[daftpig]

Hi.

Asking around if it's possible to learn most (of course not all) the design stuff by yourself. Can't really afford to take the design ed route primarily because of parental objections.. in Singapore, this is always almost THE case..

If so, is there any good resource to learn stuff especially typography and colour theory in particular? I would think that conceptualisation would really have to come from oneself tho a critical review process with the help of tutors would be greatly beneficial.

I do have A-level Art but I took Art History in place of my Project paper. I'm in one of the local unis now doing... Political Science... :] which at least is somewhat more critical than some subjects... but I've tended to do some design work for my friends... and the most recent of these can be found: here Would greatly appreciate critiques. (Primary tool: Illustrator, Photoshop is more secondary..)

Thanks pple.

[MikeM32]

Daft, I believe you're either born with an ability or you're not. Talent cannot be "learned", but it can be "honed" to a certain level of perfection. Perhaps everyone is born with a talent for certain things perhaps not.

All the art courses in the world do not make a true artist. This is not to discourage you, but you must accept that it's not really a "skill". Driving a car is a skill, making coffee in the morning is a skill, even tieing your shoes is a skill. These are things that can be learned.

I've heard the argument so many times that art can be learned, but I'm not so sure about that. There are many people in this field that simply have no talent. Sadly sometimes these are the successful ones. But they aren't talented at all, they only know the "rules" of design and how to "paint by numbers". There has to be more than wanting to enter a specific line of work, it has to be an undieing passion.

I say your talent comes out when you DRAW. Draw everything you see, carry a sketchbook with you and just draw stuff. Feel free to break the envelope and the "rules" sometimes. Discover yourself, and never let ANYONE tell you you "CAN'T".

Was I "self taught"? Maybe I dunno, I've been drawing since I was like 12 yrs old. I spent many years in a sort of reclusive state in high school, just drawing. I'm not sure why. I'd wake-up on a saturday morning at 9:00 am and lock myself in my room until midnight just drawing.

There's a fine line between madness and genious I think.

Mike

[realeyz]

There is no other option than "self-taught"...learning anything is all about first what material YOU put in front of you to learn from and then how you process that information once its taken in. I personally design my own learning process and for me this works best. No one understands my learning process better than myself. For those college travelled who needed the structured environment of someone else deciding what they should be learning and how they should be learning it doesnt work for me. The college environment is so stifling most people dont even realize their own potential for self-learning becuase they never really try to develop it. Their parents drill it into them that college is the only real road to travel otherwise they will be flipping burgers. Its really a shame, but we do what we do normally because its what we did yesterday. IMHO college teaches us how to work for someone else, but learning how to be successful is not something you can learn in college (and I am not measuring success financially). I have even talked with people who seem to use college as an excuse for not doing something 'outside' the box of their learning years in college. Most of the time they dont even realise they are doing it. Its almost as if they think college has taught them everything they need to know and then its over. I know college is 'supposed' to teach people critical thinking but in most cases I am not seeing this. Quite the opposite in fact I hear people regurgitating facts or whatever they read in college but little else in the way of opinion or self-actualization. Of course not everyone is like this, but it seems like the rule rather than the exception. I guess its kinda like being smart vs. being intelligent. Anyone can memorize facts and figures but what good does that do? Computers can do that for us. We arent computers...we are thinkers, and this is where I see college taking us downhill. My education started the moment I had senses to take in information, and will continue until I lose all those senses.

Its funny how we label people as "educated" or "un-educated". Are we really this narrow minded? Labels and classifications of people is a dangerous thing and only fosters more problems with prejudice and descrimination.

I strongly agree that talent cannot be 'taught'. There are only a few people in the world who can be olympic champions or world renowned artists, opera singers, in any particular discipline, and in most cases these people discovered their talent at age 5 and fostered it for years to arrive at their current status. Some may argue that they only started young and just practiced longer than anyone else. I would argue that the drive to do these things at such young ages is somewhat strong and not just something they chose at random.

Sorry to get off on a rant - just sorta thinking out loud. If you dont agree thats ok.

[daftpig]

I think I just got misunderstood.

I wasn't talking about the field as a purely skill thingie. Talent of course makes up a certain percentage of success. I do think I have talent to a certain extent and do insist to pursue the learning of design in my own time. So I'd agree with realeyz that 'self-taught' is the only way. (Well, even if you do learn design in college, it's a guided self-taught process. The tutors are really for guides if you need them.)

As for the argument that college isn't that useful, I'm contextualizing my point of view with respect to Singapore's climate. It isn't US nor are we anyway near Australian or UK. It's Singapore. Here, a graphic designer is not different from the common computer operator you hear of. Even if you insist on the differences, the masses simply do not see the distinctions. That is precisely why most of the students in the local unis 'design' and call themselves 'designers' simply because they can download images from the net and piece them together in a 'graphic' sort of way in Photoshop, apply a few filters and ...TA-DA!!! have designed something. No concept required. There is a very clear distinction between the uneducated and the educated here, and employers DO look at those things. Given that the home market is very small here(most companies would rather indulge in MS clip art in Word), the number of jobs available at the entry-level is far less than what US/UK/ any other country can offer. In an environment that is as diverse as US, the arguments on college learning VS self-learning may hold; but in a very very miniscule country like Singapore, that certificate stating that you've entered college and gotten a degree, is quite a must. Design is a luxury in Singapore.. even the local HP office prefers to hire Engineering grads than Arts and Social Sciences grads for all positions, even HR and admin. Pragmatism is a way of life.

It's not that I don't agree with what your main points are. I do. It's just that I happen to be living in an entirely different environment, guided by pure pragmatism that drives the whole country. If we weren't pragmatic in the first place, we wouldn't be having a GDP figure that's as competitive as that of US'.

[ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: daftpig ]

[Too Much Coffee Woman]

if you want to be a designer and can't go to college...

read graphic design books, learn graphic design programs, and try to get a job at a place like kinkos...

i think a place like that is close enough to design practices that you may learn a lot.

and of course, always try to work on projects....book covers, cds, and etc...

try to get a internship or someplace that will teach you a lot, after you assemble a portfolio

work work worka dn it'll happen

[registered_user]

Regarding typography, there are this woman's articles:
http://www.eyewire.com/magazine/columns/robin/

Her name is Robin Williams and she writes for Adobe. If you search google for typography, there is a lot to be found and learned.

[daftpig]

Too Much Coffee Woman: Thanks for your advice encouragement!! Need that..

registered_user: Thanks for the link! I'll go check it out.

[jeffhot]

Talent can certainly be learned. Truely gifted and developed skills are more the result of long hours of practice, not innate skill.

Especially in graphic design you will find people who weren't "born with it". In most art schools, the students "born with talent" go into fine art and those who can't draw so well go into graphic design.

In my opinion, both are great and require nothing more that hard work. Of course a little "divine inspiration" never hurts.

[realeyz]

I disagree jeff - I think talent can be 'discovered' but not learned. Its entirely different. Some people can go through the same education process and still have no ability at the end to create great art or design and yet others can create amazing work with almost no education at all. I think this is the very basis by which we define 'talent'. Talent can certainly be developed and improved, but I would more accurately define it as sharpened and refined rather than learned. Sadly many people never discover their talents or are made to believe at a young age that they are worthless.

[baryonyx]

There is another option. Get a job as an assistant at a magazine or graphic design firm. Get people's coffee, do the grunt work, sweep the floors--in short pay some dues. Work hard, don't complain and you may learn something along the way. There are people out there who are willing to give you all the training you want if you are patient and have a good attitude. The best part is that you come out of this experience with a real portfolio of real stuff--not the sort of "perfect world" computer mockups that the art students walk out of school with these days.

Andy

[Aqua OS X]

Well, there are a ton a different variables here.

One can learn teach themeselfs the ins and outs of variouse pieces of graphic software however you have to remember that you are dealing with art here. Most of us that do this stuff for a living (and get paid well) have taken traditional art classes, learned theory, and perhaps even gone on to digital art classes.

You may now how to use every tool in photoshop, but if you don't know what the hell color theory, white space, or a vanishing point is you might be up the Art 101 creek without a paddle

At the every least... classes at the local JC are only like 25 to 50 bucks... look into them.

[buchrob]

The most difficult part of any human endeavour is to come up with an original idea and stick with it. And that is surely self-taught. You can't have it drilled into you by anyone else.

I come from the production end in North America and was about 99% self-taught because there were no real guidelines to follow when the entire graphic arts industry shifted a number of years ago.

Keep your eyes open and make your own decisions.

Good luck to you.

[Cipher13]

Most of what I know is self-taught.

I believe it's the best way to go by far.

Experimentation is the key to it all...

"To the creative mind, there is no right or wrong; every action is an experiment, and every experiment yields its fruit in knowledge."

[godzookie2k]

Talent is important but it will only take you so far. I don't have any supporting quotes for that but trust me for a minute on it. I think one can get by on being self taught with talent only so far, I *truly* think to go to the next level of work, you need to be given input by someone who has learned from others on conceptual thought, and kerning and leading and having critiques by other designers and so forth. Sitting in a room with 15-20 other designers who are ripping your work apart on the wall is an experience that no book can give you, *giving* a critique is an experience no book can give you, learning critical and conceptual thought is an experience no amount of bobs book for designers is going to help with, these are all experiences you get from going to school and learning this shite. Plus, there is so much more in going to school than just getting a book education. Esp. going to an art school, is such a different kind of experience not replicated anywhere else. Its really a whole different ballgame. But then again, when you are some big booshey ambassador somewhere post your poly sci degree, do you *reallly* think you are going to have time to deal with some client who wants a red white and blue (and no other colors) website?

[daftpig]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
<STRONG>Talent is important but it will only take you so far. I don't have any supporting quotes for that but trust me for a minute on it. I think one can get by on being self taught with talent only so far, I *truly* think to go to the next level of work, you need to be given input by someone who has learned from others on conceptual thought, and kerning and leading and having critiques by other designers and so forth. Sitting in a room with 15-20 other designers who are ripping your work apart on the wall is an experience that no book can give you, *giving* a critique is an experience no book can give you, learning critical and conceptual thought is an experience no amount of bobs book for designers is going to help with, these are all experiences you get from going to school and learning this shite. Plus, there is so much more in going to school than just getting a book education. Esp. going to an art school, is such a different kind of experience not replicated anywhere else. Its really a whole different ballgame. But then again, when you are some big booshey ambassador somewhere post your poly sci degree, do you *reallly* think you are going to have time to deal with some client who wants a red white and blue (and no other colors) website? </STRONG>

I believe in that as well. From my experience in Art class, the tutors serve as guides while your peers teach you a lot of other things as well. Graffiti is outlawed here rem?

[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: daftpig ]

Who says the college classroom is the only place to get professional critique? Is color theory, vanishing point, white space a secret to all but those lucky enough to be in the college classroom? If you think so then you may be a bit brainwashed into the kind of thinking I am talking about with the "college is the best and only way to be educated" route. I am hearing a lot of people here say that books and "book-learning" are the only place to go to get self-educated. I guess college doesnt teach resourcefulness.

[Paco500]

While "talent" may not be teachable, good graphic design can. A person with moderate talent and losts of quality training (self-taught or learned in a classroom) will certianly churn out higher quality work that a very gifted person with no formal training. That person with moderate talent may not be able to achive the level of excellence that someone woth inborn talent could, but they could have a very successful and rewarding career.

Graphic design is a skill, like plumbing or network administration. If you have zero apptitude, you will recognize quickly, and probably choose another course for your life. One does not have to be the next Picasso to do a brochure layout. A passion for excellence and a dirve to improve your skills are the best way to succeed in this field, and almost any other.

Paco

If you have a passion, go for it. Read all you can, apprentice, and practice, practice, practice.

[MikeM32]

Originally posted by Paco500:
Graphic design is a skill, like plumbing or network administration. If you have zero apptitude, you will recognize quickly, and probably choose another course for your life. One does not have to be the next Picasso to do a brochure layout. A passion for excellence and a dirve to improve your skills are the best way to succeed in this field, and almost any other.

You are certainly right there, actually commercial art is more of a "learned process" because there's a common aesthetic. But again the ones who honed thier talent way before even thinking about a career are more likely to succeed. I suppose for me it helped that I went to a very selective art program here in my state during my High School summer vacations. I was accepted through the recommendation of a high school art teacher.

The thing I love about working in Graphic Design and commercial art is that I already have the basic design "know-how", and it's simpler. A few years ago I "thought" going to college was "the answer", and found out I didn't even "need" it. I landed my first commercial art related job just from sending out a bad resume with a few prints of my work. I learned typography from that job and In learned alot about computer graphics software. Now my resume looks better.

I still wouldn't mind finishing college, but what they're teaching me even at the junior level (which I'm about up to now) is pretty rhudiementiary. It doesn't seem to compare to the real world experience of actually working in the field. But again, I couldn't have even landed my first chance in this field if I didn't have some talent.

Mike

[bluedog]

Well, many people believe you can achieve greatness without schooling. In reality its true, but you'll get there faster and may go further with a degree and solid experience.

Some employers will not look at your work without experience, others really want a degree. You'll definitely find work if you have a good showing portfolio of samples. The person who excels at what they enjoy goes the farthest, and a lot of hard work always helps.

The study of work and industry materials will definitely help. Getting a subscription to magazines in design and publishing really let you know what the industry is expecting of designers. I have used them for inspiration of what to do (and what NOT to do in some cases). And lately I've not bothered as much. I think they can be a great learning tool.

The texts dealing directly with typography and design are also really useful. For simply learning applications (the technical side of things), the 'Real World' series of books make a great reference and contain all the necessary skills to achieve.

I've also been really interested in the materials provided at www.lynda.com

Don't get discouraged if this is your passion. Doing what you enjoy will get you further than doing that which is expected of you without your enjoying it. Good luck!

[bluedog]

I took a look at your work. Its very nice. You have a good sense of keeping information clear and concise. The trend has been to mess up and make areas 'exciting' by making them illegible or difficult to read while trying to be 'edgy.'

Classic designs will get you further than the latest design craze. You may get some attention with pieces that are blurred, broken, or filled with collage. My personal taste is for greater longevity in my work. Usually, your clients will reflect the type of design you do. Or you get the clients who like your designs. Being flexible enough to do both when necessary is a great trait and what really is the 'proving ground' for a designer.

[godzookie2k]

Just an aside, I think every designer schooled or not, should have a copy of The Elements of Typographical Style next to their bed. Best type book ever, hands down.

[jesperas]

I think dedication and the ability to learn and grow are more important than talent. I know of a number of very talented people who haven't succeeded because they simply didn't have the endurance to follow through; I don't know of a single designer who wasn't dedicated to their craft.

[himself]

Originally posted by daftpig:
<STRONG>Hi.

Asking around if it's possible to learn most (of course not all) the design stuff by yourself. Can't really afford to take the design ed route primarily because of parental objections.. </STRONG>

Of course it is possible to be self taught, but it may not always be practical. In your case, I would consider some of the advice given here, like doing tons of research, getting connected to the industry there, and getting apprenticeships/internships at design firms... peer critiques are crucial, so you should consider presenting your portfolio to professionals who are willing to review your work.

Also, some books I would recommend: Elements of Typographical Style by Robert Bringhurst (already mentioned by someone), Interaction of Color by Josef Albers, and most anything by Paul Rand and Wolfgang Weingart... I could mention many more, but I don't want to take too much space here. Some other good resoucres on the the web are the AIGA web site, along with ACD and Communication Arts. Just remember, typography skills (or lack of skill) can make or break a designer.

[MikeM32]

Originally posted by jesperas:
I think dedication and the ability to learn and grow are more important than talent. I know of a number of very talented people who haven't succeeded because they simply didn't have the endurance to follow through; I don't know of a single designer who wasn't dedicated to their craft.

I do agree that you have to be dedicated and open-minded to new experiences. Sadly I've also seen many people in this field that had the "drive to succeed" but no real love for what they did.

Mike