[dcmacdaddy]

Hi All,

New to this forum but a long-time lurker in the OS X and iBook forums. Have a work related question that I think the subject line sums up well.
I do Mac and PC desktop support as part of my job. Our core Mac users (graphic and exhibition designers running Quark 4.1, Pshop 6, Ill 9, Acrobat 5, VectorWorks 8.5) are getting upgraded from Beige G3's to the latest G4's and I have recommended a 22" Cinema Display as part of the package. I'm the resident Mac expert but the person who actually makes the buys thinks CRT's are better because they cost less--Another example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" . Anyway, I've got all the proof I think I need to convince the powers that be that LCD's are better (longer life span, easier on the eyes, better color fidelity, smaller footprint--these designers have tiny desks in big offices) but the cost issue seems to be all they care about. Anyone care to give me fodder as to why they should get a 22" Cinema Display as opposed to a 21" CRT.

TIA!


DC

[Justin W. Williams]

I can't tell much difference between ADC LCDs and CRTs, but I am in no way a trained eye.

[godzookie2k]

sorry, It is in my expierence that, for print, colors on CRT's are ten times more accurate than on LCDs. Second of all it *is* much better to get larger CRT's where you can see a full tabloid page at 100% at half the price than it is to get an LCD with bad colors at three times the price.

[ edit: schpelling ]

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: godzookie2k ]

[himself]

I have to agree with godzookie... the only advantages LCD's have over CRT's are the smaller footprints and precise screen geometry.

CRT's generally have good geometry as well, but they are known to become distorted at times (either once they get *really* old, or if the monitor recieves a noticable shock). In the color category, CRT's win, hands down. CRT's display color much more evenly across the entire display, have a wider color gamut, higher contrast, and don't "color shift" when you change your viewing position. It is extremely difficult (if not nearly impossible) to calibrate an LCD, especially when compared to CRT's, and color accuracy is very important to print designers.

Not to mention you get much more screen real estate for your money with a CRT, and when you work with large format documents & images, the more pixels, the better. I will give you the point about eyestrain. LCD's are much easier on the eyes, but most folks can deal with that in their own special way... some of the more expensive LCD's are making some headway, but they still don't match up to CRT's in the critical categories. CRT's will be the designers' choice for a good long while.

[Timo]

CRT may be a graphic designer's choice because of color, but they are not necessarily an architect's choice.

Geometry is very important. When lines are supposed to be straight but are bent by the CRT your brain performs the adjustment. LCDs have more a of a "WYSIWYG" regarding geometry. For this reason flat screens are easier on the eyes even before you consider the argument against a CRT's flicker.

I do not have enough experience with mostly-flat CRT displays, like the Mitsubishi ones, to say if they are effective. However, I can say that I've had less headaches looking at my current LCD displays than with the old (admittedly crappy) CRT I used to use.

[careca]

Although the standard line about CRT's is that they are better for print, that is changing. I just bought a Formac Gallery 1740 ADC LCD that comes with Pantone ColorVision software and a calibration Spyder made just for LCD characteristics. Even before calibration, the colors are a VERY close match to products printed using a calibrated CRT.

The color gamut of LCD's and CRT's is different. However, the statement in a previous post that contrast is better on a CRT is definitely not true in the case of the Formac. It has a much greater contrast than my calibrated and very expensive CRT. (The Formac without calibration kit costs $899)

The colors don't change hue or contrast on the Formac until I'm at an angle that I would never use to look at a CRT either.

In short, while not all LCD's are up to the challenge of color correction,
don't write them off. Right now, I've got my desktop spread across both monitors. The LCD is definitely the main screen. Moving a Photoshop or Illustrator image back and forth between the two monitors makes the CRT look sick by comparison.

So don't assume that things aren't changing in the CRT/LCD rivalry.

[jholmes]

I agree with the above post -
(By the way glad to have more folks on the board from Fort Worth!)

I looked long and hard at the new LCD's before opting to spend al little less on a 19" Sony flat CRT for Photoshopping and color work. The LCD's are getting better but IMO they aren't quite there for color. If you are an Architect tho enjoy having the desktop space back and get that LCD.

[careca]

jholmes...

I thought a long time about the LCD vs. CRT, and only when I saw the Formac monitor at Christmas in a store in France did I decide that MAYBE I should take LCD's seriously. (I had never even heard of Formac monitors here in the States.) And when Formac started bundling the color correction hardware/software with that monitor, I decided to take the chance on it. I figured I could always continue to use my CRT for color correction. I've been pleasantly surprised about the LCD. I won't even begin to generalize about other brands, other than to say that things are changing.


Yeah, thanks for the Fort Worth welcome!

[mitchell_pgh]

The ONLY reason to buy a 23" Apple LCD is if you have money to burn. They are great to show off client work, build a movie set, do a ton of HDTV editing, or have an office that demands perfection and a tiny footprint, but other then that, you are just wasting money.

Granted, LCD may be easier on the eyes, but they are not as bright as CRT's can be and the color isn't anywhere near perfect. It has come a LONG way, but it's not great. The price is also out of control! One could easily buy three 21" CRT's (plus a video card for the third screen) for the price of one 23" Apple LCD.

I would rather work with two 21" CRT then one 23" LCD...

[careca]

mitchell_pgh...

Sorry to differ with you about brightness on LCD's. I'm looking at my LCD screen and it's possible to set it to a much brighter setting than my(also) very expensive CRT. Like I said a couple of posts ago, not all LCD's are anywhere near ready to compete with CRT's, but some are. Also, since the 23" is so much more expensive than the average monitor, either LCD or CRT, it's not a fair comparison for the money. CRT's used to be very expensive, too, and every inch of screen size you added sent the price up drastically.

I keep repeating this: the idea that LCD's are not useful for color correction or proper color display has to be reevaluated based on the latest LCD's, like my Formac, not last year's or two years ago. I could go out and find a ton of LCD's that are awful, but that doesn't mean that they represent the best of LCD's any more than the average CRT is representative of the best CRT.

I'm looking at a side by side comparison on my desk, not what I think is true, or even what was true six months ago. I know all our experiences vary, but I'm describing my current experience, as well as how happy I am that this is happening, because LCD's offer some great advantages that have been overshadowed by problems with poor color reproduction and viewing angle. (And rightly so.)

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: careca ]

[himself]

One way to test for the brightness of CRT's vs LCD's... which is easier to view in direct bright sunlight? My experience (being a TiBook user and LCD displays at school computer labs) is that LCD's are nearly impossible to read next to window under direct sunlight, while CRT's are typically bright enough to be viewed well (but CRT glare might become an issue then). I'm sorry, but CRT's are brighter (generally).

I'm certain that there are some LCD's that surpass the status quo (like the Formac Gallery, for which I've heard rave reviews for months), and I would love to get rid of those relatively huge CRT's on my desk at home and replace them with sleek petite LCD's, but at the moment there are too many trade offs (on both sides) which makes the CRT more feasible (for my particular situation, at least). whatever works for you, I guess...

[climber]

Originally posted by himself:
[QB]One way to test for the brightness of CRT's vs LCD's... which is easier to view in direct bright sunlight? My experience (being a TiBook user and LCD displays at school computer labs) is that LCD's are nearly impossible to read next to window under direct sunlight, while CRT's are typically bright enough to be viewed well (but CRT glare might become an issue then). I'm sorry, but CRT's are brighter (generally).

QB]

I don't think you would be testing only the brightness that way. The finish of the screen has a lot to do with how they perform with glare, like the sun. Think of it this way, if you put an anti-glare filter on a CRT, the brightness goes down, right?? but so does the glare. Less bright does not mean more glare.

The brightness of the monitor would be best measured in the dark with a light meter.

But I think the aspect people see on LCD that they like is really an ovarall sharpness and vivid picture that comes from many different things, including brightness.

[careca]

himself...

I certainly agree that each person's situation dictates what is best for them.

My situation doesn't involve having to try to color correct in the bright sunlight, so I'm not going to try that test!

However, I got to thinking about what you said, so I got out my photographic spotmeter. I opened a blank Illustrator page on each monitor. Using an ev measurement, the Formac at full brightness measured 10 ev, with +/- .1 variation. The luminance of my CRT at full brightness averages 7.5, with variations of +/- .8 If I were looking at these as photographic subjects, the LCD is at least 4 times brighter than the CRT.

If you add in the excellent anti-glare characteristics of the Formac screen vs. the glass front on the CRT, the LCD is better there, too.
None of the above has to do directly with color, but I think I can confidently say that my LCD is brighter than my CRT.

However, I do think you're right about 99% of currently available LCD's.