[redcalx]

Hi there,

I'm a graphic designer, and I've been doing it for close to 6 years now, mostly working at companies, as opposed to "for" them.

Recently I've been unemployed and do a little freelance work here and there.

I've been comissioned by a friend of mine (I know him through an old job I used to have, that's it) to do a new identity for his company.

He wants a new logo, envelope design, letterhead design, business card and desk notepaper pads.

Regardless of the print cost, what do you think is a decent price to charge him for it? I don't want to rip him off but I want to be compensated myself.

I was thinking $300 (canadian). Can anyone who has experience with this offer up any advice?

Thanks much,

[art_director]

That's always a good one. I can tell you that $300 is ripping yourself off.

High end designers get $10,000 for a job like that. On the low end they run the spectrum. If you consider to put your heart and soul into it then you NEED more than $300, unless you're a trust fund kid.

IMO you should get at least $3,000 US for the job. For that he should expect multiple options (minimum of 3) and he should get a few round of revisions. Some folks here may disagree but that isn't a high price but you can make a little something for the effort, you know?

[teszeract]

The whole story:

There is a difference between a logo design, logo + stationery design and full-on corporate ID.

Dealing with the last only, delivery should include the design of the logo, designs for the stationery as well as and (and this is where the agencies make their big bucks) a full manual with specifications for the identity. This includes colour specs for spot, process, signage. Font specs. Colour options. Sample layouts for the cards, reports, word docs, powerpoint, clear areas, do's and don'ts, blah blah... and it goes on.

For the big charges, clients in the know would expect you to supply the manual, mockups, the whole nine yards. Hours in the scores. I normally work in the "logo + stationery" league and sometimes with a stripped down manual. Ask around and see if you can get your hands on a CID. It'll be informative.

But it sounds as if the job you're talking about requires a medium level of deilvery. Set yourself an hourly fee (this can be calculated - ask if you're interested) and guesstimate the no of hours you're going to spend. Viola!

[Eyenovation]

Charge what you're worth, and not a penny less. $10,000 jobs are usually kick ass jobs, with usability guides, branding applications, and continued support to implement the new identity into the company.

The grey area here is if you're designing just a logo, or a company's identity because the two are TOTALLY different.

[mitchell_pgh]

Rule #1: DO NOT CHARGE A FLAT FEE!

Rule #2: If asked to design for a flat fee, refer to rule #1!

I don't care what you are doing, I don't care what you charge... but don't work for a flat fee unless you want them to be pissed about your work. I have designed logos for good friends for $15 an hour (USD). I KNOW I was working for almost nothing, but at the same time, I knew that my friend wouldn't keep coming back to me for every tiny little change. It forced them into making decisions.

AKA: Crap or get off the pot

[himself]

Originally posted by redcalx:
...He wants a new logo, envelope design, letterhead design, business card and desk notepaper pads.

Regardless of the print cost, what do you think is a decent price to charge him for it? I don't want to rip him off but I want to be compensated myself.

On thing you should know...

The primary difference between logo/identity design and all of the "other" design projects you may get deals with usage rights.

On a typical design project (a poster, brochure, etc) you usually grant limited usage rights to the client, tailored to the specific uses the client requires. That is pretty much what you're getting paid for. If the same client comes to you later and says they want to use the same design for a usage other than what was specified in your earlier agreement, you can charge them for grant of usage rights again, for the new requested usage.

Now, on to logos...
When you design a logo for a client, the client usually wants and needs full usage and ownership rights. That's fine, but the client should know that they are going to pay for total ownership of your original work, since you will be giving up all rights to your work, and you will no longer recieve any compensation for that work at any point in the future. The client will be showing your work (their identity) as often as they possibly can, in every medium available to them, and likely making a profit off of your design (or at least attempting to make a profit), and you will have no control over how your work is presented. You deserve to be compensated for that.

Price is kinda slippery. It all depends on the the scope of the project, what the client expects/requires, the size of the client's business, and (of course) how many hours you put into the project. Also, an estimate (for yourself) of how much future income you may lose by giving the client full ownership of your work could help, but that will take some extra research. Needless to say, $300.00 is much too low. You may want to cut some slack if you're closely acquanted with your client and the business isn't swimming in funds (budget considerations are always primary), but never sell yourself short, and always explain that design is not cheap.

I keep coming back to this quote from Don King: "Don't shame a man for trying to make an honest living." (or something like that)

Hope this helps, and good luck.

[ultra-V]

Rule #1: DO NOT CHARGE A FLAT FEE!

Rule #2: If asked to design for a flat fee, refer to rule #1!

Complete BS. Yes, billing hourly is a good wqay to go for some jobs, but when a customer asks for an estimate, that's what they want - an estimate for how much it will cost. If you say "I charge $15 per hour" (or 75 or 200, whatever), they don't know the process and how long it will take. They don't want any surprises at the end. Same as when you take your car to the mechanic.

You just need to stipulate exactly what the estimate entails. "Includes at least two design options, with two rounds of changes to chosen design.... Additional changes will be billed at $XX per hour." That way they know what to expect, and what will happen if they go overboard on changes.

It should go without saying that this should all be put in writing.

And yes, $300 is not enough.

[Eyenovation]

Complete BS. Yes, billing hourly is a good wqay to go for some jobs, but when a customer asks for an estimate, that's what they want - an estimate for how much it will cost.

I respectfully disagree. Mechanics know what to quote on things like brake jobs and oil changes because they are homogeneous in nature and the mechanics have performed the job thousands of times. So, they know exactly how long it takes.

Jobs like logos, or any design work for that matter, need to be a little more vague if you ask me. Of course, in your estimate you will want to approximate your hours as close as you can, but I have had nothing but poor experiences with flat rate jobs, as they almost always end up being unprofitable.

[ultra-V]

I respectfully disagree. Mechanics know what to quote on things like brake jobs and oil changes because they are homogeneous in nature and the mechanics have performed the job thousands of times. So, they know exactly how long it takes.

I think I came on a little strong, but I still believe clients feel much more comfortable with an honest estimate. Yes, it means you need to put a fair amount of thought into each estimate, and be as detailed as possible in the proposal. In the end, you should go over hours on some jobs, and under on others. And as soon as a client is making demands that are out of scope you kindly point out that you would be glad to do X, but will need to charge $XX for it because they have exceeded the alloted changes in the estimate. If you're having problems with flat rate estimates, maybe you need to start estimating higher?

Being profitble as a designer is as much dependent on client relationships as billings.

[Eyenovation]

Originally posted by ultra-V:
Being profitble as a designer is as much dependent on client relationships as billings.

I couldn't agree more. I think we're saying the same thing, just in different terms. My only insight is just allowing for THAT one client that feels that 'estimate' is set in stone, or the guy who thinks that flat rate entitles him to millions of revisions and concepts.

As I'm sure you'll agree, the more detailed an estimate is, including the number of revisions, concepts, etc.... the better.

[himself]

Originally posted by ultra-V:
I think I came on a little strong, but I still believe clients feel much more comfortable with an honest estimate. Yes, it means you need to put a fair amount of thought into each estimate, and be as detailed as possible in the proposal. In the end, you should go over hours on some jobs, and under on others. And as soon as a client is making demands that are out of scope you kindly point out that you would be glad to do X, but will need to charge $XX for it because they have exceeded the alloted changes in the estimate. If you're having problems with flat rate estimates, maybe you need to start estimating higher?

Being profitble as a designer is as much dependent on client relationships as billings.

This is the same process a designer would follow with an hourly estimate. Based on past experience, avaliable resources and project scope, a designer can accurately estimate how long a job would take. I would call this an honest estimate. And it isn't neccesary for the client to know a designer's hourly rate (unless they explicitly ask). In effect, it can be considered a "flat rate" that is based on various factors. Besides, an esitmate, by definiton, isn't necessarily fixed. It is an approxiamtion, an estimate. Designers aren't selling tangible products that can be preciscely quantified based on raw materials like other tangible goods. And designers should tell their clients to not expect designers (and the design industry) to operate as such because on the whole, it doesn't.

As you explained earlier, if the client takes the project beyond its original scope (whether your estimate is flat or not), you charge for the additional work or hours. There also seems to be a connotation that the flat rate system is fixed and less flexible. Many clients get the idea that they can get an "all you can eat" deal with a flat rate, and I try to avoid the chance that any confusion would arise in the first place.

Also, the beauty of the hourly system is that a designer can budget an entire month, or year (or more) worth of hours and during the course of that period, you can guage your efficiency and profitability pretty easily. It also lets you see when you aren't bringing in enough work to fill the hours (and thus get paid), or if your hours are too booked and you need to start turning down work.

But hey, what works for one may not work for another.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by ultra-V:
Complete BS. Yes, billing hourly is a good wqay to go for some jobs, but when a customer asks for an estimate, that's what they want - an estimate for how much it will cost. If you say "I charge $15 per hour" (or 75 or 200, whatever), they don't know the process and how long it will take. They don't want any surprises at the end. Same as when you take your car to the mechanic.

You just need to stipulate exactly what the estimate entails. "Includes at least two design options, with two rounds of changes to chosen design.... Additional changes will be billed at $XX per hour." That way they know what to expect, and what will happen if they go overboard on changes.

It should go without saying that this should all be put in writing.

And yes, $300 is not enough.

Ummm... I said that you should charge a hourly rate... and an estimate should be given as to how many hours it should take to all the milestones (Draft One, Draft Two, Final Layout Given, etc.). I just don't want to see him 9 months later still working on the same logo package when he is only going to make 300 off of the deal...

[art_director]

redcalx:

when a company hires you to create an identity for their brand they are paying for your expertise, not your hours. your estimate should cover the time investment (research as well as crafting the identity) but it should also cover your expertise which as value as well.

people who create logos are hacks. people who create brands are professionals. anyone who challenges this statement does not understand the difference and their advice should be ignored.

[art_director]

let me add that you should have money in there for presentation materials. you should be compensated for the foam core your comps are mounted on, the lasers you print and any other mock-up materials. this is how advertising agencies and design shops work.

to give you an idea i charge my clients $13 / 11" x 17" print from a xerox 7700 dn. it's a professional grade printer, not a consumer epson, hp, etc. the comps are not for color matching purposes but they do represent the idea quite well. this printer is the same as many agencies use and is of comparable quality to fierys.

[Eyenovation]

Originally posted by art_director:
To give you an idea i charge my clients $13 / 11" x 17" print from a xerox 7700 dn.

*sigh* Oh how I wish I had clients who opted for traditional concept presentation methods like foam core. There's something NICE about pulling out ideas from your briefcase and watching their eyes light up.

No adays everyone wants concepts sent digitally as PDFs or something. Ehhhhh, oh well, huh.

[art_director]

Originally posted by Eyenovation:
*sigh* Oh how I wish I had clients who opted for traditional concept presentation methods like foam core. There's something NICE about pulling out ideas from your briefcase and watching their eyes light up.

No adays everyone wants concepts sent digitally as PDFs or something. Ehhhhh, oh well, huh.

don't you know it. i prefer being able to present the ideas in person rather than sending them off into the abyss. then there's the added benefit of the mark-up on materials.

[mitchell_pgh]

I don't totally disagree with Art_Director, but at the same time, this topic started around a project for his buddies company and with an estimate of around $300. Art_Director has now changed this into a $3000 project with multiple options and a hand crafted presentation of a identity package.

I think we are talking about two different kinds of projects...

[art_director]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I don't totally disagree with Art_Director, but at the same time, this topic started around a project for his buddies company and with an estimate of around $300. Art_Director has now changed this into a $3000 project with multiple options and a hand crafted presentation of a identity package.

I think we are talking about two different kinds of projects...

regardless of whether it's for his buddy, his mother or his bishop, he should consider the value of the expertise he's providing. in the end he, and he alone, must decide what to charge / trade for the project.

mitchell_pgh: he asked for advice. i gave my professional opinion which comes backed with over a decade of experience. that doesn't mean i turned this into anything, i merely offered my 2¢. kindly refrain from such incendiary comments.

[himself]

Originally posted by art_director:
redcalx:

when a company hires you to create an identity for their brand they are paying for your expertise, not your hours. your estimate should cover the time investment (research as well as crafting the identity) but it should also cover your expertise which as value as well.

I agree, most clients do choose their designers based on expertise and quality (at least, the "good" clients do; many choose their designers based on lowest price or some factor other than quality), but for a designer, it's hard to quantify quality, or expertise. The client doesn't need to know how the designer comes up with his/her fee, but behind the curtains, the designer needs a system that allows them to accurately and efficiently quantify their skill, time, and value. For my purposes, I have found no method of doing this that works better than putting a price on the time spent on any given project. If people really start to like your work, and you are in demand, your time becomes a lot more precious.

let me add that you should have money in there for presentation materials. you should be compensated for the foam core your comps are mounted on, the lasers you print and any other mock-up materials. this is how advertising agencies and design shops work.

This can be easily factored into the initial estimate, as you can anticipate the number of presentations for each project phase. Also, in my contracts with my clients, I make sure it is outlined that any "out of pocket" expenses will be charged in addition to the estimate. This could include anything from couriers and overnight mail, to additional requested formats for client presentations.

Fact is, all the information you'll need to know about how to charge for design services and running a profitable studio is out there. It will take some research (and trial and error) to get everything you need to know, but this information will help you keep all of your bases covered in all regards.

[art_director]

the trick is knowing what the market will bare. hours alone may not get you the deserved compensation for the job.

clients who select designers based solely on price are usually not worth the hassle. EVERY time i've compromised my price the cleint has turned out to be a friggin' pain in the arse nitpicking the living daylights out of things and making foolish dictates. now my rule of thumb is that unless i have a compelling reason (ie. great award show opportunity) i do not accept work from this type of client. oh, one other thing, that type rarely pays in a timely fashion.

[mydog8mymac]

You can charge a flat fee for a logo etc... but if you do so, write into the bid that that allows for two or three (you name the number) rounds of changes. If the client wants more, you begin to charge an hourly rate. This helps you out when the client becomes a pain in the @ss. To reach a fair price look at the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook and scale your fees according to your area and the client's type of business.

[OwlBoy]

wow, sometimes I wonder what i have gotten my self into (I am a commercial Art student.)

Though I can't be second guessing my self now... gotta work hard!

-Owl

[Eyenovation]

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
wow, sometimes I wonder what i have gotten my self into (I am a commercial Art student.)

If you're designing for the money, you're in the wrong field. Design because you love to, design from the heart. Then again, that's just my opinion. Obviously you have to make money to live, but I don't know of any RICH designers. Maybe a creative director or two... but it truly is the labor of love.

[cowerd]

I don't know of any RICH designers

You don't get out enough.

[Eyenovation]

Originally posted by cowerd:
You don't get out enough.

Oh, graphic and web designers?
If so who?

[cSurfr]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean about design for the love of it. I am also a design student, and I DO enjoy graphic design. Are you saying that I won't make any money in this industry ? No matter how much you love the job you are doing, you have to eat. How much can I expect to make either 1) starting out, or 2) doing freelance work ?

Thanks,
cS

[Eyenovation]

Originally posted by cSurfr:
Are you saying that I won't make any money in this industry ?

Any money? Of course I am not saying that. I apologize if my comments seemed misleading. What I am saying is that it's unlikely you will get RICH being a graphic/web designer or pull in a lofty six figure income like some business man, doctor, or lawyer.

I think sadly, people are under the assumption that you can be this hotshot designer and perhaps be a millionaire or pseudo celebrity. I would venture to say that even the BEST of the BEST in graphic/web design are no millionaires, UNLESS they own their own large firm, etc. (*meaning there are exceptions to the norm)

I think many people go into business, finance, law, or medical on the premise they will be monetarily successful. I don't think that's usually the catalyst for pursuing design... is it?

I've always been told that if you do what you love, the money will follow. But just how much is debatable. You can live... sure, but I wouldn't go picking out your estate in the Cupertino hills just yet.

[cSurfr]

Originally posted by Eyenovation:
Any

I've always been told that if you do what you love, the money will follow. But just how much is debatable. You can live... sure, but I wouldn't go picking out your estate in the Cupertino hills just yet.

This is certainly true, and I never expected to make millions in the design industy...however I don't want to live like a pauper either. my significant other is a business major so she'll make a lot more money than me, but when she comes home in a bad mood at least i'll be able to say that I enjoy what I do. All things considered, there would be nothing wrong with myself pulling down 70k a year. From what I have read on these forums with "identity pricing" etc, if you work hard and often even a six figure salary shouldn't be too far off.


-cS

[Eyenovation]

Salary Model : Graphic Designer

Get close to 60K, and that'd be pretty damn good.


Another Link:
http://www.justwebjobs.com/JSSalaryS....asp?YEAR=2000