[nycdunz]

im not too familar with how printing goes... but what are the best types of stock for business cards? how many lbs? and do i use coated or uncoated?

i set my adobe suite for north american prepress, so thats CMYK, US Swop v2 uncoated i believe...

when designing stuff on illustrator for print, should i use the default cmyk swatch or should i use pantone swatches, the thing is i do not know which pantone swatch to use, there's so many of them... can someone please help clear things up on whats the best way to get matching colors for a print out using adobe apps like illustrator, ps, and indesign...

i always design in RGB (Adobe 1998), and only at the last step do i flatten and convert the mode to CMYK, save as EPS and send off to the press... am i doing that correctly at least? Do EPS files hold the quality of text better? Or should i save the final as TIF, or PDF? not sure what the best way to prep my flies for the press...

[almaink]

"i always design in RGB (Adobe 1998), and only at the last step do i flatten and convert the mode to CMYK, save as EPS and send off to the press... am i doing that correctly at least? Do EPS files hold the quality of text better? Or should i save the final as TIF, or PDF? not sure what the best way to prep my flies for the press..."
OK first of all, most business cards are run on small duplicator presses in one or two colors. 4/C cards are done on occasion but are expensive to run unless you have them printed at a specialty print shop that gangs them with others peoples cards. Any cover stock 80# and up can in weight be used as well as special paper like translucent. Best bet is to call your printer for specifications.

[andi*pandi]

coated or uncoated depends entirely on the DESIGN of the piece. 80lb cover or higher.

is the job really 4/c? then use cmyk values, or the Pantone to Process library, or just Pantone Process library. If the job is 2/c or spot color, use the pantone solids.

now about that rgb business...

[nycdunz]

As for photoshop is it ok to design in rgb, and then convert if needed in the final step if i decide to print em? or is this bad? dont the colors shift once you do RGB -> CMYK? And what do you mean coated/uncoated depends on the DESIGN of the piece? Can you please elaborate on that. I want to know if i should use US CMYK Swop v2 Coated or Uncoated. I thought this depends on the paper I will be printing on?



My business card is more than 2 colors... i was using adobe illustrator, it has maybe about 6-7 colors that i used, some are actual pantone colors and some are selected from the default cmyk swatch.

[andi*pandi]

yes, paper. Thought you were asking whether you should print on uncoated or coated, not what settings to have photoshop set to.

[KeriVit]

switching to CMYK in the end is not horrible. In fact I know many phtographers that do that. but, are you even paying attention to the color shift- if you insist on the cobtrol of color in RGB, then work in it. If you using RGB just because it looks preety on the screen, don't.

As for coated/uncoated. You work in the space that the piece will be printed on. That's it. Colors appear brighter on coated paper, therefore the color you see will look different in each profile.

Now as for Pantone. That's spot color. Get a Pantone book. You pick the color in the book and any good printer will make it look that way. DON'T choose colors based on your monitor. You will be disappointed. Also, don't use Pantone Spot colors if you are printing in CMYK, they won't look the same.

The business card. if it's more than 2 or colors- go to CMYK. If youre using Pantone and CMYK, it will probably all be converted to CMYK unless someone wants to pay for a 7 color business card (VERY doubtful)

Bottom line- choose a color space appropriate to the project and stick with it. For a BC, I would stay with Pantone, though many digital presses will run it in CMYK at high quality and less cost to you. I know we print 4C cards on our digital press all the time that run less than $50, easily beating the price of 4 color offset.

To make sure there are no surprises, submit your file to the printer along with the quote request.

[ApertureFoto]

So where can one get some of these $50 Digital Press cards KeriVit?

kris

Originally Posted by KeriVit

switching to CMYK in the end is not horrible. In fact I know many phtographers that do that. but, are you even paying attention to the color shift- if you insist on the cobtrol of color in RGB, then work in it. If you using RGB just because it looks preety on the screen, don't.

As for coated/uncoated. You work in the space that the piece will be printed on. That's it. Colors appear brighter on coated paper, therefore the color you see will look different in each profile.

Now as for Pantone. That's spot color. Get a Pantone book. You pick the color in the book and any good printer will make it look that way. DON'T choose colors based on your monitor. You will be disappointed. Also, don't use Pantone Spot colors if you are printing in CMYK, they won't look the same.

The business card. if it's more than 2 or colors- go to CMYK. If youre using Pantone and CMYK, it will probably all be converted to CMYK unless someone wants to pay for a 7 color business card (VERY doubtful)

Bottom line- choose a color space appropriate to the project and stick with it. For a BC, I would stay with Pantone, though many digital presses will run it in CMYK at high quality and less cost to you. I know we print 4C cards on our digital press all the time that run less than $50, easily beating the price of 4 color offset.

To make sure there are no surprises, submit your file to the printer along with the quote request.

[KeriVit]

Originally Posted by ApertureFoto

So where can one get some of these $50 Digital Press cards KeriVit?

kris

OK- I should've confirmed exact pricing... but my company we print them on our NexPress for:
100- 42.00
250- 52.00
500- 68.00
1000- 98.00

Assuming a RIP-ready file.

That's on 100# uncoated cover. 80# is less-. Coated is the same or a bit more.

Sorry. was just making a point that digital is cheaper than offset- because we do both. The plates alone on offset- any quantity is $150.00.

[inkhead]

Your joking right? I guess your "method" is just fine if colors aren't important. If you worked at a design firm you would have been fired for this "mistake". ;-)

You DO NOT switch color spaces especially when you can create the document in the right color space to begin with. It depends on who's printing it, if it's a press or some guy printing them on a fancy photo printer.

Pre-press = CMYK (unless you are doing some crazy hexicrom)

[KeriVit]

Originally Posted by inkhead

Your joking right? I guess your "method" is just fine if colors aren't important. If you worked at a design firm you would have been fired for this "mistake". ;-)

You DO NOT switch color spaces especially when you can create the document in the right color space to begin with. It depends on who's printing it, if it's a press or some guy printing them on a fancy photo printer.

Pre-press = CMYK (unless you are doing some crazy hexicrom)

I would argue that many high-end photography and agencies work in RGB until the files are ready for press. Many high-end agencies and magazines work in RGB also and convert based on the printing method. I have taken 2 courses in color correction and both were based in RGB.

Now perhaps nycdunz is not one of these experts, but the concept of working and color correcting in RGB is really not that outrageous, it's just knowing how to do things properly.

[nycdunz]

kerivit, can you answer my question please...

whats the difference between digital press and offset printing?

is 12pt paper or 110lb cover good for business cards? I called kinkos and they told me they print on cardstock, not sure if thats the same as 80/110lb cover though... Should I get it done at kinkos or somewhere else? Quality is a concern of course. I've never printed thru kinkos before tho.

also is kinkos the same as a digital press? im kind of confused... theres so many, offset printing, digital press, websetter printing... and what is sheetfed coated and web coated? so many terms, im getting confused...

i have my ps set to north american prepress defaults... and its set to CMYK US web coated Swop v2, not sure what that means...

all i know is my printer uses heidelberg, and they do a CTP (computer to plate) before printing... now sure if i have the right settings... please help...

and the reason i always start in RGB, is because its a lot easier to color correct 3 channels of color than 4 channel, file size is much smaller, all filters/plugins are available... i read many color correction books and tutorials and most recommend to start in RGB, and if needed, convert to CMYK b4 sending off to press.

[nycdunz]

kerivit, can you answer my question please...

whats the difference between digital press and offset printing?

is 12pt paper or 110lb cover good for business cards? I called kinkos and they told me they print on cardstock, not sure if thats the same as 80/110lb cover though... Should I get it done at kinkos or somewhere else? Quality is a concern of course. I've never printed thru kinkos before tho.

also is kinkos the same as a digital press? im kind of confused... theres so many, offset printing, digital press, websetter printing... and what is sheetfed coated and web coated? so many terms, im getting confused...

i have my ps set to north american prepress defaults... and its set to CMYK US web coated Swop v2, not sure what that means...

all i know is my printer uses heidelberg, and they do a CTP (computer to plate) before printing... now sure if i have the right settings... please help...

and the reason i always start in RGB, is because its a lot easier to color correct 3 channels of color than 4 channel, file size is much smaller, all filters/plugins are available... i read many color correction books and tutorials and most recommend to start in RGB, and if needed, convert to CMYK b4 sending off to press.

Also what is a RIP ready file? does that mean a flattened file, thats either save as a psd, jpg, eps, pdf, tif? What do you recommend is a good type of file to send off to the press? i heard a flattened ps tif file doesnt hold the text too well... i was told eps was the best, is this true? When saving as an eps it gives me options for PostScript Color Management, Include Halftone Screen, Include Transfer Function, Image Interpolation, Include Vector Data, Encoding (which is default at ASCII85)... do i need to check any of these boxes before i save the final eps?

[KeriVit]

1. Digital printing is more like a color copier except it prints directly from your file. Digital printers vary, but the most economical is the toner or dry ink based presses, the ink of them as huge color laser printers. They are most economical for short runs because you don't have to pay for plates, press washes, etc. Quality varies on these presses or printers, so beware.
Offset printing uses metal plates and "liquid" or rubber based ink. Generally, they will run either spot colors (Pantone colors that are mixed specifically for a job) or CMYK (4 color ink printing that covers the whole gamut of color). Generally, full color brochures and photos and such are printed CMYK using offset printing. Offset is ideal for larger runs and highest quality.

2. Paper weights vary slightly depending on the brand. a 12 pt. or 80# cover is sufficient. I personally prefer at least 100# or 14 pt. Kinko's is not real high on my list of printers, but I may be biased. I just have not had good experiences there. Their prices may be better, but I have found that that is because you are not comparing "apples to apples". Make sure if you get different pricing, they are all the same stock, colors and method of printing. Ask for samples of what they are quoting to make sure you like the quality. Last I knew- Kinko's uses Xerox Docucolors- not the worst, but not the best- part depends on the operator.

3. Kinko's offers different methods of printing. Most likely, if they are doing it "in-house" it is digital. They tend to send out for other types of printing. Web printing is similar to offset (for the purpose of this discussion). It is a huge roll of paper being fed through a huge press- measure in feet not inches here. Web is generally used for LONG runs of catalogs or magazines. Any magazine or catalog you get in the mail is probably web. Feel the paper- feel how thin it is. Let's just call sheetfed - offset, ok? Sheet sizes vary- Smaller than 8 1/2x11 or even maybe a 26"x40" sheet. Your job is imposed or ganged multiple up and printed on one sheet.

4. PShop settings. It's a battle, but for simplicity's sake, unless you are designing an ad for a magazine, or an actual magazine, don't use web. Honestly, until you really get a hang of color management, there is not a husge difference between web and offset color space, but they do vary. But, if your monitor is properly calibrated, the proofing system at the offset printing shop is calibrated, and they have a good pressman- things will fall in line nicely. This is not always the case. SWOP stands for something like- "Specifications for Web and Offset Printing" it's a set of standards from the almighty color gods. Most printing companies try to adhere to these standards.

5. Chances are the Heidelberg is an offset press. They make both, but know web printer in their right mind would print your card on a web press. In my opinion, Heidelberg presses are the best. CTP is dandy. It saves you money in the long run because they are not making film and burning plates. (A whole different discussion.)

6. I'm fine with you working this way, as I said, I have been trained in this way AND in working in CMYK. I agree with the points you make. BUT! DO PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR CONVERSION. When you convert from RGB to CMYK, you are actually throwing away color data. RGB has a larger gamut than CMUK. You can actually work in RGB, but check the CMYK preview to make sure you are not just fooling yourself. That little exclamation mark above colors DOES mean something. It means you cannot achieve that color in CMYK.

7. RIP ready. Raster Image Processor. Basically, this means, make sure your file is READY to go! The resolution should be 300 dpi, the color should be CMYK or Spot- (not both). Bleeds should be pulled. Size should be correct. Any necessary fonts should be included. In other words, RIP-ready means the printer does not have to do anything to fix your file to make it work. This costs you money. It takes time. Your printer should have a list of things they want you to check. So many rules!
EPS file. Sure- TIF- fine. EPS- I don't check anything except for perhaps embed color profile. Including vector data is fine, and the type will appear the best, but some printers have problems with these files and you really can't open and modify them. So save your original PSD!

phew!

how's that?

Keri

[andi*pandi]

well I think you schooled 'im proper! well said!

[nycdunz]

Keri, wow awesome explanation, i feel a lot more confident now... ok so i now know that i will be using US CMYK sheetfed coated instead of web coated since i know that my printer does offset, i know because they do gang runs on sheets of 20x26 all the time... and as for coated and uncoated i am still unsure on this, what should i use? I also notice that the CMYK US Sheetfed profiles are not SWOP certified... hrmm...

and you almost mention to pull bleeds off the RIP ready file? i always design my stuff with .125 (1/8th") bleed all around though... so you're saying to have no bleeds at all in my file?

also do i need to get a printer profile of the heidelberg from them and install it on my computer so i can see exactly how it will look when it comes off the press? will they allow me to do this? do i also need their acrobat distiller profile as well? color is important to me... thanks again keri for your very well and thorough response...

Lets say I print my business cards here at work, where we have a xerox docucolur 12 and a docucolor 3535, what CMYK profile should i use? Sheetfed, or web? that one kinda confused me.

Lastly, i shouldnt really have to worry about the color settings in my adobe apps too much right? once i send it to the press, they will make sure the color profiles and settings are correct right? As long as i save my final in CMYK, i should be alright?

[KeriVit]

Good. glad you're getting it.

1. coated or uncoated depends on the stock you choose. coated is shiny, uncoated is dull and flat- though this is not a bad thing. Coated can be very classy and business like. Don't worry too much about SWOP at this point- your brain will hurt.

2. You are doing it correctly- by pull bleeds, I mean some programs like Quark or InDesign, you have to literally pull the box open over the edges to account for that 1/8"

3. You can do that if they have one. Not all printers do though. It's not a bad thing, just some are more advanced than others.

4. on the docucolor- if this is for final output, I would use whichever you feel looks better unless you will be trying to match one of those processes later on. I'm trying to keep it simple. If you are trying to get your proof to match the press, that is a whole different animal. Tests would need to be run and profiles made. For the best idea of what your project will look like- have the printer provide a proof that they will match as well as possible.

5. Yes and no. You want to keep profiles consistent. But, really, it takes more than a brief tutorial to truly understand it all. They may not even look at your color- they may just say "well, that's what you gave us." Depends on the printer.

You are searching for the holy grail, my student. Your effort is admirable, but take baby steps.

[KeriVit]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

well I think you schooled 'im proper! well said!

Thanks for the acknowledgement andi... that was quite a post on my part.