[frownyfrank]

Hey all,

I started building a catalog in Freehand, and after the first page decided it'd be better to finish it in InDesign, if only for my own education. In copying some elements from one to the other, I noticed a dramatic shift in the colors.

In Freehand, the same CMYK values tend to appear brighter than in InDesign, for instance some reds turn orange in InDesign. So I checked the Art Director's Toolkit for a third opinion, and it tends to agree with Freehand.

I remembered a similar problem in Photoshop, so I checked InDesign's color settings. They were set to off, so I set them to US Prepress Defaults. This didn't change the color disparity, though some colors did seem brighter.

So which is to be believed? Sorry if this message reeks of print ignorance, I'm more of a web designer!

[Talk2Angus]

export it to corel from freehand and then export as an rgb file to indesign

[Talk2Angus]

did it work??!

[frownyfrank]

I'm afraid I don't have Corel. But switching to RGB doesn't sound like it would help? Or are you joking?

[Talk2Angus]

Originally posted by frownyfrank:
I'm afraid I don't have Corel. But switching to RGB doesn't sound like it would help? Or are you joking?

That was a joke HA-HA-HA but something serious for ur problem:
Export as an eps then place in InDesign!

Good Luck no jokes this will work!!!!!!

[godzookie2k]

are your indesign color settings in order?

[frownyfrank]

No, I haven't really solved this issue. I talked with the printer, and they seem laissez-faire about the whole thing. I thought they could maybe send me a CMYK profile to work with, but they said leaving my CMYK profile on US web coated would be fine.

I'm not using Freehand anymore for this project, but it still makes me concerned that my chosen colors in InDesign might be off.

So I'm using an ACD calibrated to 1.8 gamma for web work. Should I shift back to 2.2 while I'm working on this, given that the printer will be using Macs as well?

Any ideas? Thanks!

[Talk2Angus]

Originally posted by Talk2Angus:
That was a joke HA-HA-HA but something serious for ur problem:
Export as an eps then place in InDesign!

Good Luck no jokes this will work!!!!!!

HAve u tried this??
I spoke to my Art Director and he agrees with me that the export as an eps will help u with your problem!!!

[art_director]

suicide is the only reason i could see someone designing a brochure in freehand. production folk would undoubtedly kill you for the effort.

[naderby]

Originally posted by art_director:
suicide is the only reason i could see someone designing a brochure in freehand. production folk would undoubtedly kill you for the effort.

Some "design agencies" still use Freehand for this.

Unbelievable.

[bluedog]

When copying and pasting from design applications, there is often a preference for setting the format the clipboard stores the data as when exporting to the clipboard.

Check your settings in freehand and see if some will make a difference for you.

It may depend on your version of Freehand, but you should find it under the EXPORT tab in the preferences. I've noted this with a huge difference when copying out of Illustrator which has settings for preserving the paths, or appearance and whether to use PDF or EPS formats in the clipboard.

Good Luck!

[I WAS the One]

people PLEASE... I've been working with freehand since the beginning, and let me tell you, Freehand is ALWAYS correcting production problems that you will find in Illustrator. I mean, Illustrator is a good application, I use it sometimes when a client bring me an art for restoration in .art format, but believe me, Freehand will always be the best illustration program today. and if you want to use it like the good old pagemaker days, you will find a great product too, In design is better than quarks TODAY, and I mean OSX days, if you want to compare it to OS9 Quarks you are losing... OS9 quarks is much better that OSX version. period. but getting back to the topic, I believed that Freehand will be the best application to do any kind of project including Brochures. I always get better results in freehand, better final results I mean, the exact art I saw on my Mac's monitor is the exact print output I get. And thats why I preffer FH than Illus-traitor.

[dennisbolt]

There are two things that come to mind in this thread.....

If the original question regards viewing a freehand file in freehand itself and then exporting it as a cmyk eps or jpeg to put it into an InDesign document? I know that in Quark 4 the representation of that eps/jpeg/etc you see is low res and often distorted color-wise. I never judge a placed image in quark until I open it in its native application. RGB files seem to represent better in freehand, but they should be cmyk if you want them to print okay.


For typography and multi-page layouts i prefer quark or indesign. But Freehand is fine and seems more stable with multiple elements and multiple saves. But for large blocks of text, I much prefer quark or indesign for leading and tabs and spacing etc.

[art_director]

Originally posted by dennisbolt:
For typography and multi-page layouts i prefer quark or indesign. But Freehand is fine and seems more stable with multiple elements and multiple saves. But for large blocks of text, I much prefer quark or indesign for leading and tabs and spacing etc.

give a brochure design to a production department in freehand or design and you best wear a kevlar vest. it's not the right tool for the job. can you use it, sure. but then you could use a hammer to remove a flat tire from your car, too. of course, that doesn't make it the best tool for the job.

[I WAS the One]

I don't think you are right... In my art department we have all the applications for the job. Sure we use Quark for final litography press plates development, but if someone brings a brochure made in freehand. we can use it as well, we verify the pantone colors and the four colors pics, and we make the plates, believe me, you have to know graphic arts to do the production job, if you think everybody works in just one application you are lost in this business, in fact let me tell you this, last year somebody brings me a convention booklet made in COREL!!! it took a few days but we made it. and for my experience, I can tell, it is easier to use freehand than illustrator to work in a fast flow. sorry.

[art_director]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
I don't think you are right... In my art department we have all the applications for the job. Sure we use Quark for final litography press plates development, but if someone brings a brochure made in freehand. we can use it as well, we verify the pantone colors and the four colors pics, and we make the plates, believe me, you have to know graphic arts to do the production job, if you think everybody works in just one application you are lost in this business, in fact let me tell you this, last year somebody brings me a convention booklet made in COREL!!! it took a few days but we made it. and for my experience, I can tell, it is easier to use freehand than illustrator to work in a fast flow. sorry.

illustrator and freehand are not page layout applications. as i said, the wrong tools for the job. sure, you can do a brochure in photoshop as well, but that would be rather foolish. my statement was about the appropriate application, not what CAN be used.

"if you think everybody works in just one application you are lost in this business" -- for starters, that's not what i said. second, i've already made it in this business. and i know that in ad agencies, at least the good ones, people get fired for doing stupid things like creating brochures in the wrong app. why? because it takes more time for revisions and has the potential to send production costs through the roof. in fact, i know a guy who was fired from one of my old shops for this very reason.

sounds like you're in a service bureau, a printer or a small publication. otherwise you would see this differently and you wouldn't be getting corel files from people.

[I WAS the One]

"AD agencies" are the first to bring incomplete Zips/CDs/PDF/FTP tranfer files Arts, sometimes I don't get the fonts, sometimes they don't outline the logos,sometimes the photographs are bad pixelated, in fact, at the end we have to remake the entire concept because "AD agencies" think they know better than GAs. but believe me, we don't start complaining about it, we do our job, and clients are happier getting their final product on time. thats all that matters at the end. My Company is the one that deliver global publicity to the rest of the world that don't speak english, and we have lots (and I mean LOTS) of clients all over the world. We do more entertainment, independent labels and tourist magz between other spectacular things... I started alone, and now I have my own building, so don't start with small this and small that, because everybody start from the bottom and now I just supervise. FREEHAND is and will be the best illustration app in digital art history, and if you want to do page layout with it bring it on, it will be a little different but it will work, nothing like pagemaker and quark, but if I have to choose between those two, I prefer Pagemaker. and if you make a brochure in freehand we can work with that, we don't get you fired because you bring a client with a Freehand document. PLEASE don't go there. I have a lot to say in that subject. "everyday we learn something new and today you will learn from me" my first boss told me that in 1989... he's still learning. don't you? I am.

[art_director]

Originally posted by I WAS the One:
"AD agencies" are the first to bring incomplete Zips/CDs/PDF/FTP tranfer files Arts, sometimes I don't get the fonts, sometimes they don't outline the logos,sometimes the photographs are bad pixelated, in fact, at the end we have to remake the entire concept because "AD agencies" think they know better than GAs. but believe me, we don't start complaining about it, we do our job, and clients are happier getting their final product on time. thats all that matters at the end. My Company is the one that deliver global publicity to the rest of the world that don't speak english, and we have lots (and I mean LOTS) of clients all over the world. We do more entertainment, independent labels and tourist magz between other spectacular things... I started alone, and now I have my own building, so don't start with small this and small that, because everybody start from the bottom and now I just supervise. FREEHAND is and will be the best illustration app in digital art history, and if you want to do page layout with it bring it on, it will be a little different but it will work, nothing like pagemaker and quark, but if I have to choose between those two, I prefer Pagemaker. and if you make a brochure in freehand we can work with that, we don't get you fired because you bring a client with a Freehand document. PLEASE don't go there. I have a lot to say in that subject. "everyday we learn something new and today you will learn from me" my first boss told me that in 1989... he's still learning. don't you? I am.

hmmmm,,,someone pee in your cornflakes?

you never did state what it is that your company is. still sounds like a service bureau or printer of sorts. judging from the work you describe it sounds as if the agencies you work with are not the top tier branding agencies. those are the type of shops i was referencing. places like c,p&b in miami. you know, the shop that does the mini work? you'd never get bad files from a place like that. i could list a few hundred more shops that fall into that category.

missing files require you to recreate the concept? perhaps rebuild the files but a new concept, hardly.

if you're on the back end of the production process you have the right attitude – don't complain, shut up and do your job and do it well.

i fail to recognize the benefit of telling us that you own your building. i'm happy for you. you do, however, sound very defensive. relax, sounds like you run a smart business. but don't lump all agencies into on heap.

freehand the best ill app? there is no substantiation for that claim. it's an opinion and nobody was debating the value of freehand vs. illustrator. personally, i used to prefer freehand but now i'm an illustrator guy. regardless, it's still not the right app for a brochure. only the inexperienced would use it.

on the matter of firing people for building files in the wrong app,,,the fellow i mentioned was working with me on a huge project for a multinational brand. it's a household name. the client's business is such that they produce lots of collateral (what he worked on), as well as tv, print advertising and p.o.s. all of which i worked on. we were working together to meet the client's deadline and to stay on budget. the fellow built a 60 page book in photoshop – not a bright move. it made us nearly miss our deadline and it made the agency swallow thousands of dollars to fix his foolish move. he deserved to be fired.

that agecny, and many others i've worked for have taken their production in-house. the one mentioned above eliminated the need for color houses by building a scanning department and hiring all the folk needed to produce our work through to color corrected files for the printer. for a time they even had a small press onsite for small jobs. they run a smart shop and are wildly profitable – more so than many. they've also streamlined their biz by cutting out the middleman. i would say their work is better as well.

i won't even bother with your "every day we learn" comment. sounds too much like timmothy robbins for my taste.

wow, you still have people bring you zips? (assuming you mean zip disks) tell them the smithsonian wants all the zip disks back for their exhibit on stupid media that's fallen by the wayside.

finally, the "we don't get you fired" comment amuses me. in my experience snippy vendors like color houses, type setters (back in the day), etc. would get dropped if they were argumentative with a production person in the agency. the really nasty ones are all gone now. in the brand advertising world there isn't time or money for that sort of thing.

I WAS the One: understand that this is not meant to be a pissing match. i simply stated that freehand and illustrator are not the best tools for page layout. that is a fact. i was not trying to rip on you or your business so please, drop the tone. this is a thread and forum for peace and love – even for people foolish enough to build files in the wrong software.

[I WAS the One]

"hmmmm,,,someone pee in your cornflakes?"

- not professional.

"you never did state what it is that your company is. still sounds like a service bureau or printer of sorts. judging from the work you describe it sounds as if the agencies you work with are not the top tier branding agencies. those are the type of shops i was referencing. places like c,p&b in miami. you know, the shop that does the mini work? you'd never get bad files from a place like that. i could list a few hundred more shops that fall into that category."

- If you think a little bit, you will realize that this conversation is trully childish, that's why I don't mention the company I own. (you never know who's reading this gibberish) E-mail me at my personal address and I will tell you if you want, that's not a problem.

"missing files require you to recreate the concept? perhaps rebuild the files but a new concept, hardly."

- I have a creative department who do that kind of job. RECREATE THE CONCEPT, (that include meetings, new ideas, marketing and client aprooval) we start from scratch, sometimes people don't know what they want and then doesn't matter if the client thinks he's got it, we recreate in another direction. This type of work process isn't new, you should knew that. and believe it or not, we do it.

"sound very defensive. relax, sounds like you run a smart business. but don't lump all agencies into on heap."

- defensive? it's my baby your talking about... it's instict. sorry if I sound agressive.
and yes I start from a small smart business.... long time ago. long - time - ago...

"freehand the best ill app? there is no substantiation for that claim. it's an opinion and nobody was debating the value of freehand vs. illustrator. personally, i used to prefer freehand but now i'm an illustrator guy"

- True. It is my opinion. I like Freehand. you are using what? Illustrator? good for you.

" it's still not the right app for a brochure. only the inexperienced would use it."

- did I insult you in any way? if I did, sorry... who's defensive?

"on the matter of firing people for building files in the wrong app,,,the fellow i mentioned was working with me on a huge project for a multinational brand. it's a household name. the client's business is such that they produce lots of collateral (what he worked on), as well as tv, print advertising and p.o.s. all of which i worked on. we were working together to meet the client's deadline and to stay on budget. the fellow built a 60 page book in photoshop – not a bright move. it made us nearly miss our deadline and it made the agency swallow thousands of dollars to fix his foolish move. he deserved to be fired"

- very clear now that you explain. I didn't knew the details, so I just express my thoughts about the first comparison you make.

"i won't even bother with your "every day we learn" comment. sounds too much like timmothy robbins for my taste"

- Sad, the truth is that every day we learn. It sounds very real to me... who's defensive?

"wow, you still have people bring you zips? (assuming you mean zip disks) tell them the smithsonian wants all the zip disks back for their exhibit on stupid media that's fallen by the wayside"

- Remember when I said that people from all over the world do business with us? I wasn't exaggerating, sometimes I received Zip Disks from Colombia, What do you expect me to do? make fun to them the same way you did it with me? I don't think so. again... Who's defensive?

"finally, the "we don't get you fired" comment amuses me. in my experience snippy vendors like color houses, type setters (back in the day), etc. would get dropped if they were argumentative with a production person in the agency. the really nasty ones are all gone now. in the brand advertising world there isn't time or money for that sort of thing."

- WHAT? LOL ... who's defensive?

"understand that this is not meant to be a pissing match."

- Yeah right.... c'mon

Read Carefully:
I was defending my app of choice, you didn't convince me about what kind of application was better for page layout, I will be still using Quark for that and I mean the old version, the better one. Tomorrow I will be working in my office thinking in one thing:
who of my employees thinks the "same" as you ... It will be good to know. don't you think?

good night.
this is the end of this conversation. sorry.

[art_director]

i was the one: this has grown tiresome. argue with someone else.

[PC switcher 069]

LOL! did I missed a Star Wars episode?

[art_director]

Originally posted by PC switcher 069:
LOL! did I missed a Star Wars episode?

now that's funny. but it's only funny in the u.s. if you crack that joke with people from other countries it's not funny because they may still use zip disks.

[art_director]

Originally posted by PC switcher 069:
LOL! did I missed a Star Wars episode?

i take that back, being funny isn't professional and can be seen as being defensive. unless you own your own building.

[PC switcher 069]

huh? ... LOL

[dennisbolt]

I guess we can get back to a discussion about Freehand, Quark and InDesign.

I work for a newspaper and we do 90% of our page designwork in Quark. I also do illustrations, maps, charts aetc in Freehand. I do large full page and Doubletruck infographics that include placed photos, text and vector drawings. For those I use Freehand rather than Quark because it does not corrupt as much and I can embed the images if i want. The type manipulation is not as easy as Quark, but for complicated infographcis it is great. It makes very good pdfs much easier than Quark and it makes small eps versions which i thne palce into quark to print direct to plate.

What little Quark 5/6 work i have done in mac 9.2 and 10 has been discouraging. If i page design in Mac osx, it is with Indesign 2. I am looking to upgrade to CS real soon.

[I WAS the One]

Originally posted by dennisbolt:
I guess we can get back to a discussion about Freehand, Quark and InDesign.

I work for a newspaper and we do 90% of our page designwork in Quark. I also do illustrations, maps, charts aetc in Freehand. I do large full page and Doubletruck infographics that include placed photos, text and vector drawings. For those I use Freehand rather than Quark because it does not corrupt as much and I can embed the images if i want. The type manipulation is not as easy as Quark, but for complicated infographcis it is great. It makes very good pdfs much easier than Quark and it makes small eps versions which i thne palce into quark to print direct to plate.

What little Quark 5/6 work i have done in mac 9.2 and 10 has been discouraging. If i page design in Mac osx, it is with Indesign 2. I am looking to upgrade to CS real soon.

Sir:
You have my respect. I Wish get in touch with you whenever you got the chance to share ideas and solutions, and to learn from each other. I believe You Know What You are Talking about... And I really Apreciate your contribution to this Conversation.

[designbc]

Hey, I WAS the One, where in FL are you? I'm in Miami and I just created a design studio with a partner.

[PC switcher 069]

Originally posted by designbc:
Hey, I WAS the One, where in FL are you? I'm in Miami and I just created a design studio with a partner.

Why you ask? anyway I am in Winter Springs. want to meet or something?

[I WAS the One]

SAY WHAT????

Switcher, Please, don't stole my oportunities!!!! thats not funny.
and for the guy who ask, I live in Orlando, and my personal E-mail is adearmas@cfl.rr.com maybe we can have more privacy that way.

Jesus!!!

[frownyfrank]

Is the bikering over?

So my original question was why there is an on-screen difference between colors in Freehand and InDesign, and which one is trustworthy. Inputing the same CMYK values into either program produces a similar color, but far from the same.

This has nothing to do with transferring documents from one to the other. I just want to have some kind of reassurance that the colors I'm using will be reproduced to some exactitude.

Any help would be great.

[dennisbolt]

Frowny...yeah that was what your question was initially:-)

As for drawing a box and assigning it a color in both Freehand and InDesign, and then viewing them side-by-side...I also have that "problem." Freehand's color is muddier but seem more realistic.

As I said before the fun began, I often have the problem of a native freehand or photoshop image or color looking much more garish in Quark. I always thought that it was because Quark displayed a low res-rgb version on screen. Greens always look brighter in Quark.

Does printing the same file from freehand and indesign give you same results color-wise?