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Veltliner · Mar 16, 2009, 03:36 PM

I need to create a mailing list to send out newsletters regularly to the same people.

I couldn't find anything online that would suggest that Apple's Mail could do that.

I found links to plug-ins, and it looks like there are dozens of them.

Which one's our preferred plug-in?

Veltliner · Mar 16, 2009, 04:09 PM

So far I found those two apps:

A.......THUNDERBIRD

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id...Container_link

B.......EUDORA

(it's based on Thunderbird, so I wonder what the differences are)

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/7107

questions:

1. Can you send out mail in html format? (apple mail can't).

2. Can you create a mailing list?

philm · Mar 16, 2009, 04:10 PM

Do you need some sort of mail-merge type functionality? Otherwise, what's difficult about this?

besson3c · Mar 16, 2009, 06:03 PM

How big will these lists be? If they are large enough, you should look into server-side mail list software such as Mailman. It can be setup to give people the ability to unsubscribe their own addresses which is in compliance with the CAN-SPAM act, and it can help reduce your spam scores.

Veltliner · Mar 16, 2009, 11:16 PM

No, it's just a few dozen. But try to send 50 e-mails one by one.

I wouldn't go as far as buying one of those bulk-mail applications, because I don't need it.

But to send out a newsletter to people you are doing business with - and in HTML - if those features were available, it would be worth switching from Apple's mail to some other app.

besson3c · Mar 16, 2009, 11:19 PM

I wouldn't buy a bulk mail application either, nor would I pay a spam company, I use Mailman on my own SMTP server and have a simple script that helps generate the multipart HTML email messages based on my HTML content and HTML template.

Veltliner · Mar 16, 2009, 11:34 PM

Is Mailman an application you buy and download, or is it part of cPanel?

Would you have a link?

besson3c · Mar 16, 2009, 11:43 PM

It's an open source server-side mailer, not an application. You would need to have knowledge of the Unix command line to install this, most likely. It runs using the Python programming language.

I know this sounds like much more than you had bargained for, but there is so much that can go wrong with sending out mass mailings, and at times so much of a penalty. For starters, not having a mechanism to automate unsubscribing is illegal and annoying. Secondly, if you don't know what you are doing your mail will be flagged as spam, possibly putting the SMTP server you are using at risk of being blacklisted on one of over 97 public blacklists, plus several private ones. There are several tricks and gotchas to working with AOL and other private mail service providers, and several design issues that can cause rendering problems with the various email clients (web and desktop based) out there.

In short, this is not a task for a cute little point and click turnkey style Desktop application, if you really want to do this smartly, that is.

Veltliner · Mar 16, 2009, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

It's an open source server-side mailer, not an application. You would need to have knowledge of the Unix command line to install this, most likely. It runs using the Python programming language.

I know this sounds like much more than you had bargained for, but there is so much that can go wrong with sending out mass mailings, and at times so much of a penalty. For starters, not having a mechanism to automate unsubscribing is illegal and annoying. Secondly, if you don't know what you are doing your mail will be flagged as spam, possibly putting the SMTP server you are using at risk of being blacklisted on one of over 97 public blacklists, plus several private ones. There are several tricks and gotchas to working with AOL and other private mail service providers, and several design issues that can cause rendering problems with the various email clients (web and desktop based) out there.

In short, this is not a task for a cute little point and click turnkey style Desktop application, if you really want to do this smartly, that is.

Thank you for your knowledgeable and detailed reply.

Definitely, I don't want anybody to see my mail as spam. Even sending out mail one by one can be annoying for a receiver, so your point of using a server-side mailer is very good.

I'm currently well covered with computer books: getting to a good level with html/css and javascript is scheduled right afterwards. I'm not sure if I want to eye the tight embrace of Python right now.

I get mails from smaller companies regularly, and all of them have unsubscribe links. So those guys were paying an IT guy, is that it?

PS: I heard about PHP. It's also a server-side programming language. A competitor to Python?

besson3c · Mar 17, 2009, 12:14 AM

You don't need to know anything about Python to use Mailman, I just mention that because I imagine that most hosting providers are not going to want to provide you with access to a tool like that, they generally try to distance themselves from potential spam as aggressively as is prudent. You'll just need a host with Mailman installed, some sort of SMTP gateway, and yes, Python is a programming language like PHP.

What you might want to think about is getting yourself your own VPS from Slicehost or Linode for $20/month. This will give you a server with root access that you can install Mailman on and control. Mailman includes a web interface, which should make setup and configuration relatively easy.

You'll also want to learn a lot about using a mail transport agent such as Postfix or Exim for actually sending the mail that Mailman queues for you. Using Postfix and the amavisd interface you can establish local policy to prevent all of your outgoing messages from not being spam checked. Otherwise, if you send mail through your ISP's mail server, your outbound mail may very well be checked and a spam score assigned. Most SMTP servers ought to be configured to discard spam scores before their own content analysis, but some may be designed to inspect spam X-headers in some fashion. Running your own SMTP server will also help you to monitor whether your IP gets added to blacklists, and to take your own corrective action as the owner of the server.

If all of this sounds like something that is more than you want to learn, I would recommend looking into getting some help, but I would *not* recommend using some sort of commercial mass mail service. It would suck to pay a company like this money only for your messages to be promptly filed in people's junk mail folders, or automatically discarded or rejected.

If you would like my help, feel free to contact me privately.

Veltliner · Mar 17, 2009, 11:00 PM

Thank you, besson3c, for your generous offer.

Postfix, in combination with Mailman, sounds very good to me. I have to check my current provider what they think of mailman and will check out Slicehost and Linode that you mentioned.

I will attack this matter after I finished my turn with HTML/CSS and got some way into Javascript (which I definitely want to learn).

Veltliner · Apr 11, 2009, 01:20 PM

Update:

I found a way to send HTML formatted e-mail from Apple's Mail app (which I like best - I just erased Thunderbird, which crashed every time I tried to send).

http://creativebits.org/webdev/creat...er_on_your_mac

Looks like there is a function in Safari that's called "mail a page", which is the key to this.

Don't know if you can do it on Tiger yet, or if you need to have Leopard. Will keep you posted.

Veltliner · Apr 11, 2009, 01:22 PM

Update 2:

If you need to mail a newsletter and can't really get too much into new software right now, here you can send e-mails to a mailing list for 3 cents each.

http://www.mailchimp.com/pricing/

besson3c · Apr 11, 2009, 04:30 PM

Veltlinger: no offense, but both are bad ideas.

You are only looking at this problem from the perspective of "how do I do this?" Just because you have found a way to do this doesn't mean that you should do it this way, necessarily. There are a number of other issues you need to take into account as discussed here. Mailchimp sounds like a great way to have your mailings flagged as spam, and sending mail out via your ISPs mail server via Safari's mail function likewise. We haven't even touched on compatibility of code across the major email clients, dealing with max recipients per message limitations, etc.

Veltliner · Apr 12, 2009, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Veltlinger: no offense, but both are bad ideas.

You are only looking at this problem from the perspective of "how do I do this?" Just because you have found a way to do this doesn't mean that you should do it this way, necessarily. There are a number of other issues you need to take into account as discussed here. Mailchimp sounds like a great way to have your mailings flagged as spam, and sending mail out via your ISPs mail server via Safari's mail function likewise. We haven't even touched on compatibility of code across the major email clients, dealing with max recipients per message limitations, etc.

I'm not offended, on the contrary. It's always better to know an idea's a bad one before you put it into action.

Looks like server-side mailing programs like Mail Man have a different digital footprint walking the internet, and this is what makes them better...

Would it even be a bad idea if I called the person who's about to get that email? ( I guess so. It'll still get stuck in the filter, as no busy front desk person would enter e-mail addresses for clearance).

Alright, I'll go the long route and do it right. (looks like I have to add that to my software learning stack, which is already nicely full with my next project, Javascript. Don't get me started with Photo software... hoho).

PS: always enjoy your knowledge. Remember when we talked about HTML and CSS and iWeb and its crappy code? I actually went to learn both and now I have a nice running website that doesn't look like all the others and even passed the w3.org validation with zero mistakes in both HTML (transitional, I don't do strict with my use of the iframe) and CSS. iWeb got erased from my hard drive. Requiescat in pace.

Veltliner · Apr 12, 2009, 01:15 PM

I just learned that my provider offers Mailman under the mailing list features of cPanel.

Now I have to see if they support/offer Postfix or Exim.

besson3c · Apr 12, 2009, 01:30 PM

You're on the right track! I'm sure that if they have Mailman installed they have some sort of MTA available - whether it is Postfix or Exim doesn't matter to you. The point is, a hosting provider's netblock is going to be registered as static IP space and therefore much less likely to be blacklisted off the bat (and you can confirm this at dnstools.com by having it search through a number of blacklists). You are still going to have to compete with other users of these SMTP server(s) and their misuse, but chances are the probability is much lower than a service like Mailchimp which is likely a magnet for misuse.

Furthermore, Mailman will allow your subscribers to unsubscribe their address from your list, which is a legal requirement of the CAN-SPAM act.

Veltliner · Apr 12, 2009, 11:01 PM

The SMTP MTA is Exim, also embedded (if this is the right word) into cPanel's mailing list feature.

I really have a neat host with Synhosting and I don't think they allow anybody to send out mails that would put the static IP address at risk (I see now that the static IP address is the key thing that sets you apart from mass mailing services).

Now I'm going through the cPanel manual, and there's also a video tutorial on the mailing list. This is an ideal solution for me. I get more web savvy using the right tools and stay on the good side of law and respect. After all, most people I will mail to will be contacted by phone first (at least new people that never had anything to do with my business. I'm very sensitive to spamming myself and so I respect other people's privacy).

Thanks again for the good info. Now I'm digging in my heels to learn all those new things, where to place the file to be sent, how to create a queue, etc.

Quatrokid · Apr 28, 2009, 12:41 PM

I am searching for software or shareware for Mac that will help me create postal (snail-mail not email) mailing lists in Excel. I currently have contact information cut & pasted from the web, saved in either .pdf or .doc format. I do know how to turn into comma delineated form, but it is very tedious and will take forever (removing all spaces, adding commas then exporting into Excel) Another problem is that this contact information is not uniform in term of the order the data appears, so I would probably have to fix that manually too. E.g. the contact name may be listed first, last or somewhere in-between. Grrr. This is for a very worthy non-profit. We just want to mail some postcards out & the printer wants this in Excel format. Any advice will be appreciated.