[Mastrap]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:


The tighter a budget someone is on, the less people care about peripheral issues like looks. Looks can seal the deal, but being too expensive will definitely kill it if the budget won't stretch.

Not trying to be argumentative, but wouldn't the success of the iPod suggest otherwise? Although being neither the cheapest not the best specced player out there is is certainly the best looking. And look who owns the market?

Apple will never again produce a CRT screen, not with Steve at the helm. And good riddance to them too, in my personal opinion. The only place where they still have a right to exist is where 100% colour accuracy is important, in pre-press and image manipulation.

I think that people asking Apple to sell a cheap screen do not understand what Apple is trying to do here. The mini is not the end of the purchasing road as far as Apple is concerned. It's an Apple Light, something to draw the user from the world of the PC to the world of Apple, as you've suggested. Apple is hoping that once hooked the next purchase will be an iMac, a PB or a tower.

Apple would not have released the mini without taaking an in-depth look at the market. I suggest that their findings would have supported the idea that the majority of PC users use a USB keyboard and a compatible screen. That is all that matters. Apple has no interest in new users buying a mini, if that's where you are then go and buy an eMac/iMac.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Not trying to be argumentative, but wouldn't the success of the iPod suggest otherwise?

Not necessarily. I suspect there are still more users of cheap regular CD players than any type of mp-3 player. At least, that is my impression walking about town and riding the subway - even in a wealthy city.

Apple will never again produce a CRT screen, not with Steve at the helm. And good riddance to them too, in my personal opinion.

I'm not arguing that Apple should make a CRT screen, only that they should make them easily available to buyers of their new entry-level computer who happen to buy them in the Apple store.

The fact that you say "not with Steve at the helm" and then give your own personal antipathy toward them kind of makes my point for me. What I suspect drives this decision is what Apple management and other wealthy enthusiasts think of cheaper screens, not what the buyer of a $499 computer would think. Many of those people would no doubt prefer a $1000 20" LCD. But if they could afford that, they probably wouldn't be in the market for a $499 cpu, would they?

Remember, the mini isn't aimed at people like you. It is aimed at people with lesser budgets and lesser interest in computers.

I think that people asking Apple to sell a cheap screen do not understand what Apple is trying to do here. The mini is not the end of the purchasing road as far as Apple is concerned. It's an Apple Light, something to draw the user from the world of the PC to the world of Apple, as you've suggested. Apple is hoping that once hooked the next purchase will be an iMac, a PB or a tower.

No, I suspect Apple hasn't quite figured out what Apple is doing here. If they really want the mini to be a hook to get people to switch, then the Apple store should be making it as easy and as cheap as possible for people to switch.

They should not throw ideological roadblocks in their way, and should not make the kind of arguments you just made with me about affordable CRT monitors. You don't argue with the customer. Never! All that is going to do is turn away the very people Apple should be trying to hook -- customers who don't yet have any commitment to the Apple brand.

[Millennium]

A lot of people here don't seem to understand Apple's target market. At all.

Apple is targeting people who already have a perfectly good monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Given the bath they're probably taking on these devices, I see no need for them to make things which will not sell, because the target market does not need them.

Granted, if someone else makes these things, Apple should sell them in their stores, possibly as a bundle. But I can't help but ask yet again: why must Apple make absolutely everything for absolutely everybody?!. This "all-Apple or nothing" attitude has got to go.

And for crying out loud, these things come up with stuff to hook the box up to a TV if you're really that desperate for a monitor. Low resolution, but awesome screen size, and at no extra charge

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Granted, if someone else makes these things, Apple should sell them in their stores, possibly as a bundle.

That's all I am saying. They should sell the third party monitors in their stores. I don't understand why that idea bothers people.

You can't assume that every switcher has a good monitor. Several I know (including me) waited until their old monitor died before switching.

[jbartone]

I was just thinking, if you plug in a USB keyboard and mouse, all the USB slots are gone!

That sucks.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I hate to break it to you and Thunderous, but Apple isn't avoiding the low end of the market. It just launched a $499 computer.

The idea is to get the masses hooked. It's a good idea.

somebody posted links up above to a $399 Dell that INCLUDES a monitor.

but yeah, half-touché, sorta.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by jbartone:
I was just thinking, if you plug in a USB keyboard and mouse, all the USB slots are gone!

That sucks.

hub'em.

[ink]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
hub'em.

... which, like he said, sucks.

[jbartone]

Originally posted by ink:
... which, like he said, sucks.

Yeah. I don't really want to buy a hub that's like, half the size of the Mac Mini itself!

Screw it. I'll just go BT. Does anyone know any really cheap-ass BT KB+Mouse combos?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Gonna have to go with anecdotal evidence here (granted, not the best kind) but I have to agree with thunderous et al on this one. I know many people who are perfect Mac mini ‘target buyers’, people who’ve already owned a computer(/s) for years; many of them own older desktop computers that they’ve upgraded while they kept an eye on Apple over the years from a distance. The types that say: “I’d love to get a Mac to replace my PC- or my aging Mac that I’ve had for years- but the G5 is beyond my budget range, and an iMac/eMac screen is actually a downgrade to the Samsung 19” LCD monitor I have.”

There are people that for years have had to resort to finding a deal on an older hand-me-down G3/G4 desktop from a second-hand source. This isn’t profitable for Apple, or completely satisfying for the buyer, or an expansion of the Mac market, despite the fact that these are Mac users.

Yesterday I was with a group of co-workers gathered around someone’s computer eye-balling the new Mac mini. I haven’t seen the same level of group interest in anything Apple since the G5s first came out. Several people made comments like: “It’ll beat the stuffing out of the Mac I have now,” (meaning an older G3 or G4 desktop they’ve been making due with.) Several have had nothing but PCs at home, but because they work in a creative industry, want a Mac at home too. A few already were making plans to buy a Mac mini. All of these people already own a computer and their monitor of choice. The only immediate ‘gratification delay’ roadblock I can foresee, is some of them having to buy a USB keyboard- but for many of those that own an older Mac, that’s not even a problem.

I don’t think Apple is necessarily aiming this at computer newbies. I think they know there’s a huge potential market of already comp-savvy people who’ll be interested in the mini, enough to make it a success. Personally, I think they’re on to something.

[itai195]

Simey's point seems pretty simple to understand -- the Mac Mini is for switchers, but that's not to say some newbies wouldn't be interested either. Just sell some third party CRTs in the Apple Store, it's not such a bad idea.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by itai195:
Simey's point seems pretty simple to understand -- the Mac Mini is for switchers, but that's not to say some newbies wouldn't be interested either. Just sell some third party CRTs in the Apple Store, it's not such a bad idea.

That, and I challenge the assumption that ALL switchers already have a serviceable monitor.

Reading Crash's post, I'm wondering if we simply have in mind a different group of people when we say "switcher?" When I think of that, I don't think first of a computer-savvy graphics professional who already has an expensive screen. I think of the average user in the street who uses a PC at work and needs something for the house.

That's not necessarily a complete newbie. It could be someone like I was when I switched. I had a couple of PCs before I got my Mac 3 years ago. The last one still ran Windows 95 and had a crappy 15" monitor. I threw it all away. The idea of replacing the CPU but keeping the little beige screen, keyboard, and mouse would not have seemed sensible to me.

I'm still not a power user around here. I get the impression sometimes that those who are have a hard time thinking down to our level.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by jbartone:
Yeah. I don't really want to buy a hub that's like, half the size of the Mac Mini itself!

Well, then don't.


That one's by Ultron, it's USB 1.1, but it works fine for all low-speed peripherals, including my USB 1.1 audio interface.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That, and I challenge the assumption that ALL switchers already have a serviceable monitor.

Reading Crash's post, I'm wondering if we simply have in mind a different group of people when we say "switcher?" When I think of that, I don't think first of a computer-savvy graphics professional who already has an expensive screen. I think of the average user in the street who uses a PC at work and needs something for the house.

That's not necessarily a complete newbie. It could be someone like I was when I switched. I had a couple of PCs before I got my Mac 3 years ago. The last one still ran Windows 95 and had a crappy 15" monitor. I threw it all away. The idea of replacing the CPU but keeping the little beige screen, keyboard, and mouse would not have seemed sensible to me.

I'm still not a power user around here. I get the impression sometimes that those who are have a hard time thinking down to our level.

So when are you buying your first Mac?

Wait, you HAVE ONE? That makes no sense.

-s*

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That, and I challenge the assumption that ALL switchers already have a serviceable monitor.

Reading Crash's post, I'm wondering if we simply have in mind a different group of people when we say "switcher?" When I think of that, I don't think first of a computer-savvy graphics professional who already has an expensive screen. I think of the average user in the street who uses a PC at work and needs something for the house.

I think we (and more importantly Apple) are thinking of different users. I think Apple is targeting "computer users", over complete newbies. My parents (specifically my mother) are a classic example. My mom’s no computer pro, by any stretch of the imagination. But she is a computer user- has been for years. Her idea of ‘upgrading’ the crappy PC she uses, was a decent 17” LCD. The monitor is more important to her than the CPU. The CPU is hidden somewhere on the floor under the desk, the monitor is front and center. She doesn’t sit and stare at the CPU, she obviously looks at the monitor all the time, so it actually has more immediate importance to her.

I just don’t think it’s all that unreasonable in 2005 to expect that a great number of people already own computers, and would threfore have monitors they don’t mind looking at for hours on end, especially in an era when a CRT runs less than $200, or an entry level flat panel $300.

Could Apple stock a few third party CRTs and LCDs in their stores to play to the 'newbie' crowd? Sure, that’s a valid point. But I’d wager Apple’s own research has told them that their intended customers for the mini are at least ‘tech savvy’ enough to either already have a monitor they like, or know where to get one on their own.

It’s funny, but I actually see the lack of a USB keyboard as a greater obstacle than the monitor. Many people, even the greenest computer newbie can easily find a decent monitor virtually anywhere, in any decent electronics store, but a USB keyboard? Comparatively speaking, those are much harder to come by, and far less common. Most general purpose electronic stores would be more likely to stock only PC compatible PS2 keyboards.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
So when are you buying your first Mac?

Wait, you HAVE ONE? That makes no sense.

-s*

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I think we (and more importantly Apple) are thinking of different users. I think Apple is targeting "computer users", over complete newbies.

They may be, but it shouldn't really be either/or if the intent is to gain market share -- which is what "switching" is all about.

My point was simply that if you lure a switcher into an Apple store, it makes little sense to tell them to leave that store and enter a competitor's store to buy something that you know full well a sizable percentage of them will be buying at the same time as a new computer. Just flog 'em a cheap third party monitor if they want one, or not if they don't.

I used to run and independent camera store when I was younger. I can't imagine refusing to stock necessary accessories just because the customer might already have them. Film, sir? No, we don't sell film. Go to Jessops to buy your film. Only, whatever you do, don't look at their cameras while you are there.


I agree with you on the need for a keyboard adapter and also mouse adapter. But at least there the Apple store sells products that would work. That problem can be simply fixed by a staff member asking a question and pointing out the potential issue during the sale.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

It's a rather weak argument to claim that Apple needs to offer options for people like you, considering that you *probably* couldn't be using a Mac if they didn't already.

Seeing as you didn't have a monitor, mouse, and keyboard available when you switched - what was your choice?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
My point was simply that if you lure a switcher into an Apple store, it makes little sense to tell them to leave that store and enter a competitor's store to buy something that you know full well a sizable percentage of them will be buying at the same time as a new computer.

I think we’re defining ‘switcher’ differently. A switcher to me, by the very definition, is switching over from one platform’s CPU to another. In order to switch they already have a monitor they were using on whatever it is they switched over from. I gave the example of my mother- she already loves her 17” monitor, why would she be looking for a new one simply by switching the CPU?

In her computing ‘world view’ changing over to a Mac would at the most basic level mean the image displayed on her monitor would be Mac OSX, not Windows XP, and she’d have the cool little mini unit up on her desk, not on the floor. ‘Switching’ for her, wouldn’t include her monitor -which she already 'upgraded' at her leisure anyway.

If she went shopping for a new PC, it’d be the same situation- she’d be looking for a new CPU, not a new monitor. There are plenty of PC makers who recognize her type as a target customer, who would be happy just to sell her a new CPU without a monitor. Apple has just added itself to that list.

My best guess is, Apple’s bean counters have already done the math with regards to the cost in store/warehouse space for 3rd party monitors (hefty I’d bet), vs. projected mini sales to ‘switchers’ who are savvy enough to own obtain a monitor, and figured out the later is more profitable.

I guess time will tell if they were right. If they aren’t, then we’ll probably see third party monitors show up in Apple stores and online.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
It's a rather weak argument to claim that Apple needs to offer options for people like you, considering that you *probably* couldn't be using a Mac if they didn't already.

I think you simply misunderstood the point I have been making. It's not that Apple is raising an impossible hurdle. Just one high enough to discourage many of the people they are hoping to convert to their brand.

It's also specifically related to the way consumers shop, which is to say, often quite impulsively.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I think you simply misunderstood the point I have been making. It's not that Apple is raising an impossible hurdle. Just one high enough to discourage many of the people they are hoping to convert to their brand.

I believe the point of the Mac mini is that it's effectivey REMOVED a HUGE hurdle that was discouraging a LOT of people from converting to their brand - which is that the cheapest Mac systems all came with a monitor.

The number of people affected by your backwards-argument is negligible, considering that Apple hasn't actively blocked this handful of prospective switchers, but rather embraced a huge crowd of their peers.