[Photo678]

Ok, bear with me here and I will nutshell this one.

Client wants a "squarish" postcard...I design it, send it off to print...she doesn't want to pay for the printing, so goes with a cheaper printer (jim bobs print emporium)...colors are goofed, im never notified to see the proof, she approves, runs to print, to the post office...extra 12 cents for postage...she pays...sends it out...people that get the card, complain about some colors...she asks me to revise...i agree to for free....revise to her specs...went 8x6 or so to maintain 37 cetn postage.

Now she doesn't want to pay me, because she claims I cost her extra money.

So what do I do? Eat the invoice or plead my point

[andi*pandi]

tell client she's idiot. No really.

[himself]

Did she get the final prints yet? If not, cancel the job. If she won't pay, she gets no product. If she does have your work already, threaten legal action if she doesn't pay. Otherwise, you may just have to let this one go...

[Photo678]

Yeah, she got everything from me...the problem is that postcard is for a lounge type singer, who is also a personal injury lawyer...weeeee

today she threatens me

"This is your written warning:
Do not contact us or our affliates via telephone, or e-mail from this time forth."

HAHAH...i hate people

[Zimphire]

I'd get a lawyer. She is bullying you.

And the guy is a PERSONAL INJURY lawyer. Not someone that would deal in that sort of case.

Let him try though against a lawyer that does. Everyday.

[Westbo]

Originally Posted by Photo678

Yeah, she got everything from me...the problem is that postcard is for a lounge type singer, who is also a personal injury lawyer...weeeee

today she threatens me

"This is your written warning:
Do not contact us or our affliates via telephone, or e-mail from this time forth."

HAHAH...i hate people

What a moron! (Your client that is).

So, do exactly as she has written. Do not contact her or her affiliates from this time forth (so forceful isn't she?). Have your attorney do all the contacting. Keep all your emails too!

Good luck W2

[micahgartman]

Another example of the importance of having your client sign a *contract*
mg

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Photo678

"This is your written warning:
Do not contact us or our affliates via telephone, or e-mail from this time forth."

She has no right whatsoever to order you not to contact her affiliates, and if you haven't done anything to her (like threatened her, intimidated her, hassled her unduly, etc.), I don't think she has any right to forbid you from contacting her either.

Write her a letter back (she didn't mention letters, just e-mail and telephone), something along the lines of

“This is your written warning:
Do not contact me personally in any way; do not mention me to anyone, neither in speech nor in writing. The work which I have done for you may not be used in any way pending legal action against your firm.”

Then sue her for failing to pay for the job. Find out if she's been bad-mouthing you to her affiliates/friends; if she has, slap a libel/slander suit against her as well.


This might not all hold up, legally, but, if nothing else, the vindictive side of you can at least gloat a little in the thought of doing it all, and getting her good.


Also, I hope that in the future, you will try to be more careful to be more involved in every step of the making of the product, to prevent something like this from happening again.

[Macola]

If you have the time (and patience) you could do this through small claims court, assuming it was a low-cost project.

[Photo678]

Thanks all,

No I have been nothing but civil to her through email, she won't take my calls. I asked for the contact info for the printer, I wanted to see if she signed off on a proof. She "claimed" she had to hire another designer to finish my job, lol, so I kindly asked for his contact info as well, because he would be in violation fo copyright for accepting work that did not belong to her.

hence the "dont contact me" BS.

She keeps saying "YOU COST ME $500 extra because of your mistakes" and her point is that she shouldnt have to pay my invoice because she had to pay for the extra printing.

My point is that the first printer she chose i had scheduled to go and view the proof...that morning she cancelled the job with the printer because "it cost too much" so went with a cheaper printer, and just gave me an email address to send it to. I did not sign off or even see the proof, the first i saw it was when she mailed it to me, lol

If she viewed the proof, and signed off on it, than it is her responsibility...she didnt start complaining until some of the people that received the card complained about the color. I agreed to revise to her liking (without cost) which I did...she viewed my proofs online okd them, and now this...so ive no idea if this new one was printed, if there was in fact a new designer???

I sent her an email after that one today, just stating that i was trying to make amends and that I would like to speak with the printer and see if I could her a refund (not really, i just want his contact info to find out if she signed off on the proof).

I mentioned that she has forfeited all rights to use any of my work for any purpose whatsoever, for failure to pay.

But yes, tis a lesson learned....a hard lesson...bitch

EDIT...oh and I know she has been slandering me to fellow colleagues...funny thing is the people she is bitching to are people that I put her in touch with to do her website...these are friends of mine, lol...some people have no common sense

[himself]

Her use of your work without your permission is copyright infringement, and it is a federal (I'll repeat that -- FEDERAL) offense. I don't know if she understands that or not, but maybe you should inform her of that fact. Lawyers for the Creative Arts is a great resource for creatives who need free legal representation (if you need it). They are based in Chicago, but I am sure that they work nation-wide.

I can understand your intent to remain civil about this, but you can still be civil and at the same time be totally professional. If demonstrate that you are serious about your work and will not tolerate clients walking over you, you'll get serious clients. The fact is, I doubt you'll be working with this person again, so burn this bridge already.

[mitchell_pgh]

Watch out... a scorned person will tell EVERYONE their version of the story regardless of how wrong they were. I would drop it. If you try to go after her, in the end, you will look like the bad guy. (Even if you are clearly in the right).

Unless she continues using your stuff without paying, don't worry about it and focus on obtaining new clients.

[tpicco]

It seems like a small enough job to let it go. Deduct the loss from your taxes and never go near her again... and in the future, get better details about the job before you start. (ie" who prints? who approves? who pays half up front before the job gets started.)

[ashtoash]

If you need any help let me know, I've delt with people like this. PM me and you can give her my information as your legal contact. I can "clear" things up with her...

[art_director]

Take the lesson learned and walk away.

This board is full of people who believe lawsuits will solve their problems. That's hogwash and I urge you to ignore it -- especially the suggestion that this is a federal case of copyright infringement.

Look, it's an effing postcard for a lounge singer. That means you were to be paid like $1,000 - $2,000 tops. Hardly worth the time to fire up the court. And, if you go that route, it's small claims only. Lawyers don't pay for themselves at such low monetary levels.

Finally, about writing this off on your taxes, that's simply not true -- you can't. You can write off your material costs -- lasers and the like -- but your design and concepting time have vanished into the wind.

[tpicco]

I was under the impression that bad debts or unpaid invoices are considered "business expenses."

Believe me, if I get screwed out of a $3,000 fee that I did the work for, I have lost $3000 in my opinion...

...but I am no accountant.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by tpicco

I was under the impression that bad debts or unpaid invoices are considered "business expenses."

Believe me, if I get screwed out of a $3,000 fee that I did the work for, I have lost $3000 in my opinion...

...but I am no accountant.

That's what I thought too. My accountant broke the bad news to me when I took it in the shorts on a project a few years back.

It's true that we lose out on the cash and every bit as true that Uncle Sam doesn't give a flying fook about it. IOW, no way to write it off in the eyes of the IRS.

[Macola]

Originally Posted by tpicco

I was under the impression that bad debts or unpaid invoices are considered "business expenses.".

Only if you use the accrual method of accounting i.e., the amount is counted in your receivables when you issue the invoice.

[art_director]

Not according to my accountant. He says it's money out the door.

[Westbo]

Originally Posted by Macola

Only if you use the accrual method of accounting i.e., the amount is counted in your receivables when you issue the invoice.

It doesn't matter if you are accrual or cash based. Only deductions allowed are for out of pocket items and services you retained and paid for. For example, if Photo678 purchased the printing, or subcontracted a freelancer to help, he/she could deduct those costs.

[tpicco]

well that sucks... that implies my labor is worthless, but the labor of the guy I subcontracted isn't?

[Macola]

Originally Posted by Westbo

Only deductions allowed are for out of pocket items and services you retained and paid for.

True enough, but that doesn't apply to writing off bad debts. I don't use the accrual method, but our accountant specifically mentioned the following:

1. When you invoice the client, the amount shows up in your receivables.
2. If the client then refuses to pay within a specified time-frame (I don't recall what it is, but it's defined by the tax code), you can write off the amount of the invoice as a bad debt.

Essentially, you are simply zeroing out the account (equivalent to reversing an invoice).

Of course, with the cash method you don't have receivables, so the above doesn't apply. Here's another take on the subject:
http://www.itssimple.biz/biz_tools/text/P06_2900.html

[andi*pandi]

Perhaps you had a subcontractor. His name is Fluffy, and while his main job is keeping your keyboard warm, he does supply an integral part of the production process.

[mitchell_pgh]

I wouldn't go after someone unless it was for $5,000 or more. If you fight someone over a few hundred dollars or even a thousand, you are wasting your time. By the time you pay someone to go after them, personal time traking the process, etc. etc. you will be out more than $5K.

[himself]

Originally Posted by art_director

Take the lesson learned and walk away.

This board is full of people who believe lawsuits will solve their problems. That's hogwash and I urge you to ignore it -- especially the suggestion that this is a federal case of copyright infringement.

Look, it's an effing postcard for a lounge singer. That means you were to be paid like $1,000 - $2,000 tops. Hardly worth the time to fire up the court. And, if you go that route, it's small claims only. Lawyers don't pay for themselves at such low monetary levels.

Finally, about writing this off on your taxes, that's simply not true -- you can't. You can write off your material costs -- lasers and the like -- but your design and concepting time have vanished into the wind.

This board has a few naïve people who believe that there is nothing you can do in these situations but bury your head in the sand and let your clients walk all over you. Taking it in the ass is not your only option; but it's not up to me whether you exercise that option or not.

I have no idea how much the project was worth (I doubt you do either). Whatever the amount that was lost, I'm sure that this was an important lesson learned... but that won't prevent another client from doing this again. It is not wise to not know where you stand in these situations -- when someone uses copyrighted creative work without permission, it is indeed a federal offense (or, do you know otherwise?), and I make sure deadbeats at least get a notice (a single notice has cleared things up for me a number of times).

I don't know about you, art_director, but I make 100% of my living in the creative field. When someone stands in the way of me earning what I'm due, you damn well better believe I'll take the necessary action to ensure that my livelihood isn't threatened. Do what you will.

[art_director]

Aspiring ADs and designers:

When you run into payment issues with clients you have two choices:

1. Take your client(s) to court. This will take a lot of your time which could be otherwise used working or soliciting new business and you may not win.

2. You can walk away and use the time expanding your business, building relationships and furthering your professional goals.


It has been suggested that option 2 is rolling over and allowing others to take advantage of you. Nothing could be further from the truth. That view is not business driven, it's ego driven and counter productive. The fact is that this is a business and, like any business, we'll take some losses. The smart people I know in this game don't waste time with court unless there's a substantial sum on the line. They certainly do not bother with any concilliation court rubbish.

There has also been mention that federal laws may be broken. Only a fool believes that a federal court would hear a case based on a small sum of money. That position is untrue and reckless.

Again, on the matter of the original poster's problem, I would walk away and take the lesson with me.

[art_director]

Himself:

I've made my income solely off this business for fifteen years. Not once in my career has fighting a court battle justified the time away from building my business. I run a strong, profitable business that has grown incrementally every year since I set out on my own. I've done that by keeping my eye on the ball and making decisions based upon rational business needs rather than feeding my ego.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by art_director

Himself:

I've made my income solely off this business for fifteen years. Not once in my career has fighting a court battle justified the time away from building my business. I run a strong, profitable business that has grown incrementally every year since I set out on my own. I've done that by keeping my eye on the ball and making decisions based upon rational business needs rather than feeding my ego.

I agree 100%. It is NOT rolling over and taking it in the... well you know. It's realizing that my time and energy can be better spent finding more work, actually working or trying to smooth over the situation.

The moment you sue, NEVER expect ANY work from that company or anyone associated with the company. Negative word of mouth spreads like wildfire.

I've had disagreements where the client was CLEARLY in the wrong, but I sucked it up and took the loss. Why? Because I knew the NEXT project would work out. I've also had to magically become "too busy" for some clients.

[tpicco]

Learn to get 50% of the fee upfront or a sizable "retainer" that will lessen the potential pain if someone screws you again... Take your example from lawyers...

[art_director]

Good words of advice. I too have employed the "I'm too busy" approach for unruly clients.

[art_director]

Retainers are also smart moves with new or suspicious clients.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by art_director

Retainers are also smart moves with new or suspicious clients.

Are you sure? Won't false teeth give the impression that you're old and unhip, and unable to generate exciting graphic design?

[/slapstick]

[art_director]

you got me there.

[mitchell_pgh]

Even if the client is sketchy, I generally ask for 25% up front... another 25% in the middle and the remainder at the end. If the project is small, I don't bother.

[budster101]

Write a basic contract next time.
50% up front on anything over $250 or what you walk away limit is.

This should fix problems that may occur.
Define everything from the outset. This was a lesson in defining everything and reponsibilities.

[Macola]

Originally Posted by budster101

Write a basic contract next time.
50% up front on anything over $250 or what you walk away limit is.

This should fix problems that may occur.
Define everything from the outset. This was a lesson in defining everything and reponsibilities.

Good advice. You're sure to hear differently from others here (or just search the forum for "contract").

I've certainly done my share of projects on handshake agreements, but nothing beats even a basic written agreement that spells out payment terms.

[mitchell_pgh]

Much of the time, after the first project or two, there is no reason to get money up front.

It depends upon the client I guess.

[tpicco]

>>>Much of the time, after the first project or two, there is no reason to get money up front.<<<

Well this is true, of course

[Photo678]

My thoughts exactly...although she was to be a "whale" she had me working on 4 projects at once, but I of course wouldnt start till the first was done, "just in case" I just hate when im right

[himself]

An up-front deposit is always the way to go. It shows that the client is willing to deal in good faith, and it is an extra motivator for the designer to deliver results. This, along with a contract spelling out the terms of your arrangement go a long way in avoiding these kinds of situations.

Retainers can be a good solution, but I tend to avoid them. It generally gives the client an excuse to milk you for all of your time (and usually on short notice), especially when that retainer is about to expire.

Originally Posted by art_director

Himself:

I've made my income solely off this business for fifteen years. Not once in my career has fighting a court battle justified the time away from building my business. I run a strong, profitable business that has grown incrementally every year since I set out on my own. I've done that by keeping my eye on the ball and making decisions based upon rational business needs rather than feeding my ego.

For those suffering from a lack of reading comprehension... never once did I state that you must sue or take your dead-beat client to court in these situations. I did, however, recommend a threat of legal action (which is completely different from actually taking legal action, in case you didn't notice).

I've never once spent time in court getting money from a client. I do, however, have a document I keep handy in the event that a client misses payment after a certain period of time, and after a certain number of notices. The threat alone has been enough to get dead-beat clients to pay up on two occasions (on only one occasion have I needed to just let it go). It's not at all about ego, it is about making sure you at least try to get the money you earned before you eat it.

[art_director]

Don't be an a$$, Himself. Nobody said anything about not trying.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by himself

It's not at all about ego, it is about making sure you at least try to get the money you earned before you eat it.

Thanks for agreeing with us.

[Photo678]

Care to pm me that document :-)

[himself]

Originally Posted by art_director

Don't be an a$$, Himself. Nobody said anything about not trying.

To the contrary, your whole argument seems centered on "rolling over." Where did you once mention that at least an attempt to get you your money should be made? I don't see it...

So, you don't need to resort to name calling if you can't counter my point.

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Thanks for agreeing with us.

yeah, okay.

Originally Posted by Photo678

Care to pm me that document :-)

Sure, I'll send you a copy. These kinds of documents are most effective when you have a detailed contract (or at least, a general Terms and Conditions document) for the project in question.

[art_director]

Again, to young art directors and designers, spend your time cultivating new client relationships and leave legal BS to others. You'll be more successful in the end.

[budster101]

No kidding. I need a lawyer to talk to a recent client, because not only did he stiff me on the payment, but he's a pompus ass about it. Gonna have to write off some money here myself.

What kills me is, it was only for less than $200.00 in fees.... wtf.

What a scumbag.

[art_director]

budster :

Sorry to hear about your woes. Nothing worse than a dead beat client.

[budster101]

It hurts worse when you got bills to pay and spend time with people... It takes food off of my table, and that bugs me. My own fault really, and that bites worse, because I know better.

:/

[birdman]

[sarcasm mode on]

It's nice to know that, if I ever need some free design work, I can just find a freelance designer and not pay the bill, and there's nothing he can do about it. Sure, he may warn others about me, but I'll warn other clients about him too, even though I'm in the wrong. I'll just hop from designer to designer, not paying the invoice each time, and creating a blacklist of designers that no one should use. Then once I've put all the local freelancers out of work, I'll RULE THE WORLD!!!

[/sarcasm mode off]



Seriously though, I guess I would have to be in the "let it slide and move on" crowd. It's hard to garner any sympathy, let alone legal action, when the amount of money is so "small" (mind you, even $1,000 wouldn't be small for my income...). Such is life.

-birdman

[Westbo]

Originally Posted by art_director

Again, to young art directors and designers, spend your time cultivating new client relationships and leave legal BS to others. You'll be more successful in the end.

Amen to that, AD. You can't waste time collecting. It is far better to spend time and resources growing new and profitable relationships. Having said that, like anything there are often exceptions to the rule and it really boils down to the $ amount and future is there is any, of the relationship.

This week, a client refused to pay for a web site design. The client literally recreated the design from a presentation JPG, did HTML and went live. Pretty nervy would you say? This guy is actually professes to be "born again" and touts going to bible class, (I guess he missed the part about the 10 commandments) So, I sent him a congratulatory letter and an invoice and didn't hear back. Only after sending a 60 day notice, did he respond by trying to negoiate a price at 20% of the invoice. I told him pay the invoice or take the site down. He's decided to take it down. I'm fortunate enough to be able absorb the loss, as it was exclusively time invested.

However, had it continued, and it yet may, a legal fee to pursue would run 1/3 of the invoice. If the project fee is large enough (as this one was), it would be worth the fee (paid only if collected) to TURN THE WHOLE THING OVER to an attorney and let him go after this guy. It may also convince the moron to perhaps not try this BS on someone else.

So I suppose there really is no black and white answer to all this. It depends on the $ amount involved whether to pursue legal action. And, unless you have a way to turn the whole mess over to an attorney, it's not worth your time to do it on your own. And as AD recommends, far better to move on to new opportunities.

W2