[De la Reb]

I have a client who wants the editable files of a promotional postcard that I designed for her. Instead of having me make future edits, she wants to give the files to her assistant/desktop publisher who will use my design as a 'template'. Thus making copy edits and exchanging photos, etc.

Obviously, this is annoying for many reasons. But, c'est la vie.
I will explain to her that she will have to purchase the editable files from me.

The question is.....How much should I charge for something like this?? Is there a standard percentage based on the original job cost? She wants to print/use this file over and over again in her marketing. Taking my design and editing it makes me very uncomfortable, but if she'll pay for the usage, well then, fine.

thanks!

[bluedog]

AARGG! I just had a similar situation and the person kept asking for EVERYTHING. "Oh, and can you send this file too!" I can't even ask a fee -- long story...

Set a clear contract describing how it will be used and how often it will be published. Ask for more than the original bill if you felt like you undercharged, ask for less of your original charge if you feel you already received adequate payment for the service you provided. Ultimately is is how important this work is to you and its worth.

There is a likelihood they will balk at the charge. You may alleviate that by having to options:

1. Charge higher fee (100%) for unlimited usage and giving them the original files, with no strings attached. If you felt underpaid, try asking for the difference in addition to the fee, but list it as a single fee.

2. Charge smaller (50%) fee with usage restrictions such as limiting how long the work can be used (ask for a printed sample of each useage and date used--perhaps one year of usage). If you see they are using it past that time -- as you can prove, have in writing they will be billed the another 50%. You're relying on their integrity here.

It is unbelievable how clients feel like they own your material, when they have only paid for your services. If you use illustrator files I recommend expanding your effects and REMOVING all custom brushes from the files.

My wife freelances and sent a lot of custom brushes in a file, and worry for the type of art in the brushes they may simply *try* their own hand at creating the illustrations using these celluar component brushes including a DNA strand brush that bends and stretches along a path. Hopefully by sending them the files the next artist has the integrity to refuse working with this without consent.

As a designer it is extremely important to respect other's work and refuse to use files with dubious history.

[mitchell_pgh]

it's all how you set up the account...

I'll call in designers from time to time with the expressed understanding that I own their files after they are done. We do this so we legally can print them forever without asking for their permission.

In the old days you could get away with not giving your files away... it doesn't really work that way anymore... unless it's something very specific that you do...

[Macola]

Yup, it all depends on how you set up the contract. It comes down to the "work for hire" argument. Here's a good discussion:

http://www.asja.org/pubtips/wmfh01.php

Edit: I should mention that I've had a few prospective clients who wanted a WFH clause in my contract, and they were not pleased when I refused. I politely declined the job after that. IMO, it's better to lose a prospect than to agree to unreasonable terms that are binding, and pay down the road. But it all depends on the type of work. As someone said, logo design would be an example where you could sell the rights to the client up front.

[himself]

I use a standard contract that contains a clause which states (more or less) that all original artwork and materials are the property of the designer (me), and that the client can have access to the files for a limited period of time, with my permission, and for a fee.

A short version of the contract I work from can be found here, and the longer, scarier version is available here.

[De la Reb]

bluedog:
great advice, thank you. I will offer both option 1 and 2 to the client as you suggested. The job was not something that I hold close to my heart, but I don't want to give up editable files without compensation. So I think your 2 options will work fine for me.
Thank you for making the point about removing custom brushes, as I do use have a bunch I use frequently, not applicable to this particular job, but good to point out...

"It is unbelievable how clients feel like they own your material, when they have only paid for your services." well said!!!

mitchell_pgh:
yes I agree, an up front discussion about usage is key. This is an idea she had after the job finished...i.e. after she had my design to give to her assistant to use as a 'template' (is anyone else sick of that request????) If her assistant was such a good designer, then why did she hire me?????

macola:
thanks for the link, good to know :-)

[De la Reb]

himself:
thank you, VERY helpful. Much appreciated.

[art_director]

I must respectfully disagree with the advice given.


1. The ASJA advice does not apply -- that works for journalism, not commercial. Different useage, different rules and a compete f-ball for all of us.

2. Usage as sugested -- is not gonna work in court if the chips are down. BELIEVE ME, I hate to say this because it screws us all.


I have this happen to me regularly. I mean REGULARLY. Sometimes it's with big clients like << insert major American retail outlet based in Minneapolis that *might* have something like a bullseye for a logo here >> and sometimes it happens with mom-and-pop operations.

Do I like it? H3ll no, it pisses me off, but at the end of the day, they paid me to create an ad / poster / tv spot / web site / brochure / etc. and they own it. Unfortunately we, as designers and art directors, do not have the same protection as illustrators and photographers.

I know, it BLOWS.

The only way I get over it, aside from mass quantities of beer (extra pale ale mind you), is to recoginze that people / businesses will NOT hire me again if I piss and moan when they ask for the files. If I play nicey-nice freelancer I stand a chance of getting more work down the road. Agencies do the same, I assure you.

On the matter of major corporations like that mentioned above or a << major electronics retailer based in Minneapolis with a name made up of the letters Bste Byu >> I know that I'll go broke trying to fight 'em when they ask for files. And, to be honest, they own the sheet because they paid me to stay up all night creating it.

A final note: One of my *major* clients requires that ALL FILES be handed over once concepts have been approved. They then revise and produce the work internally. In most cases I don't see it again until my wife picks it out of a magazine ( or other medium ) and it's done and printed. Generally speaking I've cashed the check by then.


**Bluedog** I suspect you know of the clients I'm talking 'bout. Heck, they may be yours too given that you've moved down to Mpls from scenic Duluth.


Sheet, have I been drunk posting again?

[Macola]

Originally posted by art_director:

1. The ASJA advice does not apply -- that works for journalism, not commercial. Different useage, different rules and a compete f-ball for all of us.

OK, maybe not the best example, but it was the first bookmark I came across--I'm lazy However, the principle is the same--US copyright law still stands, no matter what medium is used. Search the CGTalk fora and you'll find the same discussion: http://www.cgtalk.com/

The fact is that it varies from situation to situation, and client to client. Which is why my point was--get everything in writing, and never work without a contract.

[art_director]

Folks:

Do the work. If the client asks for the files hand 'em over. Simple as that. You'll never be able to fight your clients in court – it's too expensive and time consuming. Not to mention they'll never hire you again. Additionally, in my experience, most of my work comes from references from clients. Piss off one bickering about usage and your biz may collapse.

These are the lessons that come with experience in the ad game.

Your energy is best spent sourcing new work / clients and doing the work. Don't give America's lawyers any more money.

[Macola]

Again, I think you're making my point--I'm not arguing If you have an up-front contract that clearly spells out your terms, there is no bickering or pissing off clients. Both parties understand what is involved, and you set your rates accordingly. If you're uncomfortable with the terms, don't do the work.

Just because you have a contract doesn't mean you have to defend it in court. However, working without one leaves you open to all kinds of exploitation.

[art_director]

Originally posted by Macola:
Again, I think you're making my point--I'm not arguing If you have an up-front contract that clearly spells out your terms, there is no bickering or pissing off clients. Both parties understand what is involved, and you set your rates accordingly. If you're uncomfortable with the terms, don't do the work.

Just because you have a contract doesn't mean you have to defend it in court. However, working without one leaves you open to all kinds of exploitation.

I wish I had the luxury if time to establish contracts. *Most* of my work is of the "we need it now, NOW" sort where I can't get enough time to do the work much less create and get approval of a contract.

[Photo678]

I very much agree with mr AD...I am a newbie to the game of freelancing....but sometimes you gotta let your pride get out of the way....contracts BAHHHH...as far as i'm concerned the client owns everything except for the original artwork created for that job...and I make that clear to them...they almost ALWAYS agree...I stipulate that they are hiring me to "layout" or create xyz for them, for which I may or may not create original graphics...they own everything with the exception of said original graphics....but I do give them the option to purchase those graphics for 100% usage...most times they just want to use the graphics once for whatever it is I am doing ie brochure, etc.

I look at it like this....what does it REALLY cost me to turn over all files...it would probably cost me more in terms of time to keep that stuff myself and to have to deal with clients calling every few months asking to use xyz for abc....just not worth it.

like AD said...the easier I am to deal with the more they come back

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Photo678:
I very much agree with mr AD...I am a newbie to the game of freelancing....but sometimes you gotta let your pride get out of the way....contracts BAHHHH...as far as i'm concerned the client owns everything except for the original artwork created for that job...and I make that clear to them...they almost ALWAYS agree...I stipulate that they are hiring me to "layout" or create xyz for them, for which I may or may not create original graphics...they own everything with the exception of said original graphics....but I do give them the option to purchase those graphics for 100% usage...most times they just want to use the graphics once for whatever it is I am doing ie brochure, etc.

I look at it like this....what does it REALLY cost me to turn over all files...it would probably cost me more in terms of time to keep that stuff myself and to have to deal with clients calling every few months asking to use xyz for abc....just not worth it.

like AD said...the easier I am to deal with the more they come back

Are you saying they don't have access to the original Quark/InDesign, Photoshop, Illustrator files?

I require that the designers I work with submit final artwork prior to final payment. Naturally I don't ask for layered files. I usually go back to them if I need something redesigned.

Someone asked: "Why would someone have them design something only to hand it over to a novice in house person."

Answer: Because they want a new layout, but don't want to pay high fees to have simple edits made... or to make changes quickly. They are already paying a salary... so any work that they can get out of them is "free".

I frequently bring in designers to design templates. It works well because things happen when designers are on the clock. If I did it (I'm salary), the rounds of edits would go on forever.

If I hired a computer programer to work for my company... I sure as heck own the code when they leave.

[art_director]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
If I hired a computer programer to work for my company... I sure as heck own the code when they leave.

And, to your point, when a designer / art director is hired to create an ad / brochure / etc. the client owns that work.

Again, we do not have the same protections as illustrators or photographers. A bummer, I know.

[KeriVit]

They bought it- they own it. You edit you get paid. They are entitled to the files regardless of who is modifying.

Just like we can't (always) sign our designs.

sad

[himself]

When you work as a freelancer ("for hire") for another design/ad agency, they do own the work, because the account you are working on is theirs and the concept is their intellectual property. In that case, yeah the "client" does own the work.

In other cases, when the client comes to you to create something wholly original, the client doesn't own it simply because they pay for it. They own only if you hand over the ownership rights. American and international copyright law states that the author of any work automatically holds all ownership rights to that work. This applies equally to graphic designers as it does to photographers and illustrators and such. So, regardless of who asks you to create something for them, you are the one creating it, and you own it. And if your client knows what they want to use the final work for (and we as designers can help with that if they aren't sure), there should be no objections if they are granted rights limited to that usage. What they pay for in the end is the right to use your work the way they intended, not necessarily ownership -- in most cases, at least.

Taking the time to set the terms for any project is important not just for the individual designer, but for the profession as a whole, so that clients will someday learn to not take advantage of our services (optimistic, I know). It saved me lots of time in terms of avoiding questions and concerns and "last minute developments" that often jeopardize the progress of a project. It also protects me from a client who wants me to give them the moon after the fact -- because those conditions weren't laid out before hand. From my experience, when I present my terms and conditions up front with my estimate and proposal, the "savvy" clients have no problem. It's the shady clients (that I really wouldn't want to work with anyway) that typically pause and try to get me to capitulate, at which point we can negotiate if they have the time and are willing to deal in good faith.

In the end, if everyone knows exactly where the other stands from the giddyup, and the client is satisfied with the what they get in the end (and the intermediate process goes smoothly as well), that client will likely return. In any case, I refuse to work on a project of any significance without the proper protections.

[art_director]

That's all fine and good but let's assume you've done a project for Ford Motor Company. Let's call it a logo. If, as a freelancer, you were to get wise with them, they would bury you in legal b.s. to the point of financial ruin.

I'm not arguing with your post, rather, I'm talking about the real world of design and advertising. In my experience it's best to move on. The energy is better spent on cultivating new client relationships and creating more work.

[eyevaan]

great post and replies by all.

The big aforementioned company pays the bills as does the twelve MomAndPop clients that one needs to pay the same bills. Long negotiations are not often at our disposal. It was a hard lesson to learn for me.

I currently work for very big business and when I received 4 'packed' DVDs of files from the previous preferred vendor - it was obvious they were not happy with the request. They had essentially puked on the DVDs but I got them all and it took a little to sort through all 16 GBs of the stuff.

My sidework for many nonprofits is the hard stuff.

"What do you want for nothin? "R-R-R-R-Rubber - biscuit?"

But again, I give them the files. It is theirs. They hired me for it. Perhaps I hold out on some the concept stuff and early designs - afterall that is mostly in my mind anyway.

[art_director]

Ever had a 'wish sandwich'?

A 'wish sandwich' is the kind of a sandwich where you have two slices of bread....

...and you wish you had some meat!!!

Bow, bow, bow...

[himself]

If a company wants to purchase my original files that I used to create the final piece, that is fine with me. They aren't going to get those materials as a matter of fact, however... they need to let me know from the beginning, and I will set my fee accordingly.

It is essentially the same with logo's and corporate identities -- the client wants (and deserves) full ownership of the identity that will represent their organization or product. In those cases, what the client wants is a "buyout," where they own the entire design at least, or all of the materials associated with it's creation at the most. When someone wants a buyout of your work, you have no remaining rights to that work (unless you are granted agreed upon rights from the beginning), and you can no longer earn any income from that work in the future. The fee that is paid for that work should reflect that.

In any other case, say a poster design, for example, the designer has the right to say that this original work can only be used in the printed poster format for a specified period of time. If the client wants other uses for it, like printed in a smaller form as a newspaper ad, or on broadcast television, they can let the designer know that from the start. Otherwise, if they want to use it for a purpose that wasn't agreed upon in the initial arrangement, they should pay for those additional rights. If the client couldn't determine what the total usage of the work you created for them would be until after the fact, that is their mistake, not the designer's, and the designer shouldn't be penalized for it. If a client wants access to my original files in a non-buyout situation, that should be spelled out in the beginning (once again), and there is no problem with me giving them access. But that access does not equate to ownership, and I let the client know that. So they can do what they want to the files I provide them, but they can't use it or it's components for something we didn't agree on, like using custom iconography in an unrelated project, for example.

I am a solo designer (most of the time), and I do some freelance work when I need to. I do make the distinction between "freelance" work (which I view as work for hire) and handling my own accounts, where a client comes to me directly. In freelance work, I assume to get no rights to anything I work on. This is usually spelled out in the contract signed with the agency, and it is the industry norm. The situation is completely different when I am the creator of an original work.

I also agree with art_director about how it is best to move on (and keep moving) in these creative professions. But it can be hard to move forward at all when a company (of any size) realizes that there is a loophole that allows them to take advantage of you. When most companies find this, they will milk it to death. I don't get tied up in legal bickering and challenges once work has started on a project or after it is done because all of that was taken care of before it was even settled that I would be working on it. If a company like Ford (for example) wants to present a legal challenge after work has started or completed, I simply refer them to the agreement we both signed (since I refuse to work without a written, signed agreement). It more than likely covers any concerns they may have. End of conflict, and I can move forward.

Also, most preliminary negotiations don't take that long. It depends on the size, scope and complexity of the project, but most of them are handled in one sitting over the phone. The longest negotiations for me took about two weeks (mostly waiting for the client to get back to me after outside consultation), but the client usually takes as much time as they can spare.

I apologize for being so long-winded, but I am pretty passionate about this topic (as you can probably tell). It was a pain for me to get into the habit of covering my ass legally, but once I started doing it consistently, many of my problems and complaints about clients went away, and things move much more smoothly. When a client knows that you are on top of your sh?t, they are a lot less likely to try to take advantage of you.

[Macola]

himself, thank you for reinforcing my comments. If you are a professional, (running a full-time business, as I am), working without a contract is foolish, to say the least.

I have never had any legal bickering in the 4+ years of running my company. I attribute this largely to having a well-developed contract, and using it up front.

[art_director]

Originally posted by Macola:


himself, thank you for reinforcing my comments. If you are a professional, (running a full-time business, as I am), working without a contract is foolish, to say the least.

I have never had any legal bickering in the 4+ years of running my company. I attribute this largely to having a well-developed contract, and using it up front.

I am a professional running a full time business. I work with a host of blue chip clients across the US, in Europe and Asia. I am very busy and have more than my share of business.

To date I have only entered contracts with advertising and design agencies. These are to outline the fact that I will not steal their clients or solicit work from these clients. I do not initiate these contracts.

I have been compensated properly for my work. I have had just a few legal issues that have come about as result of companies going into Chapter 11, being complete deadbeats or poor business people. I have learned to identify these types of clients and steer clear of them – usually by way of obscene estimates on my part effectively pricing me out of their ballpark.

The majority of my clients work under tight timelines. By the time they call me they can hear the clock ticking and I must perform magic on a short fuse. Generally there's no time for estimates much less contractual negotiations and approvals.

I do not get into usage pricing. I willingly hand over my files and wave goodbye to my children as I cash the checks. Why? It's not worth it and my clients keep coming back for more. They're loyal to me and I to them. They pay me well and treat me even better.

This works for me and my clientele. I make a good living. I run a successful business and I am happy.

I would not fault anyone for pursuing the approach they feel they need w.r.t. to usage but to say that working without a contract in place is complete crap. Been doing it as my sole source of income for five years and on the side for well over a decade. I speak from exerience.



To prospective art directors and designers who may read this:

You will get screwed by some clients when you're learning the ropes. It's a sad but true fact of the business world. I would urge you not to pour hours, days and weeks into legal BS. Again, your time is better spent cultivating new client relationships.

The fact is that most of the work we do has a limited shelf life. Ads, commercials, brochures, posters, etc. are generally used for a short period of time. That's because businesses, market conditions and the like are in constant flux. For this reason it's pointless to argue usage.

Logos are a different beast. They represent a brand and are to endure the test of time. When pricing logos I suggest you ensure you're compensated properly and don't piss off clients with BS about usage. You'll go further that way, I assure you.

[De la Reb]

Thank you all for this discussion, I have learned a lot and appreciate the time you took
to post such informative and passionate responses.

[Westbo]

art_director:

ABSOLUTELY. Great advice. I hope the youngin's are listening.

Folks, you need a reality check. This is business. You are hired to provide a service. If you are gonna be obtuse rather than helpful, your client will quickly look elsewhere, just to not to have to deal with a difficult designer. Clients choose/stay with you because;
1. You do a great job, at a good price or stay in budget.
2. You meet deadlines and stay on schedule.
3. You are responsive, cooperative and EASY TO WORK WITH.
4. You are a problem solver, not a problem maker.

If you believe you are getting ripped off, charge more at the outset or get a new client. (which you may end up doing anyway). But do yourselves a really big favor and get off the "rights thing". It don't play in Peoria or anywhere. Otherwise, you'll soon be sitting looking at that screen wondering where have all the clients and work have gone.

W2

Originally posted by art_director:
I wish I had the luxury if time to establish contracts. *Most* of my work is of the "we need it now, NOW" sort where I can't get enough time to do the work much less create and get approval of a contract.

[art_director]

Originally posted by Westbo:
art_director:

ABSOLUTELY. Great advice. I hope the youngin's are listening.

Folks, you need a reality check. This is business. You are hired to provide a service. If you are gonna be obtuse rather than helpful, your client will quickly look elsewhere, just to not to have to deal with a difficult designer. Clients choose/stay with you because;
1. You do a great job, at a good price or stay in budget.
2. You meet deadlines and stay on schedule.
3. You are responsive, cooperative and EASY TO WORK WITH.
4. You are a problem solver, not a problem maker.

If you believe you are getting ripped off, charge more at the outset or get a new client. (which you may end up doing anyway). But do yourselves a really big favor and get off the "rights thing". It don't play in Peoria or anywhere. Otherwise, you'll soon be sitting looking at that screen wondering where have all the clients and work have gone.

W2

Your wisom knows no bounds.

[m a d r a]

i don't agree with the sentiment that, just because they've paid you for the work, the client owns the original files at all. the client is buying the finished artwork/logo/whatever from you. it's reasonable for them to ask for this finished artwork in a variety of formats [for web use, print use, as an EPS etc.] but no way does that entitle them to the original photoshop or illustrator docs [unless as outlined by himself access to the original files is agreed up front].

your original photoshop or illustrator documents contain the various components used to make the image and also show how you put the image together [filters/masks/brushes/techniques etc]. why should you hand over your 'trade secrets' to a client in this way?

if you went to a tailor and paid him to make you a suit, you wouldnae expect him to turn over the patterns to you as well, so you could get someone to knock you up another one on the cheap, would you?

[Westbo]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
i don't agree with the sentiment that, just because they've paid you for the work, the client owns the original files at all. the client is buying the finished artwork/logo/whatever from you. it's reasonable for them to ask for this finished artwork in a variety of formats [for web use, print use, as an EPS etc.] but no way does that entitle them to the original photoshop or illustrator docs [unless as outlined by himself access to the original files is agreed up front].

your original photoshop or illustrator documents contain the various components used to make the image and also show how you put the image together [filters/masks/brushes/techniques etc]. why should you hand over your 'trade secrets' to a client in this way?

if you went to a tailor and paid him to make you a suit, you wouldnae expect him to turn over the patterns to you as well, so you could get someone to knock you up another one on the cheap, would you?

There is no such thing as a trade secret to photoshop et.al files or to the methodology. What a client buys (or rents, if you would) is your intellect and talent. That can't be duplicated. You learned how to use the tools of the software (that BTW, someone else created), as you would with a brush or marker. Based on your hypothesis, you better pony up royalties to Adobe everytime you use Photoshop.

In the world of commercial design, there is nothing that really is original or hasn't been previously done in some way. We create and produce items for a client based on a need, supplied input, copy, etc.. We use our ability and talent plus our impressions, experience and exposure in day to day life, prior projects, reference, whatever, to produce a fresh and hopefully new variation to communicate. For this service, the client compensates. Layered files are a component and a bi-product. Our product/service however is intangible.

It perhaps boils down to plain greed. Some of you may have this incredible fear that you're being ripped off, not getting your just compensation and recognition for a design or execution that in all reality will have a limited life, before someone else comes along and decides what you did stinks and will do it all over.

So group, get over yourselves. Charge a price you and your client are happy with. Do a great job. Get and keep that client coming back with more assignments. In the meantime, if you need true recognition and reward for being creative... do a painting.

W2

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by Westbo:
....In the meantime, if you need true recognition and reward for being creative... do a painting....

and presumably if anyone wants to buy it off you, they have the right to all the preliminary sketches and samples of all the colours you mixed while producing it, as well

[Westbo]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
and presumably if anyone wants to buy it off you, they have the right to all the preliminary sketches and samples of all the colours you mixed while producing it, as well

Sure thing Madra... After all, we do not want to clash with the sofa and carpet.


W2

[m a d r a]

you got a sofa... and carpet?!

wow! - it's true what they say. you yanks really are rich!

[Westbo]

Originally posted by m a d r a:
you got a sofa... and carpet?!

wow! - it's true what they say. you yanks really are rich!

Yes indeedy I do... well used.

W2

[art_director]

this thread has traveled so far into the land of hyperbole that's it's hardly worth reading any longer.

again, i tell the aspiring art directors and designers:

the work your client pays for is theirs. period. if you want to deal with legal bull i suggest a career with a law firm, not a design shop or agency.

my opinion comes with well over a decade of experience nationally and internationally working for / with a host of top tier ad agencies and design firms not to mention a long list of blue chip clients that are household names around the planet. i don't bother with contractual crap. i do my work to the best of my ability and i cash the check. i strongly urge you to do the same.

time and energy wasted on the sorts of things mentioned here take you away from your sketch pad and your computer – counterproductive pursuits for our ilk. i promise you the greatest talents our business has seen have become so by doing the work, not by imitating lawyers.

[th3ph17]

Originally posted by art_director:
this thread has traveled so far into the land of hyperbole that's it's hardly worth reading any longer.

again, i tell the aspiring art directors and designers:

the work your client pays for is theirs. period. if you want to deal with legal bull i suggest a career with a law firm, not a design shop or agency.

my opinion comes with well over a decade of experience nationally and internationally working for / with a host of top tier ad agencies and design firms not to mention a long list of blue chip clients that are household names around the planet. i don't bother with contractual crap. i do my work to the best of my ability and i cash the check. i strongly urge you to do the same.

time and energy wasted on the sorts of things mentioned here take you away from your sketch pad and your computer – counterproductive pursuits for our ilk. i promise you the greatest talents our business has seen have become so by doing the work, not by imitating lawyers.

an ad agency i used to work for was legal-heavy with clients for a while, until one of the principle guys was in small claims court once a month. All that did was take his time and ability to do business.

especially if it is a logo that the client is already using--probably 20 times in the last 10 years, a client has come to me with some of their existing packaging, letterhead, etc...and tells me that the original designer won't give them the Logo digitally.

It is a pain, but recreating a logo isn't very difficult, and that old designer is permanently out of the loop.

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by th3ph17:
.... a client has come to me with some of their existing packaging, letterhead, etc...and tells me that the original designer won't give them the Logo digitally....

that's not the same thing tho', is it. we're talking about access to the original editable documents. if i was the original designer, i would let the company have the logo in whatever formats they wanted; eps, pdf, print & screen resolution pict or jpeg etc, so that they could use it in whatever way they wanted at whatever size or resolution they wanted - but i wouldnae turn over the original photoshop or illustrator documents, as they are my 'tools' and 'components' from which i built the graphic i sold to them.

i don't think we're all going to agree on this and frankly, it's a bit of a moot point for me as, [so far] i've never had a client insist on having the original documents. i've had clients ask for the originals, so that they could [for example] re-use a web graphic in a printed brochure, but they've always been happy enough when i tell them that i'll send them some high resolution copies so that they can use those.

i think it's a question of attitude really. i always try and be helpful to the client and supply them with whatever versions of the image they require, so they don't actually need the original photoshop or illustrator docs. it's not like i'm being stubborn or unhelpful. i just don't see the originals as being part of the deal - especially in the case of the original poster, where the client obviously intends to use his/her original files as templates, when this was [presumably] not the original arrangement.

[godzookie2k]

yeah I used to get in a tiff about this too, then I just let apathy embrace me. It hasn't hurt my return work, because I take projects where I have to make new stuff, I don't like wasting my time with clients who want me to do a copy change, so they can keep their files all they want.

Plus, I pity the fool who has to decypher my quark stylesheets or photoshop layered files. Its like a nice little **** you later.

[york28]

I just attended a seminar on copyright issues in the graphic design industry, and it comes down to the agreement that you did the work under. If you were an employee of the company then they own everything. If you were a contractor, then you own the right to the actual files, UNLESS you made an agreement to the contrary. So if you never talked about it, you own the actual files.

I've heard that the price for a job plus all files is usually 2x the price for just the job without them.

If they don't have anything in writing saying that they own the rights, then you're good to go.

[art_director]

Seminars are not real world and, if I may ask, who the devil is teaching these things?

In the trenches your best bet is to play nice, hand over the files and cash the check.

I live in Minneapolis. Much of my work is here these days. If I go piss off my client at Corporation X with legal BS about file ownership they might not hire me again. Worse yet, the person I pissed off might quit their job and go to Corporation Y. Then I'm screwed in two places. Not to mention that person will spread the negative experience around town.

Major corporations like Target, Best Buy, General Mills, Schwann's, Marshall Field's, 3M and Gander Mountain call this city home. Even though they're big companies the talent pool is small and my clients travel in tight circles. My business expands through word-of-mouth and reputation. Doing something stupid like arguing over the files for an ad could have a greater negative impact on my business and reputation than the monetary value of those files.

I will say it again: Do the work, do it well and cash the check. This advice about wrangling over file ownership is for people who want to be lawyers, not designers or art directors.

[Westbo]

Originally posted by art_director:
Seminars are not real world and, if I may ask, who the devil is teaching these things?

In the trenches your best bet is to play nice, hand over the files and cash the check.

I live in Minneapolis. Much of my work is here these days. If I go piss off my client at Corporation X with legal BS about file ownership they might not hire me again. Worse yet, the person I pissed off might quit their job and go to Corporation Y. Then I'm screwed in two places. Not to mention that person will spread the negative experience around town.

Major corporations like Target, Best Buy, General Mills, Schwann's, Marshall Field's, 3M and Gander Mountain call this city home. Even though they're big companies the talent pool is small and my clients travel in tight circles. My business expands through word-of-mouth and reputation. Doing something stupid like arguing over the files for an ad could have a greater negative impact on my business and reputation than the monetary value of those files.

I will say it again: Do the work, do it well and cash the check. This advice about wrangling over file ownership is for people who want to be lawyers, not designers or art directors.

Art_Director:

You are probably wasting your time and great advice. People will believe what they want to. Unfortunately, when they get to attend the school of hard knocks, they will experience some tough lessons in reality.

I've been doing this probably longer than most here, even longer than some of the posters here have been alive, and I've seen it all, many times before. This ain't the first nor will it be last time the youngin's get all heady and wrapped up in their underwear and stuck on "ownership" issues. So my advice to them: go ahead, push the buttons. I'll be happy to pick up any assignments and clients you lose in the process.

W2

[art_director]

Originally posted by Westbo:
Art_Director:

So my advice to them: go ahead, push the buttons. I'll be happy to pick up any assignments and clients you lose in the process.

W2

Thank you, that made me spit coffee all over my monitor and laugh out loud.

[Westbo]

Originally posted by art_director:
Thank you, that made me spit coffee all over my monitor and laugh out loud.

Gee, I hope you missed the keyboard.

Regards, W2

[godzookie2k]

I think they really need to teach apathy and cow towing to clients in art school. Much less stressful an existence.

[drmcnutt]

To advise people to forego contracts and usage rights because "it's a waste of time" is irresponsible. You help those to practice of pushing around the little guy even when it is within their rights to keep the usage. Target is going to take someone to court over their files for a brochure? Get serious! And what the court's going to order you as the creator of these files to give them up? As a designer you only have usage rights to haggle over. Include them in your rate if your wish, but don't give them away for nothing, you leave a lot on the table that way. Leaving money on the table is no way to do business in the "real" world despite the opinions to the contrary here.

Work with a contract....negotiate usage rights as creator....show a little pride in your profession....don't roll over and give up your rights just to be "polite" and "nice", this is the "real" world as it's been pointed out.

[art_director]

Originally posted by drmcnutt:
To advise people to forego contracts and usage rights because "it's a waste of time" is irresponsible. You help those to practice of pushing around the little guy even when it is within their rights to keep the usage. Target is going to take someone to court over their files for a brochure? Get serious! And what the court's going to order you as the creator of these files to give them up? As a designer you only have usage rights to haggle over. Include them in your rate if your wish, but don't give them away for nothing, you leave a lot on the table that way. Leaving money on the table is no way to do business in the "real" world despite the opinions to the contrary here.

Work with a contract....negotiate usage rights as creator....show a little pride in your profession....don't roll over and give up your rights just to be "polite" and "nice", this is the "real" world as it's been pointed out.

Quit the ad / design business. The world needs another lawyer.

[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by art_director:
Quit the ad / design business. The world needs another lawyer.

Good one!

Right and leave it to you to let the client squander our ideas without penalty.

It is our right to negotiate usage and it is not asking anything that wouldn't be afforded anyone in any other line of work (artists, architects musicians, writers, photographers) yet designers should let people walk over them.

Why exactly again, because lawyers would get richer or it's too hard to make a stand when you're willing to whore yourself out?

I think designers like myself should stick around so that someone will remember that we are not simple template makers for secretarys with a little Photoshop experience.

[Art4Hire]

This whole discussion is a bit black & white when, in reality, a lot of these issues are simply judged on a case-by-case basis. Like Art Director, I have some clients that simply would not bother working with me if I started pushing for contracts for rights and usage. There are just some clients who are always going to work that way, and they will always find someone who is willing to work with them. If you want to do business with them, you turn over the files, however, you can control what is in your files, and is reusable.

It has a lot to do with what is vector-based or pixel based art. I don't believe that a client can truly have any basis by which they can claim layered photoshop files. How can they possibly lay claim to something that may or may not exist. Your document may have 5 layers or 40 layers. It may contain elements which were composites built in entirely different photoshop files (as possible "ready-mades", or for a different job or client), or even from personal photographs that you may have. I came into this business as photoshop did, and many of the features that are present in files today were simply not there before. I created some extremely complex images in the days before layers were present by complex uses of paths and color channels, images that you would assume, today, had required layers to produce. Certainly those clients had no rights to layers prior to the existence of layers, and so they have no claim to them now. If you have photoshop elements that appear in vector-based layouts (illustrator or Quark) I would say that, while entitled to the image you place in the document, they are not entitled to the image's layered file.

In the case of photoshop layered files to a client that demands them, I would set up your layers in a way that you are comfortable with, and provide nothing more.

With vector based files, you really don't have much recourse, you have to give them the file. You do not, however, have to give them custom brushes, or patterns which are tools to you. Again, who is to say that you didn't do all the elements by hand. If you are being asked to create a template form of your design, that is another file for another use, and you can charge for it. I have had clients ask for Word templates that they can swap text in, that are based on Illustrator designs that were previously done for them. These are new files for a new purpose, and they are billed accordingly. However, f they have someone, in house, who can break apart your original docs and create their own template (and you are willing to work with a client with no rights agreements) then...tough luck for you. Again, though, if you feel that there are elements in them that are part of your creative process, and not something that the client is entirely paying for, I would advise you to create or recreate them in a manner limits their usability to what you are comfortable with.

[Thorzdad]

I've been following this discussion with great interest. I find myself, personally, with feet in both camps, I'm afraid.

To those of you who advocate handing over the base, raw files...do you also give them the fonts? I ask this because (and let's pretend we all purchase our fonts) the EULA for purchased fonts does not allow secondary distribution. By giving the fonts with the art, you are, technically, violating the contract with the font house.

Plus, you are giving away something you paid good money for.

Of course, the files are pretty useless to your client without the fonts, too.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by Art4Hire 

...With vector based files, you really don't have much recourse, you have to give them the file...

Art,
I'm wondering why you make the distinction between raster and vector files, when it comes to handing over the files to a client? I've seen (and created) Illustrator files as complex and multi-layered as any Photoshop file. What is your differentiation between the two formats?

[Westbo]

Geez... here I thought this topic had been FINALLY beaten to a well deserved death. To quote Michael Corleone: "Just when I think I'm gettin' out, they suck me back in..."

[Macola]

Yeah, this one will never die

Just had a new client last week who wanted my Photoshop files. They also want to prohibit me from using the finished piece in my portfolio. Fortunately, I had anticipated this and added a corresponding "annoyance fee" to my estimate, but I don't think I'll be going back to this client any time soon.