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My Experience Switching to PCs
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EMC
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:23 AM
 
No painfully repetitive advertising campaign. After owning only Macintosh computers for my entire life, I decided to make the switch to a PC for my newest computer. I'd like to share my "experience" and give some perspective into what it means to use a macintosh computer.

My last macintosh (which I still own) was a Powerbook G3 Lombard Laptop. A beautiful computer in its prime, I still keep it around as my only portable computer which I have running mac OS X 10.2.

My newest computer is a PC desktop I built myself, starting with an ASUS A7V333-Raid board and an Athlon XP 2200+ processor. It was either this computer or a dual-processor Quicksilver that I was considering purchasing, and I opted for the PC to save money, have a more configurable system, and as I thought at the time, giving up a superior operating system (Max OS X) for superior hardware. After using this PC for six months though, I've had plenty of time to reflect on these ideas.

A bit of history: Throughout my life I had been exposed to PC computers at school, at work, at friends' houses. My feeling was that Windows was a poor excuse for anything, let alone the largest selling operating system. It always seemed to crash, error, hang, or generally screw up. Fixing problems always required a serious amount of time, know how, and I always got the impression that the rest of the world was naive for choosing PC over mac.

My macintosh computers (running all the versions of mac os from 6.04 to 9.1) faired much better. Sure, crashing was commonplace, but nothing required more than a simple restart, and I could always troubleshoot problems by removing an extension or two, or deleting a preferences file. No uninstall programs. Simply place in trash and empty it. For years I waited patiently for Mac OS X, an operating system with protected memory and preemptive multitasking. The operating system that would make the mac the unequivacally superior operating system. Way too much time passed and finally it arrived. It's undeniably better than Classic, rarely crashes and is very pretty. It runs on my laptop but not very well, and as I headed off to grad school, I realized it was time to get a new computer.

I did some research, asked around, then finally decided on a PC and built it. First off, I recommend that anyone who buys a PC and feels they have the technical know how to build their own computer should do so. You'll save lots of money, and you'll get a better computer that is more suited to your use.

Now to explain my Windows XPerience. I am running Windows XP professtional. The first thing to say is that this operating system is nothing like Windows historically. Like OS X, it has preemptive multitasking and protected memory. Like OS X, it is extremely stable. In fact, in my 6 months of owning this computer, it has never crashed. Not once. The worst thing I did was install a incompatible driver, which I had to subsequently remove and system performance was recovered. Mac OS X on the otherhand crashed once a month on average. Always for a different reason, but I did see more than my share of kernal panics. Regardless, both systems are stable enough for home use.

Next category is speed. I have a slow macintosh. However, I've used the new dual quicksilvers. Quartz extreme and all, mac OS X feels undenyable slower than XP. I admit that the mac GUI is prettier, but all of those graphics tax the system and it is evident.

Usage. I use tons of applications from Matlab, to Office, to photoshop, to videogames. Regardless, 90% of my computer time is spent surfing the internet. Regardless of what you think you use your computer for, if you have broadband internet, you'll see the browser is the most frequently used app. One think that XP has over mac is browsing speed. This is hands down astonishing. The windows browser is much, much faster than Mac OS IE, mozilla, netscape, opera, or Omniweb. Web pages appear much quicker, and are more compatable. Java apps work more reliably, Adobe PDF files can actually open in the browser, Macromedia flash is smooth and fluid instead of choppy, and I didn't have to buy a 2nd mouse to get a scroll wheel which is one of the most time saving features I have ever used. Try browsing on a fast PC and a fast Mac. there is no comparison here.


Features.
In mac OS X, I had iPhoto to organize images. It was great. I didn't need to install anything, just put in my camera, download the images, organize them, and order prints. The prints I ordered always looked a bit washed out, but I figured that was the state of the industry.

Now with my PC, I was a bit worried. I saw those mac adds that said it would take me all day to install drivers and what not. For the hell of it, I plugged in my camera without installing anything. Immediatly, a window popped up with all my images. (surprising how that worked) I transferred them to my disk and to my surprise, the actual windows operating system automatically showed me a window with thumbnails of all my photos. XP has the option to view picture folders as scalable thumbnails. So, unlike on the Mac where I have to open iPhoto, on the PC, I simply open the folder with the pictures. On the side I have the option to scale and rotate. Just like iPhoto, but there all the time. But what about prints? Select the photos and on the side of the folder is an option to order prints. However, unlike on the mac, you are given the option to order prints from 3 different retailers. One of them is the Kodak Ofoto used by mac. As a test, I ordered prints from all 3. What I found, is that "Shutterfly" makes prints that are incredibly more vibrant than Kodak. I can order digital prints that look exactly like traditional photos. It is a shame that iPhoto cannot order from Shutterfly.

As for Mp3 player, I will compare iTunes vs Winamp. iTunes is great. Winamp is customizable but not as good. Here the mac has the PC beat.


Office suite. Runs much faster and better on the PC. (No surprise here). All that talk of OS X office being better because of quartz? Not true. I've used both and can say that they are just using that as a marketing gimick. It is much more integrated and better on the PC.

Control Panel. The PC has more setting and options than you could believe. Just about any possible option is configurable. The problem is that finding them is a nightmare. Configuring the mac is easy. Too bad is very limited in configurability compared to the PC.

Problem Solving. The PC has a very interesting function known as system restore. Completely behind the scenes, the PC archives system settings and files. In the case of a crash or unrecoverrable system error, you can reset the system to any previous state dating back weeks or months. There really is no mac equivalent to this. This is a huge breakthrough in system security.

Updates: OS X is updated once every 6 weeks on average. XP is updated in some way every 2 weeks. This results in faster bug fixes. This is a shame, because OS X has many more bugs.

Dock vs. Start Menu. I prefer the PC start menu over the dock. Like on the mac, open applications are shown at the bottom of the screen. Unlike the mac, I can access my programs through the start menu. When you use 20 or so apps like I do on a regular basis, the start menu is better because it is not space limited in the way the dock is.

I guess I will end my rant here, but my final point is this: The mac is undoutably easier to learn how to use. For those who feel intimidated by computers, it is the better way to go. For people comfortable with computers, I feel that the PC is (here it comes) just a better solution all around. It does everything the mac does and more. You'll constantly be surprised at the features and ingenuity in Windows XP. And more importantly, you'll get a faster, cheaper computer.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:31 AM
 
Originally posted by EMC:
Regardless, 90% of my computer time is spent surfing the internet.
Enough said. Some of us actually make their living with their computers.

Look, nobody cares. We all know that PCs are better for certain tasks. Macs are better for other tasks. Macs offer the better experience for me, they are cheaper to run, they ofer the applications I need. Otherwise I'd be a Windows user. Actually no, with all the security flaws and big brother mentality of Microsoft I'd probably be a LINUX user. But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

Thing is, it doesn't matter. PC's are good computers nowadays. So are Macs. Get what you rocks your boat.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:32 AM
 
EMC, well said. I have found my eXPerience similarly enjoyable switching to PC's after 7 years of usings Macs. However, the maclots here don't want to know the truth. No, they'd rather keep a stereotypical image of Windows 9x crashing ramdomly.

I must critized you on one point and that is you neglect the hardware side of the story. Not only are Macs two to four times as expensive, but half as fast, all for OS X which is undeniably more bloated and resource intensive than XP while boasting far fewer applications and optimization.

Be prepared to be called names and personally insulted.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Codename:
Well said. I have found my eXPerience similarly enjoyable switching to PC's after 7 years of usings Macs. However, the maclots here don't want to know the truth. No, they'd rather keep a stereotypical image of Windows 95 crashing ramdomly.

Be prepared to be called names and personally insulted.
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!



This is a Macintosh board. I don't got to PC boards to slag them off. So why on earth do you think that you need to do a similar thing here? If we're deluded leave us to it. What's it to you?
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Mastrap:


Thing is, it doesn't matter. PC's are good computers nowadays. So are Macs. Get what you rocks your boat.
Maclot to reality translation: Apple doesn't have a future.

It used to be that the Mac was the one and only computer that was the best almost everything a workstation or personal computer did.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:42 AM
 
Originally posted by Codename:


Maclot to reality translation: Apple doesn't have a future.

It used to be that the Mac was the one and only computer that was the best almost everything a workstation or personal computer did.
You are an annoying little child, aren't you?



So what if Apple goes down the drain in a couple of years? We buy new computers. Where's your point? Who cares? We need the right tool to do the job, nothing else matters.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:45 AM
 
I'm ¢onvin¢ed!!

Actually, I'm seriously considering the PC for my next computer, because of the same reasons you bought yours. Money, and because I would probably be better off with a PC for what I use my computer for.

Let me ask people who know.. What is digital movie editing and finishing like on the PC? I know Mac has some great apps that I don't really use right now but plan on using when I get a digital camcorder, but can I do the same thing in WinXP?
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:51 AM
 
Originally posted by L'enfanTerrible:
I'm ¢onvin¢ed!!

Actually, I'm seriously considering the PC for my next computer, because of the same reasons you bought yours. Money, and because I would probably be better off with a PC for what I use my computer for.

Let me ask people who know.. What is digital movie editing and finishing like on the PC? I know Mac has some great apps that I don't really use right now but plan on using when I get a digital camcorder, but can I do the same thing in WinXP?
Yes you can. Adobe Premier is a very good editing program for the Windows platform. Personally I prefer Final Cut Pro because it is clearer laid out (Premiere suffers from windows overload) AFAIK there is nothing thats comparable to the ease of use and elegance of iMovie.

What are you using your computer for?
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:05 AM
 
Originally posted by Mastrap:


Yes you can. Adobe Premier is a very good editing program for the Windows platform. Personally I prefer Final Cut Pro because it is clearer laid out (Premiere suffers from windows overload) AFAIK there is nothing thats comparable to the ease of use and elegance of iMovie.

What are you using your computer for?
Currently, I use my Lombard G3 for surfing/chatting, some word processing, a little photoshop here and there, and listening to music. I don't have an mp3 player, but I'd like an iPod. Apparently they've got'em for PC's now, so that won't matter. I want to take up photography, but alas, no digital camera (or SLR for that matter ) and I also am interested in doing some digital movies (pr0n muahaha).. I'd also like to rot my brain with counterstrike and ghost recon a little more than I do now, which is not at all. But games aren't really that important, its the digital media that I am worried about with the XP platform.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:18 AM
 
Originally posted by L'enfanTerrible:


Currently, I use my Lombard G3 for surfing/chatting, some word processing, a little photoshop here and there, and listening to music. I don't have an mp3 player, but I'd like an iPod. Apparently they've got'em for PC's now, so that won't matter. I want to take up photography, but alas, no digital camera (or SLR for that matter ) and I also am interested in doing some digital movies (pr0n muahaha).. I'd also like to rot my brain with counterstrike and ghost recon a little more than I do now, which is not at all. But games aren't really that important, its the digital media that I am worried about with the XP platform.
For what you're talking about I'd stay with a Mac - an iBook sounds like the perfect choice for you. Wait until they go G4, max out the ram and you're flying.

iTunes is the best music player out there, iMovie is the editor of choice for non professional work.

Maybe just get a cheap second hand PC and see if you like it.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:30 AM
 
Well, damn, the first fifteen times I heard this I didn't believe it. Now I'm convinced.

FS: iBook 600, 384 megs of RAM, 20 Gig HD. It can be yours for only $6,000 USD.

I would need to re-buy a lot of Apps.
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:30 AM
 
Good (and fair) review, codename.

I use Mac for a # of reasons but for pure speed, PC still rules.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:31 AM
 
*shrug* I can see the reasons but for now I still love my mac, why?

It's beautiful. It IS no reason to pay four times as much, and etc, etc, etc, but I used PCs 1/3 of my life, and this is what i say:

Before I had a mac, I used what MS offered, Visual Studio, Windows, and Office. I didn't make major professional websites, I didn't do my own webserving, and I sure as heck didn't do graphic arts.

Now I use dozens upon dozens of different programs and basically am like a swiss army knife, not only do I program, but I do web development, AND graphic work.

I could (and will eventually) take up video work as well.

Truth be told I can switch back to the PC world now, as it is, but I'm tired of seeing the same old thing all the time.

Change is good, that's what I say, and perhaps for a lot of people here, you feel the challenge and need to use windows.

Right now, I'd rather not worry about how updated my system, or virus protection is, and prefer not to have to defrag and backup my system every few days.

Most of all, you guys say you surf the web a lot, have you ever noticed how those popups have evil little download things built into them normally?

Yeah, I can't disagree, Internet Explorer on the PC is far superior to any linux or mac app ever made, of course, it was made by a company that put billions of dollars into paying top programmers.

Is office better on PC than on mac? Hell yes, why? Because Microsoft is selling THEIR product... but I'd rather not have to call microsoft because I reformatted my hard drive and office won't install anymore because my verification key expired!

I also hate opening installers and being asked for a CD key!

So yeah, there are many tradeoffs here, namely speed, and perhaps even productivity.

One thing I really love about my mac is the ability to hide windows, it's like having virtual desktops, another set of things you just can't do with windows (there is an app for OS X that supports virtual desktops, maybe for windows too)..

There's also no large site (except c-net) for getting PC programs.

Did I mention I hate it when every time I go online I have more system updates? Worse yet, they are crucial and are nearly required for security. No thanks.

There are soooooo many reasons I prefer PC to mac, one being that itunes is infinately better than any PC mp3 player.

And yes, there's still linux usability in OS X, something I need for survival.

Am I a mac zealot? My name says so, I've been accused of it, and I still have a few PCs around, heck, I might even replace my mac with a PC one day, but frankly....


The macintosh platform has given me one very important lesson no microsoft OS could ever give me.

Speaking of configurability, you must be stoned, as I can change practically every visual and audio element in OS X with a few mouse clicks and text edits.

For example, my alert sound is custom, my volume adjust sound is custom, heck, even the icons for brightness, eject, volume, and mute, are all custom.

I can even, with a few mouseclicks, make pretty much any app on my system brushed metal, and even REARRANGE the apps to be more COMPATIBLE WITH ME!!!

What more can I say? I actually build and sell PCs every now and then (note: waaaay prettier than those pipe machines), and such, but my mac is still my primary work machine.

And speaking of which, I actually tried to add Mac OS X usability onto my PC running windows XP, want to know what the 'XPERIENCE' was?!

I had to install about half a dozen apps, all shareware (you have to pay for it!!!! :o ), and looked crappy as hell, worse yet, they sucked up resources like "seven savage jews" (anyone hear that in all in the family? lol.... no I think everyone deserves religious beliefs of their own, etc, just heard archie bunker in the background and thought it was funny)....

So anyway.....

Get what works best, if you feel you need a PC, I'm all for it. Personally I still haven't found a PC Laptop that I was madly in love with as much as the tibook (which I am saving up for), nor an OS as beautiful or functional as OS X, and still generally hate PC.

Like some people, though very few, I consider myself a nerd, an outcast, a person who doesn't fit in with society, I'm 15, and know more about computers and engineering than most 40 year olds do! It comes natural to pick an OS that's also considered the oddball, as, not only do I enjoy the OS, but the group of people who use it!

Something about OS X however, makes me feel connected, it's just different, so different that I like it. I like pulsing blue buttons and red yellow and green widgets, I like having my systray at the top instead of the bottom and I like having my dock with ALL my apps right where I need them!

I like being able to look at my screen and know instantly what's going on, I like being able to see everything and having an OS where I don't have to be asked what I want to do.

Windows XP, no matter what i do with it, still reminds me of a bike with training wheels.... screw with windows too much and your registry (oh gawd the one thing I really hated with my guts about windows) goes kabluey!

NO! I must have independant programs and a beautiful interface, I'm madly in love with the aqua interface, and my rounded computer that looks like a square bubble, I love my monitor that cost 10 times more than monitors better than it because it looks different.

I just like the fact that when people walk into my room, the first thing they see is my computer, and they ask me, "Is that... a computer?!"

I love it, I love being different, I hate floppies, I love giving my teachers web addresses to my assignments instead of floppies, heck I love telling people about how my computer has a terminal right on it and I can essentially do anything I want.

You have to remember, when your computer becomes a MAJOR part of your life, you will be deeply effected by how it looks.

I spend easily 8 hours a day at my computer, it is my main interest and hobby, it's the tool I get my work done with and the way I write things down, it's the way I get out and talk to the world, and the way I humor myself.

Why not? It's cheaper to sit back, talk, play a few games, and generally be happy with my pathetic fake life then go watch movies and basically be and think exactly what executives who get paid millions of dollars each year want me to.

Heck, I love standing out damnit! I'm happy to be who I am, and love it when people look at me and ask their friends why I'm not like them, darnit, I want to be different, I want to think different, and I wish other people would too!

Even if it isn't as good as thinking the same or being just like everybody else, it feels better to me!

Ya know, now that I think about it, I don't give a damn if I have to pay 8 times more and get something 3 times slower just to be different than the rest of the world because I WANT TO BE DIFFERENT DAMNIT!

I love not having to worry about viruses, I love to not have to worry about system updates, and heck, I love not having to give a damn about the internal parts in my computer because I know it was built to work, last, and in some places, these things are kept on for months, heck even years on end!

I love my life, my computer, and am proud of it, and if you feel like offending it, I'm here to make you feel so sorry you'll never regret it, trust me, people have tried.

So go and use your damn PCs like every other joe shmoe and stupid moron in the world, go ahead, worry about your disk defrags and scandisk and your reboots and all that crap, but NEVER EVER make fun of my life, or the computer I use!!!!!!!!




THINK DIFFERENT!!!!!!!
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:59 AM
 
Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
*shrug* I can see the reasons but for now I still love my mac, why?

<snip>
For example, my alert sound is custom, my volume adjust sound is custom, heck, even the icons for brightness, eject, volume, and mute, are all custom.
</snip>
THINK DIFFERENT!!!!!!!
OT: How do i customise the volume adjust sound in 10.2? And what do you mean the icons for brightness eject, volume, and mute are custom? Screenshot? Thanks in advance.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 08:05 AM
 
(Not about PCs, but about Windows...)

One of the few things I actually like in the Windows OS is the way most applications look and behave from this "interface" point of view: in many apps, it feels much better, IMO, to have by default one main window (truly maximisable, if necessary) with internal sections delimited by resizable and detachable panes/frames, rather than the mess of many Mac apps (especially the Carbon and Classic ones), where there are too many free-floating windows and palettes (sadly, often not "dockable", in the MS meaning) around the screen. The Taskbar is also another Windows feature that, currently, is more advanced (feature-rich) than the Dock - even if the KDE panel is even better, IMO...

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Oct 28, 2002, 09:50 AM
 
buy one of each

you can find mac bargains and pc bargains. use both and your life will be made much more productive.

my one big comment is that the easy usability of Macs are just not appreciated by newbies and amateurs. I am a professional and i too enjoy the ease of use. There is nothing like the not worrying about viruses, crashing and odd OS behavior.

In my experience, OSX has yet to crash but XP generally gives me more problems. Both however are excellent OS choices.
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Oct 28, 2002, 10:18 AM
 
Doesnt matter whether m$ finally got their act together to make a coherent OS, but some aspects of M$ EULA's are enough to cause a revolt in me everytime I use Windblows:

"You acknowledge and agree that Microsoft may automatically check the version of the OS Product and/or its components that you are utilizing and may provide upgrades or fixes to the OS Product that will be automatically downloaded to your computer,"

"You agree that in order to protect the integrity of content and software protected by digital rights management ('Secure Content'), Microsoft may provide security related updates to the OS Components that will be automatically downloaded onto your computer. These security related updates may disable your ability to copy and/or play Secure Content and use other software on your computer. If we provide such a security update, we will use reasonable efforts to post notices on a web site explaining the update."


Dont miss that, "Reasonable efforts to post notices" part

All the very best dude! Keep updating your XP every two weeks!

Oh btw, all those rumors I have been hearing about how its becoming difficult to upgrade your machine while you use XP is probably worth it as well!
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 10:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Mastrap:

This is a Macintosh board. I don't got to PC boards to slag them off. So why on earth do you think that you need to do a similar thing here? If we're deluded leave us to it. What's it to you?
I'd be interested to hear the answer to this myself. Codename? Care to fill us in?
Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.

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Oct 28, 2002, 10:27 AM
 
Originally posted by EMC:


My last macintosh (which I still own) was a Powerbook G3 Lombard Laptop. A beautiful computer in its prime, I still keep it around as my only portable computer which I have running mac OS X 10.2.

Next category is speed. I have a slow macintosh. However, I've used the new dual quicksilvers. Quartz extreme and all, mac OS X feels undenyable slower than XP. I admit that the mac GUI is prettier, but all of those graphics tax the system and it is evident.
limited experience with the latest mac desktop vs the latest pc is unfair kind of too

i find osx great on a original tibook but geez...you're using a old non-g4 laptop vs high end pc desktop

for your critique to be more valid, i think more time with dual 1.25s is necessary
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:10 AM
 
you're using a old non-g4 laptop vs high end pc desktop
Heh, I caught that too. Too bad he can't compare Apple's latest and greatest to his "homebrew" machine.

Do people actually get a kick out of building their own computer? I must be lazy, I found it boring & a pain in the ass. What a waste of time, I could've been doing something else.
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:17 AM
 
A very balanced and fair review, I must say. I work as an IT Consultant and have hit nothing but brick walls and flat out refusals when I try to bring Macs into the environments of current/future clients. It's become so frustrating!

Windows XP, Win2000 Pro, Windows 2000 Server and Windows Small Business Server are very good packages overall for small offices. Are they as elegant as the Macintosh? No. Are they as well integrated? No. Are they as pretty? No. But when it comes down to bang for the buck, we are losing very badly.

Apple is falling further into niche markets and sadly, those niche markets are becoming less securely "Apple Territory". Look at the Adobe sales Windows/Macintosh over the last 10 years. Back in the day 70%+ of Adobe Apps sold to Macintosh users, today the figure is in the low 20s.
(From a recent ArsTechnica discussion, please excuse the lack of direct source).

I want Apple to suceed as much as anyone else here, but we cannot do that with our heads in the sand unaware of where everyone else is going. We are NOT an insulated market in our own little world. We ARE dependent and operate based upon the market conditions of the Wintel universe-whether we like it or not.
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:23 AM
 
Another problem is when we say, "buy a computer that best fits your needs." While I agree with that statement on principle-increasingly, the computer that 'fits peoples needs' is based on the Wintel design.

For example, for a small office (which comprise something like 75% of all IT purchases in this country) who deals primarily in MS Office applications, basic database, emailing, contacts, printing, and perhaps basic DTP, what is the best tool? Most likely a Mac would be best. But when you through the 'fudge factor' into the equation (Money, mindshare, training), Windows is the way to go.

As an example-I could simply shoot Apple Retail for not permitting me to customize a 17" iMac WITHOUT the damned superdrive. I have a 25 client business where I wanted to install iMacs. When I showed the specs to the client the balked and said, "cut those damend superdrives and save me some money". When I responded "sorry, can't do that." He said, "Go buy me some cheap-ass Dells that will do the job."

A small, but relevant example of the daily battles I face here. Not everyone does DTP, video, et al. Moreover, as I've stated, those markets are increasingly well served by Wintel versions of the necessary software.

Does anyone else notice that "the best tool" is less frequently a Macintosh? It's kind of like gasoline: I know that premium is probably better, but is it really worth the extra $.15/gallon? Probably not, unless explicitly stated.
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:43 AM
 
Originally posted by tgrundke:
A very balanced and fair review, I must say. I work as an IT Consultant and have hit nothing but brick walls and flat out refusals when I try to bring Macs into the environments of current/future clients. It's become so frustrating!

Windows XP, Win2000 Pro, Windows 2000 Server and Windows Small Business Server are very good packages overall for small offices. Are they as elegant as the Macintosh? No. Are they as well integrated? No. Are they as pretty? No. But when it comes down to bang for the buck, we are losing very badly.

Apple is falling further into niche markets and sadly, those niche markets are becoming less securely "Apple Territory". Look at the Adobe sales Windows/Macintosh over the last 10 years. Back in the day 70%+ of Adobe Apps sold to Macintosh users, today the figure is in the low 20s.
(From a recent ArsTechnica discussion, please excuse the lack of direct source).

I want Apple to suceed as much as anyone else here, but we cannot do that with our heads in the sand unaware of where everyone else is going. We are NOT an insulated market in our own little world. We ARE dependent and operate based upon the market conditions of the Wintel universe-whether we like it or not.
I agree with you that it is a very balanced review even though like other said he is comparing a Lombard to a "Home Brew" PC. Unfortuanately it is a fact that Companies are not well informed on the Mac. I think if you told them that it could be integrated into there network with not problems and it could save them money and you could show them it may help. liscencing fees for M$ server stuff? SUCKS Plain and simple. OS X is 1000 dollars for unlimited liscenses. That to me is bang for the buck. You could install OS X server on several Macs even older ones that are able to run OS X and not have to pay a per seat liscense for each. That right there will save money and make the Mac better on price. Though it's ashame companies aren't as informed as they should be about this they just use what everyone else is.
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:52 AM
 
Originally posted by typoon:


I agree with you that it is a very balanced review even though like other said he is comparing a Lombard to a "Home Brew" PC. Unfortuanately it is a fact that Companies are not well informed on the Mac. I think if you told them that it could be integrated into there network with not problems and it could save them money and you could show them it may help. liscencing fees for M$ server stuff? SUCKS Plain and simple. OS X is 1000 dollars for unlimited liscenses. That to me is bang for the buck. You could install OS X server on several Macs even older ones that are able to run OS X and not have to pay a per seat liscense for each. That right there will save money and make the Mac better on price. Though it's ashame companies aren't as informed as they should be about this they just use what everyone else is.
Typhoon:

I agree with you 100% on the licensing fee issue. Sadly, the cost savings of OS X server are often offset by the following:

1) Cost to replace Wintel software with Macintosh versions (even at the current 'discounted' $199 MS Office offer, that means an office of 25 clients would spend $4900 switching!)

2) Training costs to move people to Macs (do you know how many phone calls and site visits you will have to make for the first few weeks to get everyone up to speed? sad...)

3) High price of Macintosh hardware at the offset.

4) Lack of customization of Apple hardware (Don't need that SuperDrive, but I do need that 17" iMac...grrrrr)

Etc. etc. The "switch" cost is often greater than the cost savings, even if amortized over several years.

Granted, this is not the case for everyone, but for the majority of my clients, the 'switch' does not make as much sense as Apple would have us believe.
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:55 AM
 
Originally posted by Mark Tungston:


limited experience with the latest mac desktop vs the latest pc is unfair kind of too

i find osx great on a original tibook but geez...you're using a old non-g4 laptop vs high end pc desktop

for your critique to be more valid, i think more time with dual 1.25s is necessary
Mark:

You are correct in principle-but for the love of god, the 1.25 ghz PowerMac is $3300 before you begin to customize it! I have almost never been able to recommend Apple's 'high end' systems because of the ridiculous prices being asked.

Ever wonder why Apple has had so many spiffs, rebates, and offers on their PowerMac line? Because for the performance, they are horribly overpriced.
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Oct 28, 2002, 11:55 AM
 
I use a Mac because it is what I like and It allows me to get my work done. I don't have to worry about viruses and other such things. the poster said that Windows has updates more frequently. I agree mostly it is a security update fo sometype ont a bug fix. You need to wait for M$ to come out with a service Pack before you get yoru updates. Apple as well posts Updates only when they are needed and come up with there "service Packs" every couple of Months. Unlike M$ who takes at least a year to come out with a service pack. I do A Lot of work on Pc's as a consultant as well and I've ever spent so much time downloading this or that security update than I have with ANY version of windows. I recently updated a Machine I had to Download like 8 updates and I had to install them individually and reboot after each. talk about a Pain in the backside and wasting my time. It does help me as I charge by the hour but I have better things to do than sit at someone's computer to get it up and running, I'd rather install everything at once and have it reboot once and be done with it. Using OS X and the software update even though it is not a secure connection I can download everything at once let it install it all then if a restart is required I can reboot once. then I'm off again. No need to go back an check to see if I got all the updates or if I need to update again and again. Updates are fine if they actualy fix something. about 90 percent if not more of the updates you get for Windows is some type of security update. it doesn't really fix any of the bugs in the OS. When you go to the windows Update site it tells you that you can only download this update by itself and not anything else. then you need to reboot and get back online to install another update. What a waste of time and energy.

I have built PC's for people and for myself. It's nice because you learn alot but it is also a pain in the butt.

I am a Mac user always have and always will be.
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Oct 28, 2002, 12:48 PM
 
damn Joe, you really did suck on a PC... i don't want to even go through and correct half the **** you posted, good thing you switched your giving us a bad name...

cnet only... bwahahaha... too funny
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 12:51 PM
 
Originally posted by typoon:
doesn't really fix any of the bugs in the OS. When you go to the windows Update site it tells you that you can only download this update by itself and not anything else. then you need to reboot and get back online to install another update. What a waste of time and energy.
stupid Nt trick for restarts, pres Ctrl\Alt\Delte pnce goto processes and shutdown explorer, then click start new process and type in explorer... boom instant restart, 90% of windows restarts is to update explorer to the new software enviioment, and by closing and reopening explorer you can avoid them.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 12:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Nimisys:


stupid Nt trick for restarts, pres Ctrl\Alt\Delte pnce goto processes and shutdown explorer, then click start new process and type in explorer... boom instant restart, 90% of windows restarts is to update explorer to the new software enviioment, and by closing and reopening explorer you can avoid them.
Does this work with all versions of Windows?
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Oct 28, 2002, 01:20 PM
 
Originally posted by typoon:


Does this work with all versions of Windows?
win2k and xp for sure, and supposidly nt4, but i didn't use nt4 so i can't vouch for it... and not really in the 9x series since you can't start any programs without explorer well..
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 01:22 PM
 
I was going to buy a PC too in my next purchase. Until I used my parents XP box for awhile. I can't tell you how many times I have had MS's little GUI paint bug pop up. You know the one I am talking about, where the Explorer messes up, the GUI no longer works but paints windows all over the screen when you move them. XP still has Win9X bugs, it still has that not finished feel. The GUI still flickers, Photoshop still acts weird with Windows compared to the Mac, (What is with that shell in the background? Why can't I see my desktop?) Windows cursor focus is still not as precise as a Macs, (Big no no in pixel editing) XP still has crap color output, XP still has major font problem,

All the reasons I use a Mac, XP still hasn't fixed.

Until MS gets it's butt in gear, I wont be switching.

If 90% of what you do is browse the web, by all means get a XP box.

I am not a gamer, so games mean nothing to me.

There is zero reason except getting a cheaper box for me to switch.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 01:28 PM
 
Originally posted by fat mac moron:


Heh, I caught that too. Too bad he can't compare Apple's latest and greatest to his "homebrew" machine.

Do people actually get a kick out of building their own computer? I must be lazy, I found it boring & a pain in the ass. What a waste of time, I could've been doing something else.
It's called a hobby. Some people are good with their hands.

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Oct 28, 2002, 01:57 PM
 
I think I'm in a situation similar to EMC's.

All my life I used Apple computers. It started with the black Bell+Howell Apple II's donated to my local school district. It may end with the Power Macintosh G4 (PCI Graphics) I bought in college.

After I graduated from college, my parents bought me a Sony VAIO MX (the older S10 model). It's extremely overpriced and underpowered, but it has more AV features than anyone could ever use. Better yet, it looks cool. (Though if I were spending my own money, I would have bought a cheap Dell box instead.)

The original purpose of this system was to test Web pages. Over time it took on more tasks. The reason: Mac OS X.

Palm took forever to release a Mac OS X version of Palm Desktop. It took Microsoft even longer to make Entourage sync with it. (Yes, there was always the Classic option, but it was too slow.) I have since been synchronizing my Palm IIIxe with my VAIO instead.

Of course Palm and Microsoft weren't the only ones taking their times in updating their wares for Mac OS X, others took their time as well. Apps may work in Classic mode, but it isn't ideal. And while Carbon versions are out now, most of them feel like hacks (which is to be expected with the first versions). With the exception of BBEdit, all of the apps I use are available for Windows and do not feel like hacks. I am in the process of getting Windows versions of apps I use for this very reason. You can argue that future Mac OS X versions of these programs will likely be better, but I need to get work done now, not then.

And then there's the Mac OS X UI. While Jaguar has improved it greatly, it's still not anywhere as good as the OS was before Steve Jobs decided that he knew better than all the human behavior research that had been done within Apple's walls. Windows also has interface issues, but if I have to choose between two questionable interfaces, I'm going with the one the majority uses.

Finally, there's the issue of speed and bugs. Again, Jaguar improves greatly upon previous versions of Mac OS X, but some things remain that shouldn't have been there to begin with. Resizing a window shouldn't slow the system to a crawl. Yes, Windows XP has its share of bugs and performance issues, but they aren't as obvious as the ones in Mac OS X.

Whether or not I continue buying Macs will depend on what my next job is. My last job (Web Design) pretty much required that I keep a Mac around. If my next job doesn't require a Mac, I may just sell it and get a second video card for my VAIO.

And Mac Zealot, I think you're wrong about Office for Windows being better than Office for Mac. The context-sensitive floating window in the Mac version is much more useful than all the additional features and superior speed the Windows version.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 02:06 PM
 
I built my PC a month ago to ensure all the parts work fine with BeOS but I'd never give up my Mac. You get what you pay for.
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Oct 28, 2002, 03:18 PM
 
LOL.

I did suck as a PC user. We all do when we use PCs.

It's funny how when I switched i went from suckage to rockage.

Btw: graphics will be at....

http://www.talesmud.com/muteicon.jpg
http://www.talesmud.com/brightnessicon.jpg
http://www.talesmud.com/ejecticon.jpg
http://www.talesmud.com/volumeup.jpg
Ergh.


Ok, the instructions are at:

www.talesmud.com/icons.zip.

If you cannot get to www.talesmud.com, im me at Joe7464685192 (AIM) And I will send it to you personally.

Note: Talesmud.com's dns just changed so it may be about an hour before you can get there.

Sorry, ISP cuts me off sometimes, I really hate it when they do that!!!
( Last edited by Mac Zealot; Oct 28, 2002 at 03:35 PM. )
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:00 PM
 
mac zealot,

in your long post...

i've known tourist people from japan who can speak more clearly and write better than you
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:14 PM
 
Originally posted by EMC:

Updates: OS X is updated once every 6 weeks on average. XP is updated in some way every 2 weeks. This results in faster bug fixes. This is a shame, because OS X has many more bugs.
wait... what??????

yea i have an Xp machine... and i couldnt live without these updates... just last week i got an update that made sure that my entire harddrive wouldnt be erased by entering a certain link to the Microsoft Help library

and thanks god for Win2000 service pack 3... i wouldnt know what to do if M$ hadnt posted this update that sends them what you have installed (with the serial numbers) to them

M$ doesnt update... it tries to fix its fsck-ups.... Win2000 shipped with 50000 known bugs... if you dont think that there are a comparable ammount in Xp you need a reality check right quick
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 04:56 PM
 
no it shipped with over 50k REPORTED bugs... meaning some werre fixed, others being duplicates and some not being bugs at all... there is a big difference there
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 05:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Phanguye:


wait... what??????

yea i have an Xp machine... and i couldnt live without these updates... just last week i got an update that made sure that my entire harddrive wouldnt be erased by entering a certain link to the Microsoft Help library

and thanks god for Win2000 service pack 3... i wouldnt know what to do if M$ hadnt posted this update that sends them what you have installed (with the serial numbers) to them

M$ doesnt update... it tries to fix its fsck-ups.... Win2000 shipped with 50000 known bugs... if you dont think that there are a comparable ammount in Xp you need a reality check right quick
First, you could live just fine without those updates. Do you read the KB/SB associated with those updates? What are the chances of you typing the link into MS Help or go to an unknown site that knows exactly that is contained in a certain directory or etc. that could wipe out your entire HD?

Yes, XP make plenty of updates to fix its security problems but AFAIK, I have not read a single instance of of people getting fvucked by the 'entire HD being wiped out' by entering a link into MS help/lured to a foreign web site/ etc.

Furthermore, if OS X was used by 95% and XP by 5% of the market, you bet your ass the # of bugs in OS X would shoot off the charts. [Ditto with virus, too.)
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 05:23 PM
 
Originally posted by Codename:
EMC, well said. I have found my eXPerience similarly enjoyable switching to PC's after 7 years of usings Macs. However, the maclots here don't want to know the truth. No, they'd rather keep a stereotypical image of Windows 9x crashing ramdomly.

I must critized you on one point and that is you neglect the hardware side of the story. Not only are Macs two to four times as expensive, but half as fast, all for OS X which is undeniably more bloated and resource intensive than XP while boasting far fewer applications and optimization.

Be prepared to be called names and personally insulted.
Notice that no one has called EMC any names, or personally insulted him. That's probably because his discussion, even if flawed in places, is reasonable and balanced and written in good faith. You, on the other hand, have an agenda and engage in hyperbole and gross exaggeration. So you shouldn't be surprised at the responses you get.

Mastrap has said all that needs to be said: Use what suits you best. No big deal.

I might drive a Miata. My neighbor might drive a van. Both are vehicles that get us from point A to B, but for a variety of reasons, all valid, we choose different types. No big deal.

I mostly use Macs and, even with their flaws, I enjoy using them. I like OS X. I love iMovie, among other things. I like Apple's innovative and integrated approach to things. I don't have to justify it to anybody. When called for, I use a PC. If someone else gets more out of using a PC than I do, that's fine. No big deal.

If Apple is never more than a niche company, that's fine with me. I don't care as long as they keep innovating and putting out products that I enjoy using.
     
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Oct 28, 2002, 06:12 PM
 
Originally posted by Nimisys:
no it shipped with over 50k REPORTED bugs... meaning some werre fixed, others being duplicates and some not being bugs at all...
They still didn't fix Win32 API exploit... oh, wait. They can't. Hah. *snort*
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Oct 28, 2002, 06:48 PM
 
Originally posted by klinux:


First, you could live just fine without those updates. Do you read the KB/SB associated with those updates? What are the chances of you typing the link into MS Help or go to an unknown site that knows exactly that is contained in a certain directory or etc. that could wipe out your entire HD?

Yes, XP make plenty of updates to fix its security problems but AFAIK, I have not read a single instance of of people getting fvucked by the 'entire HD being wiped out' by entering a link into MS help/lured to a foreign web site/ etc.

Furthermore, if OS X was used by 95% and XP by 5% of the market, you bet your ass the # of bugs in OS X would shoot off the charts. [Ditto with virus, too.)
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Oct 28, 2002, 06:55 PM
 
Originally posted by zigzag:


Notice that no one has called EMC any names, or personally insulted him. That's probably because his discussion, even if flawed in places, is reasonable and balanced and written in good faith. You, on the other hand, have an agenda and engage in hyperbole and gross exaggeration. So you shouldn't be surprised at the responses you get.
Yeah really. Unlike this lil troll who's already gotten shot down in other threads and yet's still here inching towards the same FUD he's posted before.



Originally posted by zigzag:

If Apple is never more than a niche company, that's fine with me. I don't care as long as they keep innovating and putting out products that I enjoy using.
Yeah really.
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:19 PM
 
Please allow me to add some color to this troll-parade with:



Jeez00s! htf does it matter what EMC thinks!
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:20 PM
 
I used a Macintosh my entire life but I didn't realize that they suck until now.

My last Macintosh I had was a PowerBook... I mean, my last PowerBook was a G3 Lombard. It's an absolutely beautiful computer, but my PC has it beat hands down; so I don't know why I said that. Nevermind. I still keep it around to support my coffee table. Don't get me wrong. I think they're the best computers around, but they work better as a table support.

My newest PC is a computer I built myself using my pocketknife and gum wrapper. It has a Matrix XP3021A***K83007anDa Socket RAID 32chipset-B enhanced SuperBUS KA-58 motherboard with an Athlon XP 2200+ CPU. After using a Macintosh for my entire life I thought that 6 months would be sufficient amount of time to base all my comparisons on. Mac OS X would be great if it didn't suck and ran on hardware that sucked.

I am now running WindowsXP Professional. This is absolutely nothing like the previous versions of Windows, even though it's still Win32, runs off the same kernel, and has a facelift. It's like MacOS X except it doesn't suck. One time I installed a driver for my mouse and the entire system screwed up, but I was able to fix it. I threw away the mouse. I've left my computer on for 6 months straight and it's never crashed, it runs perfectly, I don't know how I lived without it. MacOS X crashes at least once a day. But regardless, both systems are stable enough for home use.

Comparing with my 300MHz laptop, I found that XP is undeniably faster on a 2.2GHz Athlon.

Apple used their predictable FUD to try to divert me from using a PC. They had me all rivaled up and worried. After running a full install of XP Professional with support drivers, I decided to plug in my camera just for kicks. It worked! Unlike MacOS X, I could open my pictures from a folder. No wait, you can do that on OS X too, but they don't have cute thumbnails. No... wait.. you can have thumbnails. Ok, scratch that. Just take my word, WindowsXP is better with cameras. I decided to order prints from three different companies just to show how much Apple sucks, even though it's Kodak. Being able to set contrast and brightness aside, I think that everyone should order through Shutterfly. They use lower exposure settings to save you that extra time. I don't remember who the third company was, I was just throwing them in for good measure.

I like iTunes.

Microsoft Office ran faster when integrated with Microsoft Windows. Too bad Microsoft doesn't own Apple so they can integrate Office into MacOS X. Pretty colors just doesn't do it for me anymore.

As for problem solving, PCs have it beat hands down. If my system goes down after installing the driver to my USB scanner, I can just restore it with the archive that's been running in the background. There's nothing like that on the Mac... except for iSync, Retrospect, Norton Utilities, and Silver. But aside from those, there's nothing like it. Backing up data is a revolutionary breakthrough in security that's never been done before, Microsoft is ahead of their time.

MacOS X is updated every 6 weeks on average, mostly for software they don't write such as Apache, SSH implementation, etc. Windows is updated twice a week which shows that Microsoft is crunching down on those bugs, except for one which they can't fix and the bunch they refuse to tell us about do to national security. But it's not like anyone will hack my computer. That stuff only happens on TV and movies like Hackers.

The Start menu is better. I know I said 90% of the time I just use it for webbrowsing. And God knows we need 2GB of RAM and a 5GHz processor for that. But actually, I use 20 applications at once constantly. I use Netscape, Mozilla, Explorer, Opera, Entourage, Outlook, AIM, ICQ, MSNIM, Photoshop, Illustrator, GIMP, Premiere, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Doom III, Unreal Tournament, and EverQuest all at the same time and it won't clump up the task bar. Pffft, I don't think there's even that many applications on the Macintosh so I don't know why they even HAVE a dock.

I'll end my rant here. No wait, a few more things. Windows PCs are better, Macs suck. PCs can do everything Macs can do, but better, faster, and cheaper. Just because PCs are superior in every single way (except iTunes) and that WindowsXP is intuitive, ingenious, superb, perfect, and is the best thing since sliced bread... don't let that get in your way. I'm completely unbiased in my decision. I say whatever floats your boat.
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:26 PM
 
Originally posted by starman:


It's called a hobby. Some people are good with their hands.

Mike
People who build ships inside of glass bottles or build motorcycles out of matchsticks are good with their hands.

People who build their own computer aren't fabbing their own processors or creating their own SCSI connections. You take part "A" and push it into slot "B" or tighten 4 screws and attach a cable.
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:30 PM
 
Originally posted by fat mac moron:
You take part "A" and push it into slot "B" or tighten 4 screws and attach a cable.
When was the last time you saw only 4 screws and A cable in a PC?
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:32 PM
 
Originally posted by olePigeon:


When was the last time you saw only 4 screws and A cable in a PC?
I should've added more, huh?
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Oct 28, 2002, 07:49 PM
 
Originally posted by EMC:
Dock vs. Start Menu. I prefer the PC start menu over the dock. Like on the mac, open applications are shown at the bottom of the screen. Unlike the mac, I can access my programs through the start menu. When you use 20 or so apps like I do on a regular basis, the start menu is better because it is not space limited in the way the dock is.

You see, statements like these make me think that you don't use your compters enough to come to accurate conclusions. You can create your own version of a start menu in OS X just by placing your application folder in the Dock. To see all your apps, right click the folder.

Little things like ripping mp3s are much easier on a Mac. Out of the box, one can do this using iTunes. With Winblows, I have to either rip a WiMP file or download a third party app.

No, Winblows does not suck as bad as many Mac users would like to believe; but if you are going to compare the two systems be sure you are making a fair comparison.

"Sing it again, rookie beyach."
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hayesk
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Oct 28, 2002, 09:10 PM
 
Originally posted by Codename:
EMC, well said. I have found my eXPerience similarly enjoyable switching to PC's after 7 years of usings Macs. However, the maclots here don't want to know the truth. No, they'd rather keep a stereotypical image of Windows 9x crashing ramdomly.
My friend installed XP and his keyboard would not work. That's right, his keyboard - not a camera, not some wierd peripheral! It worked fine in NT, 98, but not in XP.

XP works great for some people, but not for others. Windows is still far more inconsistent than MacOS, I still can't trust it to work perfectly. My time is important to me, I'd rather not waste time trying to get my keyboard to work. And I won't even get into Microsoft's draconian anti-piracy policies.

XP is good for some people, and not for others.


Be prepared to be called names and personally insulted.
I won't call him names and insult him, because he was only relating his experiences. He did not say "XP always works perfectly for everyone, and anyone who disagrees is obviously an Apple apologist" and insinuate stupid and insulting things like "they'd rather keep a stereotypical image of Windows 9x crashing ramdomly." Only a windroid troll would say things like that.
     
 
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