[Thorzdad]

As a graphic designer, I'd like to pose this question to others in the field. Are you noticing any inroads being made into your business by clients using the Microsoft Office Suite? Increasingly, I and my friends have been getting requests from clients to provide our designs in formats that will allow them to use the designs in their office applications. Most commonly, we are asked to provide the designs as Word docs.
Obviously, they are looking to take the designs and run them off on their own color printers...perhaps even use our art as Word templates for future designs...designs they would create and produce themselves.
It seems that these clients seem to be under the opinion that they can and should do absolutely everything in Word. I have even recieved needed photos from clients, not as seperate files, but embedded in Word docs! It's like they live in Word. Obviously, they don't see any difference between what they manage to produce in Word and what a designer can do using the proper tools. Or is this merely the bottom line speaking? Is it that they don't care what it looks like if they can save the cost of a designer? Are printers seeing a loss of business due to these clients now producing and printing in office? It all just makes me wonder about our future...

[IceEnclosure]

Originally posted by Thorzdad:
<STRONG> Is it that they don't care what it looks like if they can save the cost of a designer? Are printers seeing a loss of business due to these clients now producing and printing in office?</STRONG>

everyone's a graphic designer these days, didn'tchya know?
I know of alot of people/clients that wanna do things themselves so they don't have to pay for it. Even if it means a reduction of quality. Hey, it's their business they'll run into the ground.. good riddance.
I say it's just harder these days to find a client who knows what the deal is---have a real designer do it, and it'll get done right, and look good

on the line of printers seeing a loss of business... we work next to a commercial printer, and he's been seeing a loss of business, not necessarily from MS Office 'designers', but from all over in general--printers are better and cheaper than ever, and people are trying to create their own work from design to output.


*keeps pluggin' along*

[Thorzdad]

I've been doing this for 20 years now and I can attest that "everyone" has been a graphic designer for years. Up until now, though, they just never had the tools to "prove" it

[MikeM32]

Where I work they've been tossing around whether they should get MS Word as-well. I think it's not happenin' since we're on the service bureu end of things and we have to output files to films.

My understanding is that Word isn't very flexible in a real pre-press/printing environment. Other than some rare files, we really don't get requests for files in Word format. We've usually managed to collect and translate Word files into QuarkXPress which is our primary app (this still involves alot of re-setting).

There's the added fact that almost nobody I work with has ever really worked with Word. I've some very light experience using it and it's definitely not for real professional page layout and typography. It's for secretaries IMHO

Mike

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Thorzdad:
<STRONG>As a graphic designer, I'd like to pose this question to others in the field. Are you noticing any inroads being made into your business by clients using the Microsoft Office Suite? Increasingly, I and my friends have been getting requests from clients to provide our designs in formats that will allow them to use the designs in their office applications. Most commonly, we are asked to provide the designs as Word docs.
Obviously, they are looking to take the designs and run them off on their own color printers...perhaps even use our art as Word templates for future designs...designs they would create and produce themselves.
It seems that these clients seem to be under the opinion that they can and should do absolutely everything in Word. I have even recieved needed photos from clients, not as seperate files, but embedded in Word docs! It's like they live in Word. Obviously, they don't see any difference between what they manage to produce in Word and what a designer can do using the proper tools. Or is this merely the bottom line speaking? Is it that they don't care what it looks like if they can save the cost of a designer? Are printers seeing a loss of business due to these clients now producing and printing in office? It all just makes me wonder about our future...</STRONG>

Didn't you know, Word is the only application there is? It does everything...

I hate Word personally. I find it a LOUSY word processor, honestly...

I will refuse to work with it.

[chris v]

Clients send me word files, and expect me to color seperate from them all the time! I tell them it's all right there in the name of the program--WORD. It's not called Microsoft Art for a reason. Mostly, I can't even get the files to open. When I can, I find myself rebuilding them from scratch, and billing the client my regular art time, which they were trying to avoid, + an aggrivation fee for the time spent messing with their word proccessing file.

"I've done the art in Word, but I typed you a nice letter in Photoshop, explaining everything."

AAARRRGGGHHH!

CV

[Thorzdad]

Originally posted by chris v:
<STRONG>Clients send me word files, and expect me to color seperate from them all the time! I tell them it's all right there in the name of the program--WORD. It's not called Microsoft Art for a reason. </STRONG>

Amazing! I was wondering if the Word plague was beginning to hit the pre-press guys.
In my office, it's not just Word. i've actually had VPs prepare memos and documents in PowerPoint! Not for a presentation, mind you, but as a printed document. Then they send it to me to "clean it up". Hello? The only way to clean up a layout done in PowerPoint is to drop it in the trash! I kid you not on this. I've been asked to create brochures using PowerPoint! You should see their reactions when I gently explain to them that PowerPoint is not a page layout tool. It's a combination of disappointment and "must be a problem with the Mac." That last reaction is my big concern. I'm trying to give them the sort of professional results that I am trained to provide. But all they see is another reason to get rid of the Macs.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally posted by Thorzdad:
<STRONG> You should see their reactions when I gently explain to them that PowerPoint is not a page layout tool. It's a combination of disappointment and "must be a problem with the Mac." That last reaction is my big concern. I'm trying to give them the sort of professional results that I am trained to provide. But all they see is another reason to get rid of the Macs.</STRONG>

Idiots... some people are oh so misinformed... but after all, that Mac over there is simply an internet device, yea?

[Thorzdad]

Originally posted by IceEnclosure:
<STRONG>Idiots... some people are oh so misinformed... but after all, that Mac over there is simply an internet device, yea?</STRONG>

No. Those Macs are just for graphics. They're way too slow to surf the internet.

[SunSeeker]

I used to run a poster printer as part of my last job and a powerpint file for a poster would give us about 10 hours repair work.
Print to eps fix the fonts and every other piece of sh**. So we generally used to refuse them.

If we made a test, most clients would say "isn't that good enough" and half of it would be missing.

Tell clients that Office doesn't support precise kerning or pixel precision or any of the productivity tools of professional software...

Like Shortcuts for grouping/ungrouping, zooming, changing tools, actions, navigator, info palettes etc. You can think of plenty more.

Also tell them that it is normal for a document to have screwy problems if opened in another version of office, even on the pc!!
Definitely not a Mac problem.

Office sucks for DTP

[Thorzdad]

Originally posted by SunSeeker:
<STRONG>...Tell clients that Office doesn't support precise kerning or pixel precision or any of the productivity tools of professional software...

Like Shortcuts for grouping/ungrouping, zooming, changing tools, actions, navigator, info palettes etc. You can think of plenty more.

Also tell them that it is normal for a document to have screwy problems if opened in another version of office, even on the pc!!
Definitely not a Mac problem.

Office sucks for DTP </STRONG>

You can try telling them, but I really doubt that they can see or understand the difference. Or maybe they just don't care.
I think their thinking is "But it was so easy for my secretary to make this in Word. What's wrong with your computer? Oh...it's a Mac."

And when Microsoft starts bundling-in their new image-editing piece, look out. "My secretary did the color correction."

[lland]

Lowest common denominator rule applies.

Let them get on with it!

Rise above it, yes everyone is a designer just not good ones.

I have been seen the changes and good designers are just that - no matter what media they work in.

As for Word - well that's another matter.

[sean barrett]

"the ignorant and hard-headed always got to see it to believe it"
Mos Def

Truer WORDS were never spoken

[bluedog]

I worked for a while in a corporate marketing department. When I first started there I was astonished to find the department of about 10 people was *ALL* using QuarkXPress. They used it for memos and correspondence and other documents. Now, not everyone was a designer and they had only had training in *how to use* the program.

The longer I was there, the smaller the department became. The company as a whole was downsizing (from 7000+ worldwide to now less than 4000). But in that time they were using Quark less and less and expecting more and more to be done in MS-OFFICE. The basic premise was, 'If we are going to use this again, it has to be in word/powerpoint because no one else in the company could use the documents and modify, tweak and wreck them.'

I came to the resolution it was better to simply give them less and tell them what was not possible so they would not come back to me for minor changes in documents created in Quark. We had a 30+pg/min color laser that cranked out tons of paper from powerpoint. While they were not designed documents, more people seemed happy.

Since then, the department crumbled to now only two people. I left when there was only four left and have a great job with a small marketing company and we only have *one* PC for compatibility testing -- just like it should be for a creative team doing primarily printed media. It was such a relief to have additional support on projects (as in the previous job I was the only one with experience).

There was a guy who worked at my current job, who refused to touch Office at all or learn them. Personally, I learn to use Office for the flexibility *I* can provide my clients and not because of *its* useability. Often I know it better than those who use it day-in and day-out, which always comes as a suprise to me (but the graphic background is likely what always helps).

On the topic of attempting to NOT do design in MS-WORD I recommend giving a straightforward notice to your clients that Word is *not* a publishing application and has many limitations. Give them the *best* approximation of a Quark layout with the reservation that it may or may not work well for them. Indeed there are all kinds of problems in versioning and platform differences. It has gotten *tons* better in Office98 and now 2001.

[pscates]

I've definitely noticed a "buy the receptionist some clip art and a color printer so she can be our new in-house graphics person..." trend over the past couple of years.

But the one thing thread original posted mentioned that I deal with DAILY is people sending me images embedded in Word, PowerPoint or Excel, despite my constant requests/pleas that they don't do that.

It's great that people want to spread their wings, get their feet wet, stretch out, help themselves, keep costs down, etc. But do yourself - and those around you who you work with - a huge favor and LEARN THE BASICS!!!

Learn the terminology, learn about resolution, learn about what programs are best for which results (in other words, don't lay out a text-heavy flyer in SuperPaint 3.0...).

Realize that there are particular software programs that are where they are because they are the real deal and they work and they deliver high-end, professional results (if used correctly). You're not going to get results like that with some $23.99 Page-O-Matic layout software you picked up at Wal-Mart.

Help us help you

And for the love of God, quit putting two spaces after a period, okay? Can we all get clear on this? NOTHING irks me more than to see something laid out faily cleanly and halfway well-designed, then you see these stupid, typewriter-based double spaces after each sentence.

There's a REASON it was done that way on typewriters...do yourself a favor and find out why and quit doing it on computers!!!



Okay, I'm done...

[chris v]

Preach on, brother!

CV

[pscates]

Can I get an "amen"? Whooooo! Glory! (wipes brow with hankerchief)

[Thorzdad]

I can shed a little light on these things. Thanks to the way M$ has integrated the Windoze OS with...well, with everything, you have a situation where users work seamlessly between apps. In fact, one ccould say that there are no "borders" between apps anymore. You can email directly out of Word, for instance. In fact, many office workers stay in Word all day. This is how we, on the Mac side, end up with emails containing Word docs containing embedded images. They probably don't even know it's happening that way. On their end, they are merely viewing an image and then sending it to you. And don't you love how Word bumps all image resolutions to 300dpi?
Similarly, I believe the "double space" between sentences in Word is a default action for Word. I get copy from marketing all the time spaced like this. And have you ever noticed the kerning from Word comes in at +25? Incredible.
I am old enough to remember working with actual type houses for typesetting. When the Mac came along, I watched an entire industry all but disappear. I'll be hanged if I'm going to stand by and watch a bunch of receptionists relegate design to a "boutique" endevour.

Originally posted by pscates:
<STRONG>...But the one thing thread original posted mentioned that I deal with DAILY is people sending me images embedded in Word, PowerPoint or Excel, despite my constant requests/pleas that they don't do that....And for the love of God, quit putting two spaces after a period, okay? Can we all get clear on this? NOTHING irks me more than to see something laid out faily cleanly and halfway well-designed, then you see these stupid, typewriter-based double spaces after each sentence...</STRONG>

[pscates]

I was always under the impression that double-spaces after a period was a holdover from the days of typewriters, where the font (for lack of a better word) was monospaced - each letter took up the same amount of space, whether it was an "i" or a "w", so to help break up sentences, two spaces were used after a sentence. That's what we all learned in high school typing class, right?

Computer typefaces are proportional width, with each character taking up a different amount of space. When you see two spaces after a period on computer-set type, it's too much. And it isn't professional-looking at all. One of the first signs and dead giveaways of an amateur.

Robin Williams (not the overrated, coked-up comic actor) talks about this extensively in her book "The Mac is Not a Typewriter", which is the first book I ever bought having to do with computers and graphics. I learned so much about what NOT to do and I recommend that book to anyone doing this sort of work.

So does Office automatically, by default, do the double spaces? I don't think so. I use Word and it does what I do. I think it's more the user than the software. Former typists using computers and simply not abandoning typewriter-based conventions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thorzdad:
[QB]As a graphic designer, I'd like to pose this question to others in the field. Are you noticing any inroads being made into your business by clients using the Microsoft Office Suite?

Microsoft Office! please note the key here is "OFFICE" Usually meaning office dweebs, therefore usually not knowing much about art and design, however they prolly could tell u something about how to make money. So, my point is quit whining about MS Office, its been here and will be here, learn to educate your "clients" on what you do, what you need and why you design graphics a particular way.

Remind your clients why they come to you, the fact they are trying to slip this stuff by means you are slacking in why they are secretaries and you are a "designer". They would'nt let you run their business why are you letting them run yours?

Word is for documents, PowerPoint is for making slides, if they want to make something else show them the "design time billing per hour chart" because you know that's what you will be doing when you redesign it in Illustrator or FreeHand etc, etc. They are "business" ppl not "art" ppl it's your job to subtly remind them of that. Don't let 10% of your customers become 90% of your problems. Your future is what YOU make it.

BTW I work on a PC and I come here to be more well rounded, it would pay you guys to do the same with PCs because it's not "if" but "when" you will have to work on one. Not that I think anything is wrong with Macs, there is plenty, as well as plenty wrong with PC's, I have and will continue to work with both OS's. More and more output devices are being run by Unix, Windows NT, with the networking usually done by NT. The more you know about the differences between Macs and PCs the easier it will be to deal with the cross platform issues.

Peace and Good luck all.

[funkboy]

Clients of designers let designers do work for a reason - they can't/don't know how/don't want to know how to do it. These people probably aren't doing design work because they don't know a whole lot about computers (otherwise, I'm sure they'd love to let the world see a rainbow gradient on the top of their monthly newsletter!) . When you pair a fairly low-knowledge computer user with Windows, you'll get Microsoft-generated stuff everywhere.

I think we're seeing more Word and MS-generated stuff (PowerPoint... oh god no... at least I can use MacLinkPlus to grab text from a Word document...) because the people working with designers are less and less computer savvy.
When secretaries (yes, I'm calling them secretaries because, personally, I find nothing degrading or demeaning about that title... another thread entirely ) , those who simply use the computer to do a few set tasks that are repeated throughout the day (add a new appointment, schedule a meeting, type up a brief memo) are supposed to use the computer to work with print-quality image files - something they've never done before - there's a problem on the part of the client not getting a user who is savvy enough with the computer to work with the designer. I think I'm tempted to say it's not the designer's fault, but the client's

If I get some file that I can't use, I try to get the person on the other end to send me a file that I CAN work with. I tell them, "Hey, try exporting it as a JPEG, or a GIF, yeah, it's probably near the Save menu..." and then let GraphicConverter or PSshop take care of the rest.

I admit this MS problem is definitely a problem, and I don't think it will get better until companies start realizing that they need to work with designers in a better manner - treating them as "the guys we had to pay THIS MUCH to make a @#$%ing newsletter" is, I think, an attitude a little too prevalent out there right now... once companies realize the worth of designers, then, through experience, they'll start assigning the right people to work with the designers.
$0.02

[cpatubo]

I work for a publishing company.

I'm really astounded by the amount of people who just don't read specs. We provide our clients with a kit that includes our specs, and we actually distribute the spec sheet many times over to remind them, as well as e-mail them off. But they refuse to pay attention to 'em.

"Well, it looks good on the screen. We use it on our website."

Um... duh!

People that cannot afford to use an agency try to do the work themselves, but they are hurting themselves in the process. They do not get an effective ad, and then they end up losing money that they could've had with a great ad designed by an agency or by us.

I just have to be a broken record. Maybe some day it'll get through their thick skulls.

[pscates]

Your post brings up a few things. We have a group of retail buyers over in the other department. They are also a "go between" and are responsible with supplying us with artwork, digital or otherwise.

We too have a spec sheet we've circulated about 4 million times and STILL we'll get 72ppi files or a PowerPoint file with low-res, unusable artwork, etc.

Maddening more than anything. After a while, you just want to say "WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE READ AND ****ING COMPREHEND A VERY SIMPLE SET OF INSTRUCTIONS?!?!?!?!?!?! HOW DID YOU GET A JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE?"

[Thorzdad]

It's amazing (and horrifying) just how much the web has influenced and altered things. I can't believe how much art (logos for our corporate partners) is supplied to me as 72dpi jpegs and gifs! Mostly art from their websites. These aren't stupid corporations. But their marketing people seem to be in a perpetual web-mode. I've actually had to re-build company logos in Illustrator just so I had something of a reproducable quality. They couldn't supply a simple eps for reproduction! Mosy of them don't seem to even understand what "reproduction quality" means.
The hell of it is they look at me like I'm some kind of dinosaur making unreasonable demands. It's that Word thing again. You can stick any kind of crappy art in it and it'll display it just fine. So, their thinking goes, it must be a problem with the designer!
"Generation D" my 44-year-old a**.

[cpatubo]

You're right, some people just can't seem to discern the difference between what looks fine on screen and what looks good in print. Their perceptions are totally whacked. I guess all we can do is try our best to explain, in laymen's terms, how their crappy 72dpi highly compressed JPG looks in print at 2400 dpi.

But our patience only goes so far, huh? It's like dealing with children. You gotta just keep tellin' em over and over and over... and *maybe* they'll get it.

Then they say, "Well, you're the graphic wiz, you can make it work." Who ever said we could work miracles? We can't make lemonade outta crap.