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art_director · May 1, 2003, 10:44 PM

godzookie:
thank you for maintaining your usual high level of objectivity and professionalism. you have made valid points and enriched this debate. thank you.

seth:
while we may have locked horns i admire your dedication and the fact that you stand by what you believe. also, to zookie's point, i apologize for my personal stabs. guess my passion got the better of me.

zookie made one outstanding point wrt to the economy and how we need to be a community. we need to stand with our guns drawn and our backs together to prevent the MBAs from stealing every last cent from us. just needed to point that out because the zook could not have been more right on that note.

israces · May 2, 2003, 06:41 AM

This is going to be all disjointed, but here:

EnVoy--I don't want to speak for you, but I think you and I are in agreement on this. Aside from the tax issues, I absolutely agree that a side-effect of a professional builder working on a Habitat project is definitely the intangibles that are associated with it. Free advertising, maybe a lead on a new project, referrals, and, although not ideal for the eventual home owner, real-world practice and experience for the builders. Also, I agree with the rest of your post about payment in other forms than positive cash income, but I was responding to comments solely about payment in money.

The "street level pusher" was tongue-in-cheek. It was intended to be short-hand for the idea that I think got across.

Interns comment--pure sarcasm. I know they get paid (barely) and believe me I know how much the experience will pay off later.

godzookie2k -- We are on the same page. In my discussion, I'm not so much concerned with the exact issue at hand as I am with the general idea presented that business requires *always* needing to get paid for everything.

Bottom line: I think freebies are more beneficial than detrimental in the majority of cases where one would consider doing free work. My opinion.

israces · May 2, 2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
No, you are not an artist. You are a designer, and you are providing a service for a price. After 'hours' you may do artwork, but your client work is NOT and should not be considered art. It should be sold as a product, not as artwork, because it IS a product, not art.

(but this is a whole other discussion altogether)

see my sig for my opinion on this!!

israces · May 2, 2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by art_director:
israces:

you're not a very good reader, are you? go back, read my post, pay close attention to the part where i said when i believe doing free work is warranted. then come back and apologize for your ridiculous habitat for humanity rant.

In light of your last post and the detriment continuing personal barbs generally cause to otherwise worthwhile threads, I'm going to take the above as venting and leave it at that.

Witty responses to sarcasm probably don't come across so well in postings.

(sorry for 3 posts in a row)

designbc · May 2, 2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
No, you are not an artist. You are a designer, and you are providing a service for a price. After 'hours' you may do artwork, but your client work is NOT and should not be considered art. It should be sold as a product, not as artwork, because it IS a product, not art.

(but this is a whole other discussion altogether)

You know what goodzookie? You are totally RIGHT. (I think is't the first time I tell you this after all our differences regarding Quark).

art_director · May 2, 2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by israces:
In light of your last post and the detriment continuing personal barbs generally cause to otherwise worthwhile threads, I'm going to take the above as venting and leave it at that.

Witty responses to sarcasm probably don't come across so well in postings.

(sorry for 3 posts in a row)

you cannot even recognize an olive branch when it's placed before you.

as for freebies, go ahead, give away the ranch. in the end you will screw yourself.

andi*pandi · May 2, 2003, 11:48 AM

godzookie for president! Hearhear! (here here?)

Just a note of advice to any of those thinking doing free trade will net you more trade. I've done free work for non-profits, hoping to lure them in to do other paying work, network, pad my portfolio, or get referrals. All of these things were suggested by trade mags etc as ways to get started in freelancing, building business, etc. Got nothin out of it except some satisfaction out of helping. In general, they were more difficult than other clients, mostly because they had no COST RESTRAINTS to reign them in from making ridiculous revisions, and I didn't feel I had as much respect as someone they might have paid.

Sorry to say, but RESPECT = COST to some people.

Same thing goes in my book for undercutting your price just to get your foot in the door. Always backfires.

art_director · May 2, 2003, 12:34 PM

andi*pandi hit the nail on the head.

a couple months ago i did a few pieces for a non-profit aiming to cure breast cancer. the client, a retired honeywell exec, tried to play me. she wasted days of my time and i got *nothing* for the effort. no portfolio piece, no contacts, no cash and, in the end, no satisfaction because she micromanaged the living shiit out of the work. one day i had it and just showed up at her office to hand off a disk. she was dazed and confused to learn that i fired her. to date she still has not run any ads, has not put up a sign in front of her business, has not put up any posters -- all of the things we discussed.

translation: she was trying to work me.

non-profits are often very disorganized. it's common for them to lack focus and to try pleasing everyone. more often than not i fire those clients before i lose too much cash.

godzookie2k · May 2, 2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by art_director:
let me add another place where i believe working for free is acceptable.

trades.

hey, one more: my legal work. i have a top-notch lawyer doing my LLC filing in trade for her husband's corp i.d.

oh yes yes! I forgot about those. Trades are great. I've done quite a few business cards and web stuff on the back end for some of my illustrator buddies (of which I think I have way too many) in exchange for a spot illustration here, a painting for my wall there, etc. Trades are great. Legal is another good one, i haven't had the oppurtunity to take advantage of this situation yet, but I've been keeping myself out of trouble lately.

*shoves dead body a bit deeper into freezer*

mixin visuals · May 2, 2003, 11:12 PM

i have no problem with trades at all and that was to be expected from the gate. if i had one serious person that wanted to help, that would have been the first responded email, what can i do for you now. i am not a freeloader like that and wouldn't feel right in the first place taking without offering whatever help i may be able to provide back.

kulverse · May 2, 2003, 11:17 PM

Well. I did a few free things for friends and friends of friends back in the day. It made me money in the long run and I dont regret it. They made great portfolio pieces. Portfolio pieces that got a few jobs in the graphics world.

Now I'm making money playing with Photoshop, and My Freelance is kicking ass as well.

No point to this really....Just sayin'... Experiences vary I guess.

mixin visuals · May 2, 2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by kulverse:
Well. I did a few free things for friends and friends of friends back in the day. It made me money in the long run and I dont regret it. They made great portfolio pieces. Portfolio pieces that got a few jobs in the graphics world.

Now I'm making money playing with Photoshop, and My Freelance is kicking ass as well.

No point to this really....Just sayin'... Experiences vary I guess.

i hear you. i love all things multimedia. i make my money and thats great. but i am also the guy that will help whenever i can, usually just for the love of creating.

i know business is business, but thats not my reason for my computer. i love knowledge, and with every single website i make, video i edit, event that i shoot, animation i create, i learn and become something better than i was before. i just like that alone. the rest is really a bonus over that.

don't get me wrong, i work to make money, but i have done countless jobs helping others. if for nothing else to help show what mac's are and what you can do with them. i have probably converted at least 20 pc users to macs from just helping make stuff for others. i love it. it makes me feel like i am making a difference with apple, even though a small difference

sethwrks · May 3, 2003, 10:48 AM

"if i had one serious person that wanted to help,"

so, after all is said and done...
did you get the help you wanted for your logo?

As for art_director- I dont hold any grudges, boss.

Business is now / always was / always will be, a matter of perspective.
As personal an opinion as the clothes we wear,or the car we drive. And since we are all here, professionals, doing what we love to do, supporting our families, then it only proves that ALL of us are right!

EnVoy · May 6, 2003, 01:08 PM

from designbc

The same thing that happens if I want to use a royalty free image I didn't pay for.

OK, time for a little self-defence here. I'm not sure if designbc is refering to the image in my sig because the link in his post is broken, BUT incase he is: I drew that myself!

If your not refering to my sig, than never mind!

designbc · May 6, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by EnVoy:
from designbc

OK, time for a little self-defence here. I'm not sure if designbc is refering to the image in my sig because the link in his post is broken, BUT incase he is: I drew that myself!

If your not refering to my sig, than never mind!

Oh, no, EnVoy! I wasn't referring to your sig. LOL.

I was just trying to make some fun, but the f*king link is broken. This is the address:
http://www.geocities.com/designbc/clubmedia.gif

mixin visuals · May 7, 2003, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by sethwrks:
"if i had one serious person that wanted to help,"

so, after all is said and done...
did you get the help you wanted for your logo?

As for art_director- I dont hold any grudges, boss.

Business is now / always was / always will be, a matter of perspective.
As personal an opinion as the clothes we wear,or the car we drive. And since we are all here, professionals, doing what we love to do, supporting our families, then it only proves that ALL of us are right!

yeah i had quite a few. some from macnn but many from other sites. and i really liked a lot of them. mad creativity flowin on lots of different levels.

i asked for some help not thinking at all i was going to get something for nothing. my site is full of quality links from every aspect of the mac platform. regardless what the links are in general, they are all links that i feel others can either gain inspiration, difference, attitude, resources, or whatever to aid in design for each and every person that crosses my site's tracks.

i never thought twice about starting this thread to start a conflict at all. i stated what i was looking for, and asked nicely for help. i return at least 20 emails a day from people wanting to be added here or there in my site to help bring more traffic to their site.

my site is a hobby. nothing more. i have yet to make any money from it. i hate the banners on it now, i just put them there hoping to pay for server costs. and the server costs have easily doubled the actual costs of me running the site. i don't care though about that. i have no problem with paying the money to keep clubmedia as a resource for other (i am one of the others too).

i have watched this thread grow from a simple request to designers for help, inspiration, font and then see it get turned into a fight. i hate looking at my site now. but i see it for the good, because i want nothing to do with it looking like it does now, i have a better plan for it, more simplistic and better for all those that come and actually depend on it.

i like that people find a need in the links that i help them find. i spend a lot of time on club and i really appreciate every email i get from peeps that thank me for putting many links that they frequent in one place.

thats why i stated multiple times that this was really a hobby for me. i truely love putting something toghether others can use.

money is the least of my concerns with it.

soul searching · Jun 17, 2004, 06:24 PM

I asked for a free logo for my personal site and this is what I got:

Super Glitcher · Jun 22, 2004, 05:00 AM

yeah that's what you get!!

Super Glitcher · Jun 22, 2004, 05:06 AM

Maybe you guys could use one of those junk emails I get all the time:
PRE MADE CUSTOM LOGO ONLY $49!!!

heh..

This is comparative to hiring slave labor in the philipines or something right?

Maybe soon they start selling premade logo templates on CD at walmart

art_director · Jun 22, 2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Super Glitcher:
Maybe you guys could use one of those junk emails I get all the time:
PRE MADE CUSTOM LOGO ONLY $49!!!

heh..

This is comparative to hiring slave labor in the philipines or something right?

Maybe soon they start selling premade logo templates on CD at walmart

now that's funny.

kaboom · Jun 22, 2004, 12:16 PM

It's funny because it's true.

Super Glitcher · Jun 22, 2004, 12:33 PM

it actually says 'powerful enough for the pro'

I can't believe it says that.... . .. .

budster101 · 11:57 AM

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/sampleguy/CM.swf

gadster · Mar 15, 2005, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by art_director:
non-profits are often very disorganized. it's common for them to lack focus and to try pleasing everyone. more often than not i fire those clients before i lose too much cash.

That's funny. ALL the clients I work with are non-profits. The trick is to totally blow them away. Then you don't get all the revision nonsense. One exception, I have noticed is that environmental NGOs are a complete freakin' NIGHTMARE to deal with, for some reason. Except Greenpeace, they're OK.

art_director · Mar 15, 2005, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by gadster:
That's funny. ALL the clients I work with are non-profits. The trick is to totally blow them away. Then you don't get all the revision nonsense. One exception, I have noticed is that environmental NGOs are a complete freakin' NIGHTMARE to deal with, for some reason. Except Greenpeace, they're OK.

all the clients you work for are non-profits? bummer.

ort888 · Mar 18, 2005, 05:43 PM

I used to work exclusivly for non-profits. The funny thing is, is that they paid a lot better than the corporations I work for now.

A lot of these non-profits get huge grants and donations that are just burning a hole in their pocket. We made 10 times as much profit per man-hour than we do at my current job.

art_director · Mar 19, 2005, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by ort888:
I used to work exclusivly for non-profits. The funny thing is, is that they paid a lot better than the corporations I work for now.

A lot of these non-profits get huge grants and donations that are just burning a hole in their pocket. We made 10 times as much profit per man-hour than we do at my current job.

sounds like time to take a long, hard look at your business plan. you may have drifted off course.