[kulverse]

I mean it really is interesting. Made me think a bit. While I agree with the Art_Director and the rest, I honestly believe that mixin visuals didn't mean any harm, and had the best intentions.

When someone decides he/she wants to become a graphic designer, or dabble in it, I think doing free/cheap stuff gives the required experience to reach their goals. I know when I first started ( 13 years ago...uggggg), I was doing plenty of free stuff. It was much needed experience, and I'm better for it. Now that graphic design is my profession, and pays my bills, I don't need to do that anymore.

Our (my buddy and I) Freelance studio however, still underbids, and does does an occasion cheap job to get our name out. And it's working. We are now doing design and web design for several national recording artists. (Online Portfolio to be updated soon )

Hmmmm...It's a touchy subject. But I think in this case, its benign. He asked for design.... Several people helped him out by their own choice. Hell...I dunno....Im thinking out loud.

[DeathMan]

anyone, even beginners, doing work for free gives the impression that design work is something people just do for thrill of it. This is an unhealthy impression to make of an industry. If people think we're willing to work for free, or penuts, we lose money. We lose work.

Asking students to do work for free is dispicable. Some students dont' realize the harm they do to the entire industry when they do these freeby jobs.

Students: you are worth it. Get paid for your work. Never work for free, unless its for a non-profit, and you have a big heart. Never let someone make a buck off your work, without getting a peice.

[EnVoy]

anyone, even beginners, doing work for free gives the impression that design work is something people just do for thrill of it. This is an unhealthy impression to make of an industry. If people think we're willing to work for free, or penuts, we lose money. We lose work.

Asking students to do work for free is dispicable. Some students dont' realize the harm they do to the entire industry when they do these freeby jobs.

Students: you are worth it. Get paid for your work. Never work for free, unless its for a non-profit, and you have a big heart. Never let someone make a buck off your work, without getting a peice.

Bravo!

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
anyone, even beginners, doing work for free gives the impression that design work is something people just do for thrill of it. This is an unhealthy impression to make of an industry. If people think we're willing to work for free, or penuts, we lose money. We lose work.

Asking students to do work for free is dispicable. Some students dont' realize the harm they do to the entire industry when they do these freeby jobs.

Students: you are worth it. Get paid for your work. Never work for free, unless its for a non-profit, and you have a big heart. Never let someone make a buck off your work, without getting a peice.

i guess i should stop helping other people with html, css, asp, cgi, javascript, databases, printing, video editing, problems with their computers, setting up email for people, or anything for that matter. not sure why you are making it seem that this is such a big deal for designers. i help people out whenever i can, and i make money where i can too. different situations i do different things.

the one thing i know for a fact, before i were to pay for any graphic design at all, i would have to see quality worth paying for. that would mean going to actual business and having it done. and like i said, my site is maintained for the love of it and i am not profitting from it. if i didn't have to spend so much money on something i require at the present (a 3 chip video camera), i could maybe then spend the money on a simple logo.

but just asking in these forums was just asking if anyone was down with helping. i didn't see anyones portfolio work or even ask about past work, which would be required if i were to pay for something from someone i have seen absolutely nothing from ever.

[teszeract]

As a designer who has been in the business since '83, I think I'd like to chip in. Someone's comment earlier on about designers being "way too nice" is odd. That Art_Director does not speak for all designers.

I'm on holiday right now, but when I get back to work monday, I'll drop something in just because I like to design - and sometimes when I feel like it, I'll give it away. For free. Because I won't starve if I do. Because I like being "nice". Because its like excercise for me. Because I have friends who do the same for me. Maybe because its reciprocal, maybe its not.

[teszeract]

Oh, one more thing. The image in your sig for ClubMedia is nice as it is - is that the final?

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by teszeract:
As a designer who has been in the business since '83, I think I'd like to chip in. Someone's comment earlier on about designers being "way too nice" is odd. That Art_Director does not speak for all designers.

I'm on holiday right now, but when I get back to work monday, I'll drop something in just because I like to design - and sometimes when I feel like it, I'll give it away. For free. Because I won't starve if I do. Because I like being "nice". Because its like excercise for me. Because I have friends who do the same for me. Maybe because its reciprocal, maybe its not.

cool thats what i was askin for. designer's that were willing to help for the love of it. in the post asking about the clubmedia sig, were you talkin about the logo i have up now, or my actual signature at the bottom of this? i put together the logo i have up there now, its the colors, and all that i want, i just don't care for it much. maybe i will get some time to work some more on it this weekend too.

[DesignerTerp]

Originally posted by teszeract:
As a designer who has been in the business since '83, I think I'd like to chip in. Someone's comment earlier on about designers being "way too nice" is odd. That Art_Director does not speak for all designers.

I'm on holiday right now, but when I get back to work monday, I'll drop something in just because I like to design - and sometimes when I feel like it, I'll give it away. For free. Because I won't starve if I do. Because I like being "nice". Because its like excercise for me. Because I have friends who do the same for me. Maybe because its reciprocal, maybe its not.

Exactly. Very well said. I just finished a website for the spa my best friend works for. Did I get paid for it? No. But I am getting $400 worth of spa treatments for my time, which is fine with me. They are just starting out and I wanted some web experience (I am a print designer by trade).

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by DesignerTerp:
Exactly. Very well said. I just finished a website for the spa my best friend works for. Did I get paid for it? No. But I am getting $400 worth of spa treatments for my time, which is fine with me. They are just starting out and I wanted some web experience (I am a print designer by trade).

i love design but i consider myself a limited designer. i know code, feel design, but never feel good about the design i implement with my code. my design is usually completely different, and not easily put to work with my coding abilities. and i don't like cheating with fireworks or whatever program does looks for you. that is why most all my stuff i consider the best of my ability, never gets put into real world situtations.

i love designing, but i realized way back that i am not a designer that produces for the everyday user. my present logo displays just that.

i thank all you guys for your help, and would love to see anything you may want to submit. ideas create ideas that create even more ideas. thats a good thing in my eyes. i love seeing any and all possibilites others make

[cowerd]

Exactly. Very well said. I just finished a website for the spa my best friend works for. Did I get paid for it? No. But I am getting $400 worth of spa treatments for my time, which is fine with me. They are just starting out and I wanted some web experience (I am a print designer by trade).

Doing some special rate work for a best friend is not the same as someone soliciting free deisgn on a webboard.

'm on holiday right now, but when I get back to work monday, I'll drop something in just because I like to design - and sometimes when I feel like it, I'll give it away. For free. Because I won't starve if I do. Because I like being "nice". Because its like excercise for me. Because I have friends who do the same for me. Maybe because its reciprocal, maybe its not.

You have a paying job. Enough said.

And kulverse, underbidding a job is not giving away work, it is in many cases a very startegic business decision.

mixin, if this is your own personal site, then do the logo yourself. simple as that. if you want professional design, even if done by a student then cough it up--either in barter (you claim toknow css, html etc) or bucks.

[philzilla]

i won't make a logo for you because you're a jerk

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by philzilla:
i won't make a logo for you because you're a jerk

don't be such a puss all the time.

[daimoni]

.

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by daimoni:
I can't believe it took so long for someone to say that.

i can't believe you posted pics of culture club

[daimoni]

.

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Yes, I really want to hurt you / Yes, I really want to make you cry.

that was actually funny! hehe

[art_director]

Originally posted by teszeract:
As a designer who has been in the business since '83, I think I'd like to chip in. Someone's comment earlier on about designers being "way too nice" is odd. That Art_Director does not speak for all designers.

if you've been in the biz since '83 you should have a better grasp. giving away design for sake of "being nice" or "because it's exercise" means you're:

a. a talentless hack
b. a complete fookin' moron

when it comes to friends or public service i can understand this rationale. but to do it for anyone who posts on a users forum is the stupidest fookin' thing i think i've ever heard. you're a disgrace to the industry and i do not have enough nasty things to say to you.

[philzilla]

nice mini-rant! you should sign up at 'bbq, do a whole lot more of that stuff

[kulverse]

While I will not do a design for this...I will offer some advise cause it's irking me.(even if it does make me a talentless hack, and a complete moron):

The Copperplate font isn't working for ya. And the color scheme is being way over-used these days. Yes...please stay away from the >> characters. I think they were used in every web design made in the late 90's

Just my opinion...the site/logo looks decent, but unoriginal...sorry

Edit: named wrong font. I always get those mixed up for some reason

[mixin visuals]

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=151340

[aprilcarter]

I just want to say, for the record, that I would be happy to "help" with the clubmedia logo. Of course, I'm sure you're willing to "help" with my $100/hr fee, right?

I agree with the guys who say what you're doing is improper. You know what? I have friends who are doctors and lawyers, and they'll tell you I've never gone to them asking for legal advice or to figure out what that weird rash on my behind was... because it's unprofessional. They make their livings dispensing their expertise, and so do we.

April M. Carter

[aprilcarter]

Aw, what the hell. Here's some free advice: don't use Copperplate for your logo.

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by aprilcarter:
I just want to say, for the record, that I would be happy to "help" with the clubmedia logo. Of course, I'm sure you're willing to "help" with my $100/hr fee, right?

I agree with the guys who say what you're doing is improper. You know what? I have friends who are doctors and lawyers, and they'll tell you I've never gone to them asking for legal advice or to figure out what that weird rash on my behind was... because it's unprofessional. They make their livings dispensing their expertise, and so do we.

April M. Carter

and so do i, but my site is not a cash cow, or producing at all. its just a hobby, and wanted to see if anyone had any skills to spare

[cowerd]

If its just a hobby then do it yourself. If you're so vain that you must have a beautiful website, then buy a freaking book on website design and learn to do it yourself. This begging for professional services is pathetic.

[ultra-V]

Personally, I see both sides, but agree that it only does harm for a professional designer to offer up free services. Our services *are* worth money, and on top of that should provide value for our clients - in the end, our clients tend to get more in real benefits from improved design than they invested. You gotta spend money to make money.

Sure, there are people willing to pitch in for free. I've had projects where I had no budget for models in photos, so I'll get my friends. But I know better than to ask professional models to do it for free. As I see it, the only people who can afford to provide design for free are students (who need to build up a portfolio of "real" projects - and who for some reason are willing to take unpaid internships for an entire summer) and non-designers just trying to see if they can do it. That said, I don't think those designers who do waste their time on small free projects for someone's little hobby site are going to bring down the whole system. All I have to say to those trying to get it for free is: You get what you pay for (or don't pay for as the case may be).

Which brings me to the copperplate. Copperplate isn't just wrong because it is overused. It was originally designed for use on high society stationery, and is now used to evoke (as the name implies) fine engraving and old-world printing processes. Not exactly appropriate for a news site about computers.

That's my three cents.

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by cowerd:
If its just a hobby then do it yourself. If you're so vain that you must have a beautiful website, then buy a freaking book on website design and learn to do it yourself. This begging for professional services is pathetic.

i was asking not begging. i know html too thanks for asking.

about the copperplate, i got bored going through fonts and needed sleep so i just stayed with the last one i had stopped on. i was too tired and have been way to busy to do much of anything lately.

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:
i was asking not begging. i know html too thanks for asking.

Knowing HTML is a far cry from knowing web design. I'm not saying you're can't design, I'm just saying they're not the same thing.

And your tone is surprisingly flippant considering the fact you're relying on the generosity of others for your "help."


I also wanted to note that helping someone with their javascript or CSS is more like helping someone figure out alpha channels or giving someone a suggestion on how to further develop a concept or fix a graphic.

What you're asking is more along the lines of designing, and coding a basic site for someone for free.

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
Knowing HTML is a far cry from knowing web design. I'm not saying you're can't design, I'm just saying they're not the same thing.

And your tone is surprisingly flippant considering the fact you're relying on the generosity of others for your "help."


I also wanted to note that helping someone with their javascript or CSS is more like helping someone figure out alpha channels or giving someone a suggestion on how to further develop a concept or fix a graphic.

What you're asking is more along the lines of designing, and coding a basic site for someone for free.

no. i was asking for help with a simple logo or font recommendation

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:
hehe you guys are crazy. i am kind of looking for something with light or med grey and the #cc0000 red that i just on the site

It looks to me like you had your ideas in place and you're wanting someone to execute it for you.

Also, there is no such thing as a simple logo. Logo design is one of the most challenging tasks for a designer. It requires a lot of thought, research, and it has to conform to really strict guidelines in regards to color, size, whatever. The best you can hope for in a "simple logo" is a typographic treatment, which looks like you already have.

Why is this discussion continuing?

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
It looks to me like you had your ideas in place and you're wanting someone to execute it for you.

Also, there is no such thing as a simple logo. Logo design is one of the most challenging tasks for a designer. It requires a lot of thought, research, and it has to conform to really strict guidelines in regards to color, size, whatever. The best you can hope for in a "simple logo" is a typographic treatment, which looks like you already have.

Why is this discussion continuing?

because you added your 2 cents and then i did, and others have. its called a forum

[israces]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
anyone, even beginners, doing work for free gives the impression that design work is something people just do for thrill of it. This is an unhealthy impression to make of an industry. If people think we're willing to work for free, or penuts, we lose money. We lose work.

Asking students to do work for free is dispicable. Some students dont' realize the harm they do to the entire industry when they do these freeby jobs.

Students: you are worth it. Get paid for your work. Never work for free, unless its for a non-profit, and you have a big heart. Never let someone make a buck off your work, without getting a peice.

This thread is great!!

Anyway, I've been doing all I can to avoid jumping in mid-stream, but....

A designer producing the above "It's all about the Benjamins" rant is hilarious. Harm the entire industry? My job *requires* that I do a certain amount of work for free every year.

[art_director]

Originally posted by israces:
This thread is great!!

Anyway, I've been doing all I can to avoid jumping in mid-stream, but....

A designer producing the above "It's all about the Benjamins" rant is hilarious. Harm the entire industry? My job *requires* that I do a certain amount of work for free every year.

your job requires that you do free work? that affords just three possibilities:

1. you are a sucker
2. your boss is a sucker
3. you're both suckers

no job should *require* that you do free work. that's not a job. that's philanthropy.

[israces]

Originally posted by art_director:
your job requires that you do free work? that affords just three possibilities:

1. you are a sucker
2. your boss is a sucker
3. you're both suckers

no job should *require* that you do free work. that's not a job. that's philanthropy.

Yeah...you really got me there.

Try this idea out: Karma.

In my experience, the free work almost always leads to enough paying work to more than cover the freebie. I mean, even street level pushers know that you get more repeat business when the first one is free. That is if your stuff is any good.

I guess if someone was an insecure no-talent hack then I could see how that person would be really reluctant to show his skills for free lest any potential future client discover how bad it is before already being separated from his money. I could see how that could color someone's opinion about always needing to get paid for everything he does. I could also see how that person would also encourage others (especially the new and innovative people in the field, like students for example) to not put any of their work forward lest potential clients be impressed by the raw talent displayed and give their paying business to that other person instead of to the guy who has always made them pay for every little thing because he is oh so established (as proven by his large fees and refusal to do any free work) and therefore a true professional and keeper of the integrity of the design industry. I guess I could see that.

[mixin visuals]

Originally posted by israces:
Yeah...you really got me there.

Try this idea out: Karma.

In my experience, the free work almost always leads to enough paying work to more than cover the freebie. I mean, even street level pushers know that you get more repeat business when the first one is free. That is if your stuff is any good.

I guess if someone was an insecure no-talent hack then I could see how that person would be really reluctant to show his skills for free lest any potential future client discover how bad it is before already being separated from his money. I could see how that could color someone's opinion about always needing to get paid for everything he does. I could also see how that person would also encourage others (especially the new and innovative people in the field, like students for example) to not put any of their work forward lest potential clients be impressed by the raw talent displayed and give their paying business to that other person instead of to the guy who has always made them pay for every little thing because he is oh so established (as proven by his large fees and refusal to do any free work) and therefore a true professional and keeper of the integrity of the design industry. I guess I could see that.

well said!

[designbc]

No, not well said.
I personally tried that tactic in my very first years in the field, and there are always the leaches that make you work for free and then you never see them again. A customer has to know that you are a professional, and respect your work, even if you are a beginner. The more you respect yourself, the more they will do.
And mixing visuals, in this forum everyone is willing to help. But I mean HELP. You have an idea, you show it and we make suggestions, changes, recommendations, etc. There is plenty of samples of that kind of help.If that is what you were asking for, then I'll gladly help. But design a logo for free? Would you build a website for free, leaving aside all your duties and your real work? I don't think so. And even if you do it (and I've done it), the quality is not gonna be the same. You won't spend all the time required to do it. Then again: You get what you pay for.

And israces:
If you do free work because you want to, I agree with art_director. If your boss makes you do it, then you are really f*cked up. Sorry you can't find a decent job where you get paid for everyhting you do.

[art_director]

Originally posted by designbc:
No, not well said.
I personally tried that tactic in my very first years in the field, and there are always the leaches that make you work for free and then you never see them again. A customer has to know that you are a professional, and respect your work, even if you are a beginner. The more you respect yourself, the more they will do.
And mixing visuals, in this forum everyone is willing to help. But I mean HELP. You have an idea, you show it and we make suggestions, changes, recommendations, etc. There is plenty of samples of that kind of help.If that is what you were asking for, then I'll gladly help. But design a logo for free? Would you build a website for free, leaving aside all your duties and your real work? I don't think so. And even if you do it (and I've done it), the quality is not gonna be the same. You won't spend all the time required to do it. Then again: You get what you pay for.

And israces:
If you do free work because you want to, I agree with art_director. If your boss makes you do it, then you are really f*cked up. Sorry you can't find a decent job where you get paid for everyhting you do.

designbc: hoots, hollars and steady applause go out to you.

today i'm going to try my hand at this free work notion. you see, i have a general contractor coming over to give me the subs' estimates on my house remodeling job. i'll see if they'll work for free. heck, while i'm at it, i'm going to ask for free lumber, windows, tile, fixtures, framing, sheetrock, excavation, plumbing, electrical, hvac, and roofing. woohooo, if they're related to the philanthropists on this thread i'm going save tens of thousands.

translation: giving away work is bad business whether it's in design, building, auto maintenance, etc. the difference with design is that the culture of "art" causes many designers / art directors to be caught in the headlights like deer and give away their product. it makes no sense unless it's for a friend / family member or for a non-profit. anyone who urges students to do so is a poor business person.

this is business. business. business. business. business. one more time: business.

[israces]

Originally posted by art_director:


today i'm going to try my hand at this free work notion. you see, i have a general contractor coming over to give me the subs' estimates on my house remodeling job. i'll see if they'll work for free. heck, while i'm at it, i'm going to ask for free lumber, windows, tile, fixtures, framing, sheetrock, excavation, plumbing, electrical, hvac, and roofing. woohooo, if they're related to the philanthropists on this thread i'm going save tens of thousands.

Um... ever hear of Habitat for Humanity? If that is what you were getting then, yeah, you'd ask exactly that and they'd all work for free and most of the supplies would be donated. And yes, you would save tens of thousands and that would be the exact point.

But for the sake of continuing discussion on the broader topic:

I think you're going a little bit off the reservation here and maybe I was not clear enough in my last post. I should have clarified what we were talking about a little better. What I thought we were referring to was mainly knowledge, skill, and time. Creating a logo, for example, involves knowledge, skill, and time. (Let it slide, I know there can be more involved than that, but just for the sake of this post I'm going to leave it at that, generally). I get paid solely for what I know, how well I apply what I know to the situation, and the time it takes me to do the above. Hacking out something akin to a free sketch of an idea for some guy on a mac message board is not going to cut into my bottom line at all. Also, generally, there is a decided lack of tangible commodity until the very end. I would not characterize my
rough work that I threw up on a message board to be my true "product." Although, in some cases from the outside it would appear to be the same. I just don't consider it that way, personally.

In the quote above, things like sheetrock and lumber and tile are listed. Tangible commodities with a market determined universal price for the most part. I don't think this addresses the point I was trying to make. Perhaps if examples such as stain choice for the wood, a redesign of the front landscaping, change in grade of the rear elevation, etc. were used, I'd find them more to the point. Ask your general what he thinks about using a different brand of water heater or of changing the final grade or something that only involves his knowledge, skill, and time and see if he says, "That'll be an extra $500.00 before I'll answer your question and I'll never suggest anything beyond exactly what you asked for because that would call on my knowledge, skill, and time and I *always* get paid for that" If he's any good I'm guessing he'll bs with you about it and give you some "free product." In my experience, that's what people who are comfortable in their skills and who are successful in their chosen field do. That is business.

back to art_director

anyone who urges students to do so is a poor business person.

I guess I'd better go tell all those interns that they ought to quit today then. I mean, they're just *giving* away their work. That'll never pay off for them later.

[EnVoy]

Um... ever hear of Habitat for Humanity? If that is what you were getting then, yeah, you'd ask exactly that and they'd all work for free and most of the supplies would be donated. And yes, you would save tens of thousands and that would be the exact point.

The recipient of the house is required to help build it, there by "paying" in knowledge, skill, and time. The companies that donate free materials are actually being paid for it, in tax write-offs, and free advertising.

What I thought we were referring to was mainly knowledge, skill, and time ... Creating a logo, for example, involves knowledge, skill, and time. I get paid solely for what I know, how well I apply what I know to the situation, and the time it takes me to do the above. ... Also, generally, there is a decided lack of tangible commodity until the very end. I would not characterize my rough work that I threw up on a message board to be my true "product."

The knowledge, skill, time, and final product are one package, and is what clients hire you for. You can't have one without the other. If you have knowledge, skill, and time, but can't produce a tangible product, you will not get hired (or will be fired). If you produce a product without knowledge, skill, and time, it will show, and you will be fired (or not get hired).

Hacking out something akin to a free sketch of an idea for some guy on a mac message board is not going to cut into my bottom line at all.

Have you looked at the site? If you consider mixin visuals site to be "for fun" as he says, than by all means help him out if you like. When I look at the site, I see products for sale, banner ads from profit generating sites, and links to for profit sites. mixin visuals even says, quote: my site currently isn't producing an income... CURRENTLY to me says he expects to generate profit. If a coach from a NFL team approached an athlete and said: "We want you to be on our team, to use you knowlege, skills, and time. Our team is just for fun, though, so we want you to do it for free". We all know what the player would do, he would turn around and walk away. If he did take the offer, and play for free, than this would set a dangerous pressident. Other teams would ask for their players to work for free, and the value of football players potential income would start decreasing.

Ask your general what he thinks about using a different brand of water heater or of changing the final grade or something that only involves his knowledge, skill, and time and see if he says, "That'll be an extra $500.00 before I'll answer your question and I'll never suggest anything beyond exactly what you asked for because that would call on my knowledge, skill, and time and I *always* get paid for that"

This general is being paid for his time, skill, and knowledge. He marks up everyone of those materials from what he paid for it. This is your fee for using his time in getting the materials, his skill in installing them,and his knowledge about water heaters and final grades.

I guess I'd better go tell all those interns that they ought to quit today then. I mean, they're just *giving* away their work. That'll never pay off for them later.

They are being paid, by you teaching them your knowledge and skill, and giving them the time to generate experience on the job. This will pay off for them later.

[designbc]

The same thing that happens if I want to use a royalty free image I didn't pay for.

[cowerd]

I guess I'd better go tell all those interns that they ought to quit today then. I mean, they're just *giving* away their work. That'll never pay off for them later.

We pay our interns. Its the only decent thing to do.

[sethwrks]

mixin visuals-- I am a graphics professional and I'll help you out
for nothing more than a 120x60 link on your site.
-sethwrks-


The rest of you are a digrace to the industry, how much work have I done for free, to help me get where I am, and given me the reputation that I have now.

-without the passing of knowledge, we lose our future and our past-

[kulverse]

Originally posted by sethwrks:
mixin visuals-- I am a graphics professional and I'll help you out
for nothing more than a 120x60 link on your site.
-sethwrks-


The rest of you are a digrace to the industry, how much work have I done for free, to help me get where I am, and given me the reputation that I have now.

-without the passing of knowledge, we lose our future and our past-

what he said

[art_director]

israces:

you're not a very good reader, are you? go back, read my post, pay close attention to the part where i said when i believe doing free work is warranted. then come back and apologize for your ridiculous habitat for humanity rant.

as for the building materials costs...here's a link to the definition of the word sarcasm:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm

about interns...that is not the same as doing a free logo for a guy who just asked on a macnn forum. as someone else pointed out he intends to make money, hence the banners onhis site. he has clearly stated that he has not been profitable to date. he did not dispute that he *hopes* to be profitable one day. if you were to go back in the thread you would see that i asked if he intended to pay the kind soul(s) who help him once he makes a little jing. as i recall he never said he would.

oh yeah, interns...that's different. they are working with and for professionals in the field to secure experience and knowledge. that is a differenmt arrangement. btw, it's illegal to have interns and not pay them at all. they must get minimum wage. i would add that they often get free use of computers, printers (including color = good for free portfolio building), scanners, stock books, award annuals, etc., etc., etc.

my point? your comparing interns is absurd.

[art_director]

Originally posted by sethwrks:
The rest of you are a digrace to the industry, how much work have I done for free, to help me get where I am, and given me the reputation that I have now.

lmfao...

we're a disgrace to the industry because we're against giving work away for free???

rlmfao...

to get where you are and to get the reputation you have? if you're still doing work for free you can't be too far and must not have much of a reputation.

UNLESS you're referring to helping non-profits and friends / family you are a philanthropist, not a business person.

[art_director]

Originally posted by art_director:
lmfao...

we're a disgrace to the industry because we're against giving work away for free???

rlmfao...

to get where you are and to get the reputation you have? if you're still doing work for free you can't be too far and must not have much of a reputation.

UNLESS you're referring to helping non-profits and friends / family you are a philanthropist, not a business person.

let me correct myself. occasionally there is a creative opportunity that could get you into an award show. that can sometimes be a reward in and of itself. unfortunately businesses are onto this and they take advantage of it.

this mixin visuals thing isnot one of those opportunities so far as i can tell.

[art_director]

let me add another place where i believe working for free is acceptable.

trades.

by this i mean work for a photographer in trade for shooting a probono campaign for you.

many, many times i've done work for commercial directors in trade for a free tv shoot for one of my low budget, probono concepts. the same for photography, illustration, music, colorist, flame work, editing, retouching, scanning, outputs, color correction, styling, food styling, etc. etc. etc. technically such cases are not free because there's a barter involved but no cash switches hands so i bring it up.

oh, let me add another one: the contractor for my remodeling job i'm about to do. i did a brand id including his logo, letterhead, biz cards, envelops, signs and will eventually do ads. in return i get $XX,XXX worth of his time and expertise. will money exchange hands? no, but i get my due.

hey, one more: my legal work. i have a top-notch lawyer doing my LLC filing in trade for her husband's corp i.d.

finally, i will tell you that all of the above were award show opportunities. some were in international award shows and local competitions. that gives me a dual benefit which, can at times, be better than cash. but don't mistake it for working for free. it isn't.

and, to captain "how i got where i am and got the reputation i have" the above did the same for me but i got something for it. in fact, i got a lot for it.

[sethwrks]

As far as being disgraces-you are, not for being against free work, but, for RIPPING on someone for asking,
Not to mention those who were willing to do it.

As far as my, rep/how I got here, is concerned,
I cant count on my hands and toes anymore, how many times I met someone "on the street" , told them what I do, and say "sure, I'll whip somethin up for ya" and have them come back with $$$$$$$$ in hand.

I hate the analogy someone used earlier about "the drug dealer who gives away free samples" but that is a serious marketing FACT.

no, I dont do everything for free, we're all smarter than that, but a little foresite and good "customer service" goes a long, long way.


-one foot in the door is better than looking in the window-

[godzookie2k]

israces: I think you are understating what it is that we (you) do. A logo isn't only knowledge, skill and time. It *is* the product. We sell our designs, that is our product. It is fully tangeble. The contracter may say "yes blank kind of water heater would provide more savings in the long run because..." for free. Just as if someone asked me in the bar or something, "nick, I have a trifold mailer going out and my designer is telling me that I can only fit fifteen on a sheet, is this true?" When I know for a fact that twenty can fit on the sheet and it sounds like the designer is trying to gang a job on, of course I will say "no, 20 can fit on a sheet for sure" for free.
The contractor, much like myself won't say "yeah blank is better and here let me give it to you on the house" Asking for an opinion requires knowledge, skill and time. Delivering a product requires all that, *and* the product. The product is what the client is paying for. If you had a contractor come in to completely renovate your house at the lump sum of half a million dollars, do you think he would throw the taps on the sink in for free? No, because they are a product that costs money. Just like the logo.

Imho, free work for nonprofits with a cause you believe in is ok. free work for friends and family is ok. Free work initially for something that will make money with a contract that says in the event of a profit being made you will be paid is ok.

Free work for commercial ventures is not ok.

Mixins site has banners and as a result, Mixin's site makes money. It may be pennies that are spent on hosting, but it is still making money. Mixin didn't promise payment if the site makes significan profit later either. (which it is obvious he is trying to accomplish) and so, Mixin is trying to milk a talent pool that is obviously foolish enough (or ignorant enough) to contribute.

Part of this is Mixin's fault for intentionally(or inadvertantly) trying to tap a creative source for free.

Part of this is this forum's fault for contributing for free.

In reality, its not a matter of fault. Its just a practice that needs to stop. It hurts business for everyone in the long run. Doing work for free and getting the publicity from it that leads to future free work may be great for you, but its at the detriment of everyone else. I think that especially in times like these, undercutting and in general shady business practices are a bad way to get what little work there is. Let talent speak for itself, the crap economy is weeding out the hacks from the pros enough as it is, and as a field we really do need to stick together more to ride out this storm, and undercutting, or doing free work to snake work from others is just bad for everyone. If everyone is doing free work to get more work later, it gets to the point where the work later is billed at a way lower rate than it should be and no one gets paid.

Lastly, can we keep the personal shots out of this? I realize its a pretty heated debate, but there is no reason to insult people personally.

[sethwrks]

Remember way back when... before we were businesses looking for every dollar we can find- spending night after long night building our portfolios. Did we get paid for that? Didn't seem like it, but, yes we did. Our ports got us the work we were looking for and we now make our livings. Every piece we do has some benefit, like you (art_director) said, even contest entries have a purpose; and trades, how I love those, I'm an artist, not a writer or accountant, trades are priceless.

Even if doing this logo doesn't have a direct $$ attached to it, it still maintains a value, in my port, where the ability to get clients ultimately comes from.

Alas - its all personal opinion

good luck to all

[godzookie2k]

No, you are not an artist. You are a designer, and you are providing a service for a price. After 'hours' you may do artwork, but your client work is NOT and should not be considered art. It should be sold as a product, not as artwork, because it IS a product, not art.


(but this is a whole other discussion altogether)