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chirpy22 · May 18, 2006, 10:53 AM

Has anyone noticed in Illustrator CS2 that when you convert certain Pantone colors into CMYK the percentages are incorrect? For example, take Pantone 312 C. If you convert that into CMYK it becomes C 96, M 0, Y 11, K 0. But what it SHOULD be according to the Pantone swatch book is C 94, M 0, Y 11, K 0.
This happens with other colors as well.

art_director · May 18, 2006, 11:27 AM

yes.

scottiB · May 18, 2006, 04:32 PM

yes, yes. It happened today with RGB values for me, too.

greenamp · May 18, 2006, 07:29 PM

Happens in CS as well. So I just input the CMYK values directly anymore from my Pantone Color Bridge.

himself · May 21, 2006, 10:51 AM

This may have something to do with the color conversion method thats being used.

siMac · May 22, 2006, 03:54 AM

How old is your swatch book? CS2 uses the latest separation tables from Pantone which are regularly updated to reflect technological changes (ie. increased screens, decreased dot gain due to CTP etc).

In theory the values in Illustrator are correct to the latest offset standards: SWOP for yanks, FOGRA ISO (no longer Euroscale) for euros*.

(*assuming you're a good little euro-designer and have adjusted your default colour settings)

Westbo · May 22, 2006, 05:35 AM

What's the fuss? The 2% difference between C 96, M 0, Y 11, K 0 and C 94, M 0, Y 11, K 0 is intelligible. Besides most Pantone colors do not convert to CMYK accurately anyway. I've always taken the "color swatch" formulas and tweaked them to optically match, rounding up or down the percentage to the nearest 5% or if it's 1-2%, change to 0%.

siMac · May 22, 2006, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Westbo

I've always taken the "color swatch" formulas and tweaked them to optically match

Personally I have a Barco CalibratorLine monitor, but I still use the latest Pantone-supplied values because I don't know more about colour than Pantone, nor do I think that my €3000 monitor can produce more accurate results than Pantone's colour labs and their years of expertise.

A word of warning though - I've got nothing against tweaking colours, but don't rely on your printer being able to match colours that deviate from the listed Pantone values, that's what they exist for.

Westbo · May 22, 2006, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by siMac

Personally I have a Barco CalibratorLine monitor, but I still use the latest Pantone-supplied values because I don't know more about colour than Pantone, nor do I think that my €3000 monitor can produce more accurate results than Pantone's colour labs and their years of expertise.

A word of warning though - I've got nothing against tweaking colours, but don't rely on your printer being able to match colours that deviate from the listed Pantone values, that's what they exist for.

It's nothing to do with a monitor's calibration or Pantone's expertise. It's everything to do with the final output.

The mistake is depending on a spot color matching system for four color process work. Most Pantone colors do not match their spot color counterparts when converted to a CMYK process. Some do get close but most look dirty and dingy. Unless I'm using a spot color, I'm more comfortable knowing and controlling a process mix.

siMac · May 22, 2006, 08:51 AM

I agree 100%.

I just wish more designers could grasp this concept and use CMYK colours exclusively unless they know that the job will be printed in spot colours.

The amount of jobs I get with tens of Pantones in them... didn't used to be that much of a problem but now that transparency is thrown into the mix you really need to watch out for 'em.

siMac · May 22, 2006, 08:56 AM

For what it's worth, the latest Euro Color Bridge lists Pantone 312 as C89 J11, while my old Pantone Process swatchbook lists 312 as DOZO* - J15 C100

(*yes it's that old!)

Westbo · May 22, 2006, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by siMac

I agree 100%.

I just wish more designers could grasp this concept and use CMYK colours exclusively unless they know that the job will be printed in spot colours.

The amount of jobs I get with tens of Pantones in them... didn't used to be that much of a problem but now that transparency is thrown into the mix you really need to watch out for 'em.

I don't envy you dealing with some of the jobs you must get... ugh.

Sadly, too many designers don't grasp or understand print production. A mandatory 1 year apprenticeship at a printer would be great place to start for anyone wishing to graduate from "design school". Gee I wonder if anyone can spec type?

chirpy22 · May 22, 2006, 11:25 AM

Well, I just purchased a brand new Pantone Coated Color Bridge and I have the latest version of Illustrator CS2 and it does not match the Pantone cmyk conversions of several colors I've converted so far. There are probably others. So I'm assuming Adobe needs to update their libraries.
A 2% shift in cyan can add a visible difference to the color. I can tell by looking at an output of it. It's not huge, but it is there.
I, too, tweak the cmyk values. However, it would SURE be nice if I didn't have to. I thnk Pantone has taken great pains in finding the nearest converted colors for cmyk. The only colors I know of that get somewhat dingy when converted to cmyk are oranges and some greens. That's the point of using a hexachrome press. All other colors seem to convert fairly well.

siMac · May 23, 2006, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by chirpy22

All other colors seem to convert fairly well.

Er, you have actually opened your Color Bridge right?

Seriously though, it seems strange that the values don't tally - is you Color Bridge north american? In any case, you can download the latest Illustrator color bridge swatch libraries at Pantone's site.

Also, if you pick spot colours from the 'Pantone Solid' swatch library you shouldn't really use those values for a CMYK version (definitely not if the colour ends with 'CVC' since that means the values have been determined for an on-screen match). You should take the values from the 'Solid to Process' swatch library.

Thorzdad · May 26, 2006, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Westbo

...Gee I wonder if anyone can spec type?

~Looks whistfully at his yellowing type gauges and specimen books and sheds a tear for the good old days~

art_director · May 26, 2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

~Looks whistfully at his yellowing type gauges and specimen books and sheds a tear for the good old days~

Two of us...

Westbo · May 26, 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

~Looks whistfully at his yellowing type gauges and specimen books and sheds a tear for the good old days~

How'd you know I still had my haband rule? OK, who ratted me out?

Thorzdad · May 26, 2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Westbo

How'd you know I still had my haband rule? OK, who ratted me out?

What's even more sad are the names of the various local, now defunct, typesetters adorning said gauges and books.

Westbo · May 26, 2006, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

What's even more sad are the names of the various local, now defunct, typesetters adorning said gauges and books.

A lost art for sure! If you come across a Graphics Master work book, they still tuck a " line and gauge" ruler inside and include a copyfitting chart, proportion wheel and type samples. What a time warp. I finally did get around tossing out my Photolettering books. Time for a beer!

W2

mydog8mymac · May 26, 2006, 04:50 PM

Solid to Process is the only thing I trust. I can't haul my monitor over to my printer's during a press check, but I can whip out my Pantone book like a six gun!!