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cogsci · Sep 5, 2002, 12:11 PM

We publish math texts and are looking to get out of the mess that is Microsoft Word. We're considering Quark, InDesign and Framemaker. Given our subject matter, one of our primary criteria is that we be able to easily enter formatted math. My understanding is that Framemaker has this built in. I've found 2 Xtensions (mathsetter and mathmagic) that claim to add this to Quark (both v.4).

Does anyone have any experience with these Xtensions? Is there anything similar for InDesign? Any reason why we shouldn't just go with Framemaker?

Apple Pro Underwear · Sep 5, 2002, 02:21 PM

isn't framemaker for html design? Pagemaker? Go with Pagemaker if the emphasis is not on design and pictures and with text instead.

i dont have experience with this but i'm a quark user now....move away from quark. by the time they figure out that a they need to make OSX version, Indesign will have stolen their market share.

Also, you'll have to stay in OS9 if you plan to shell out 800 dollars for it. Maybe next year you'll be forced to buy OSX version too...Quark has no management whatsoever.

cogsci · Sep 6, 2002, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
isn't framemaker for html design? Pagemaker? Go with Pagemaker if the emphasis is not on design and pictures and with text instead.

No, Framemaker will output HTML, but its mostly used for long technical documents (like software documentation). I get the feeling Adobe's long-term plan is to move Framemaker features over to InDesign (and move the customer base, too), but InDesign isn't there yet. In fact, I haven't found any equation editor for InDesign, which pretty much puts it out of the running for us.

I worry about Pagemaker being an orphaned product, too.

Apple Pro Underwear · Sep 6, 2002, 09:32 AM

Seems like framemaker is the choice app for your industry...

but maybe use framemaker for your interiors and use another program to design cover, ifc and etc as well as any pages needing pictures and graphics...

output in pdf and assemble a "print optimized" PDF with the highest settings for your printer

Or just use framemaker for everything to keep it simple and cost-efficent. sounds like you have no options.

Corys · Sep 6, 2002, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by cogsci:

I worry about Pagemaker being an orphaned product, too.

I would be worried as well...I think that Adobe kept pagemaker around until indesign matured to a useable product.
Now that ID2 has become a very nice product, I doubt pagemaker will be updated anymore (thank god!)

Gillfoto · Sep 7, 2002, 08:18 PM

Yeah, I believe you're right. Pagemkaer days are numbered, and I'm getting tired of it's recent buggyiness. Pity Adobe didn't give a better deal to switch.

Originally posted by Corys:

I would be worried as well...I think that Adobe kept pagemaker around until indesign matured to a useable product.
Now that ID2 has become a very nice product, I doubt pagemaker will be updated anymore (thank god!)

smeger · Sep 23, 2002, 05:40 PM

I'm not sure whether this is appropriate, but the standard for publishing mathematical technical papers in the sciences is LaTEX. There's a (reputedly) good front-end for it under Mac OS X called TexShop. It's available from versiontracker.com

Vsx1 · Oct 19, 2002, 08:11 PM

You may wish to try using math SW such as Maple or Mathematica. I know Maple has HTML support and you can create math documents within the program.

www.maplesoft.com
www.wolfram.com

cogsci · Oct 21, 2002, 12:53 PM

While we could use some variant of TeX, we want something that's less techy-oriented (remember, the authors are currently using Word). I suppose its possible that a whole text could be written in Maple or Mathematica, but those aren't made for it.

We like a lot about InDesign, but it doesn't seem to have any integrated math formatting. If that's true, then we're stuck with either Quark (with either MathMagic or mathSetter) or else use Framemaker (which includes the same formatting as the graphing calculator on OS9).

jesperas · 06:51 AM

I'd go with Framemaker, if the choice is between that and Quark. Framemaker is better for highly structured documents that contain elements such as multiple subheads, footnotes, numbered equations, references/cross references, and lists. Framemaker can tag these elements, keeping track of their numbering automatically. Framemaker still has a learning curve, but it isn't as steep as LaTex. A lot of educational and technical publishers (Addison Wesley and O'Reily, for example) use Framemaker to typeset their books because of its ability to handle highly structured documents.

Quark is better at design, typography, and color management. The math extensions will give it the ability to set equations, but there's more to math texts than just equations. Elements such as subheads, references, running heads, and footnotes need to be kept track of manually in Quark.

FYI, Bluesky research, which developed the Quark Mathsetter extension, also developed Textures, which is a flavor of LaTex for the Mac. I'm told that it has a GUI which levels out the learning curve somewhat, but I've never used it before (though, I've worked with vendors that do).

One possibility, if you have the time/budget, would be to buy/download trial versions of each and test them out to see which fits your needs better--whether you need design or management of structured documents

BTW, what level of math are we talking about here?

Also, when you say that your "authors are currently using Word," does this mean that you are intending Framemaker to be used by your authors, who will be providing "camera ready" manuscripts?

chris.p · Oct 22, 2002, 11:06 AM

just so you know, quark 4/5 extensions will most likely not work with a native osx version of quark- which is supposedly coming in jan (if you belive the rumours) so you will have to upgrade them too- if they port them, that is.

cogsci · Oct 22, 2002, 02:30 PM

Framemaker's definitely a possibility. I think what makes this hard is that we're somewhere between Framemaker and InDesign/Quark. Our texts (for high school and middle school) are workbook-like, so we control pagination (a single problem fits on a page, for example). But our books are long and do contain simple mathematics, so that looks more like Framemaker.

I'm generally skeptical about Quark (since the company seems horrible and I am worried about Xtension support in the future) but, on the other hand, I was able to write an AppleScript in about half an hour that would take our student text and produce the teacher guide (basically taking the student text page-by-page, shrinking it down to a smaller image and including commentary for the teacher next to it). I've heard that Framemaker is scriptable on the Mac (and I've heard about FrameScript on Windows), but I'm not sure how well its implemented or how widely used.

I'm also concerned that Adobe's putting their efforts into InDesign, not Framemaker.

InDesign might be a great choice for us, if it just supported inline math. Maybe we'll just copy and paste from MathType...

jesperas · Oct 24, 2002, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by cogsci:

I'm also concerned that Adobe's putting their efforts into InDesign, not Framemaker.

This is purely speculation, but I think there's a large enough niche market for Adobe to keep Framemaker around. I'm sure that some of the features in FM will make it into ID, though.

Pagemaker, I think, has it's days numbered. ID and PM do almost exactly the same things (with ID doing them much better, of course). Then again, Adobe may want to keep PM around as a competitor to MS Publisher...but who uses Publisher for real work?

InDesign might be a great choice for us, if it just supported inline math. Maybe we'll just copy and paste from MathType...

More likely you'll have to export the equations as EPS files from MathType and import them as graphics in ID. Possible for display equations, but a serious pain for anything in-line.