able to be opened and edited. What's ironic about that?

What an embarrassment. Go ahead Leopard users, search for designable.nib inside of packages using:
find /Applications -name designable.nib -exec du -ch {} +
It's garbage, every bit of it... to the last 1 and 0. When finished with /Applications, try it on /System.

It's not garbage, it makes the nibs possible to open. Without those files, they'll just give an error message if you try to open them.

Exactly.

So basically, you intentionally made no sense at all instead of making a point, just to be confusing. Okay...