[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Well, what they are doing is quite obvious. They are taking certain real life political "topics" and situations and are mixing them up and presenting them from a different perspective (the "suicide bombers" are now the "good guys" etc.)

It's important to note, however, that Tigh is not presented in a positive light: everyone opposes the move except for him and Duck. The other Resistance members obey him, but everyone protests.

But then, if they're so complicit, are they really any better than the ones planning the bombing? Clearly this scene was meant as a slap at someone, but who? It could be seen as an attack on mainstream Islam for failing to police its own, just as easily as it could be seen as an attack on the West by putting suicide bombers in the role of the "good guys."

This is, again, another thing I like about the show. Yes, it's very politically charged, but again, it's difficult to really tell whose side the writers are on, because they've been very careful about the "no easy answers" thing.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

questions to ask about the hybrids: how strong will they be? (withstand stairs?) can they download themselves to new bodies?

And another question: can they be programmed like full-blooded Cylons?

[RAILhead]

For all the people here (and at other sites) that are griping about Season 3, let me remind you: you've only seen ONE episode. It's a bit too early to be making claims about how the season will be.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's important to note, however, that Tigh is not presented in a positive light: everyone opposes the move except for him and Duck. The other Resistance members obey him, but everyone protests.

That was what I liked about it. I was concerned it was going to just be another "Aww, suicide bombers are people too!" thing, but Tigh seems like he's lost his mind. It makes for some interesting moral complexity.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's important to note, however, that Tigh is not presented in a positive light: everyone opposes the move except for him and Duck. The other Resistance members obey him, but everyone protests.

Yes, and unlike Kr0nos, I enjoy this angle: the `good guys' use of suicide bombers has never been covered in a TV series and or movie I'm aware of. Also, Tigh's argument that `it's not different than sending soldiers on suicide missions' is certainly an intriguing thought and actually a reason why I watch and like BSG so much.

And one of the things you forget: the Cylons do seem to want humanity to survive and they do what they do `because they have to'. (Whether it's for their own benefit, they seem to have trouble to reproduce, or genuine concern (along the lines of `I, Robot'), I don't know.)

Originally Posted by Millennium

This is, again, another thing I like about the show. Yes, it's very politically charged, but again, it's difficult to really tell whose side the writers are on, because they've been very careful about the "no easy answers" thing.

They've tried to point that out time and again in the podcast as well: they see one of the major appeals of the show that they don't necessarily take sides, although they present arguments of both sides. This is also reflected by the storyline as well, I think it was Adama who once even said `in the end, you have to make up your own damn mind.'

[reader50]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

... but Tigh seems like he's lost his mind ...

Tigh is doing what it takes to get the job done. He needs to make the occupation untenable, and keep the Colonials from becoming complacent about it.

Unfortunately, the Cylons have confiscated most of the guns. So Tigh is using whatever is available, and it's requiring some dirty work. Seems to be working too, the Cylons are extremely unhappy about the latest tactics.

I don't think Tigh has lost it. For example, he agreed to pull back the graduation operation if Baltar was not in attendance. In other words, he remains focused on tactical goals, not on bombing anything in sight.

He's right too, about not letting human casualties stop an operation. If the Cylons notice that places don't get hit if a human is there, they will round up "volunteers". A human woman with kid will be tied up at every critical facility.

[Chuckit]

So the sane choice is to kill lots of humans in order to stop the Cylons from…not killing humans? Seems kind of like "He's got a cold — let's chop off his legs!" to me.

And yeah, the Cylons are unhappy about those tactics, which has led them to actually start killing people. Way to go, Tigh — you managed to cause massive casualties for your own side! (And that's even what he said he wants. He isn't about hurting the Cylons; just creating wanton death and destruction.)

[scottiB]

I'm loving Tigh, and it sees RDM is giving him the juiciest lines:

"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that."

That and the matter-of-fact narration of losing his eye ("like a hard-boiled egg') is really fantastic.

[Chuckit]

Tigh needs a proper eyepatch, and he needs to start saying "arrr" more. Then he will be complete.

[reader50]

The Cylons were already killing people. Admittedly, probably fewer of them during the occupation - but way more before that.

From the webisodes, anyone caught with guns apparently got shot up. Including the temple people. Also, some that were rounded up just dissappeared. The vanished can't all be like Kara, locked up in a comfort cage. Most won't be coming back.

btw, to those wondering how many people died in the Cloud 9 explosion. It's between 6 and 7 thousand. There were 49550 people before the explosion. Afterwards, there were 39192 citizens of New Caprica City. When the fleet jumped away, 2000 civilians were aboard. Galactica and Pegasus both had in the vicinity of 2000 crew each before the explosion (way below spec) and half their crews had gone down to New Caprica.

49550
- 39192 New Caprica citizens
- 2000 Civilians still in the fleet
- 2000 Military crew still on BSG & BSP

Allowing for rounding of numbers, you get between 6K and 7K casualties.

[Millennium]

Well, so much for the glowing red spinal cords...

NBC? N-B-frakkin-C?! Excuse me; I think I'm going to be sick. Assuming they ever show the miniseries or Seasons 1 or 2 at all, this thing is going to be censored to kingdom come, and that's assuming it survives long enough for that to happen...

[jokell82]

I actually don't mind the change. It's the same parent company (Universal) so it's possible for them not to be censored (it's not like they show stuff on BSG that they can't on network TV).

I'll be very happy if this means weekly HD eps.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by jokell82

I actually don't mind the change. It's the same parent company (Universal) so it's possible for them not to be censored (it's not like they show stuff on BSG that they can't on network TV).

Isn't it usually the network that employs censors?

And network censors can be really weird. The CW wanted to censor the line, "Let's go find my BFF, Dick" on Veronica Mars.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Millennium

My guess is that the "old" Cylon models were the ones who created the first Agents. They set the Agents up in charge out of brutal mechanical logic: they're newer, better models, so they should be in charge. These older Cylons were self-aware, at least to the point of being able to fight the Cylon Wars. It is even possible that some or all of them downloaded their consciousnesses into the first Agents, in order to bootstrap the cycle of death and rebirth.

Once the Agents were in charge, they set about creating new Centurion and Raider models. They made the "new Centurions" nonsentient for their own purposes, while the Raiders were made semi-sentient so that they could retain their knowledge and skills after being destroyed.

I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it but...

The original Cylons that retaliated against humans must have been self aware or they wouldn't have fought back. I am not conformable thinking that the toasters "Evolved" into the human form as you don't slowly transition from a fully mechanical robot to a human that is indistinguishable from real humans in under 50 years.

The Toasters must have started a new project to make human cylons for the only purpose of infiltrating the colonies for attack OR they wanted to evolve from a self aware mind in a tin body to a mind with a real body. Even then I don't understand how these human ones got in control or if they human ones were the ones who started the religious thing or if the tin cans did and though making human models was the will of their god.

I do understand now how the current centurions have no self awareness just not how the humans are in charge.

Something else on that topic... are the centurions fully robotic or part biological?

If the raiders are part biological and can be resurrected and have personalities (scar) doesn't that mean they are self aware?

[Chuckit]

I presume the intelligent Cylons transferred their minds into the human bodies, leaving the more animalistic minds to the Centurions and Raiders.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Who does this Season 4 - onward Deep Space 9 character remind you of?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Who does this Season 4 - onward Deep Space 9 character remind you of?

Kind of reminds me of Worf.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

BSG moving to NBC:

http://www.battlestargalacticasite.c...it_survive.php

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Who does this Season 4 - onward Deep Space 9 character remind you of?

He reminds me of Bynarr, Lord of Hell, but with more hair:

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

The original Cylons that retaliated against humans must have been self aware or they wouldn't have fought back. I am not conformable thinking that the toasters "Evolved" into the human form as you don't slowly transition from a fully mechanical robot to a human that is indistinguishable from real humans in under 50 years.

I agree, but see below.

The Toasters must have started a new project to make human cylons for the only purpose of infiltrating the colonies for attack OR they wanted to evolve from a self aware mind in a tin body to a mind with a real body. Even then I don't understand how these human ones got in control or if they human ones were the ones who started the religious thing or if the tin cans did and though making human models was the will of their god.

A lot of this does depend on the history of the Cylon religion, that's true. Current Cylons seem to be obsessed with the Cylon God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply," and for some reason they insist on doing this through sexual reproduction. The question is: how far back does this go?

If this goes back as far as the Cylons do, then creating human bodies is a logical step in this process. Fully mechanical Cylons aren't going to be able to reproduce sexually, so some kind of biological body is needed. The first Agents were the result of these efforts. This leads to three important questions, however: where did the first Agents' personalities come from, how did the Agents come to be in charge, and where did the old Centurion models go?

My theory provides an answer to all three of these questions at once: most of the old-style Centurions downloaded into Agent bodies. This explains where the first personalities came from (bootstrapped from old Centurion personalities), where the old Centurion models went (they became the first Agents), and how the Agents came to be in charge (see below).

Number Six comments that some of the old Centurions are still around. These could have been old Centurions who, for whatever reason, chose not to download (or were not allowed to download). As another possibility, she also comments that the old Centurions "have their uses," though she doesn't elaborate. Perhaps this is still how new Agents are created: they're built as an old-style Centurion, their personalities are programmed as machines, and then the consciousness is downloaded into an Agent body.

This two-step process would also explain why the Cylons are not satisfied with their current methods of reproduction. Their initial births are still not into humanoid bodies: that part of the process still has to be bootstrapped via an old-style Centurion, and to them this is a sign that they have not truly reached "fruitfulness" yet.

I do understand now how the current centurions have no self awareness just not how the humans are in charge.

By this theory the leaders of the mechanical Cylons downloaded into Agent bodies, and then they just picked up where they left off.

If the raiders are part biological and can be resurrected and have personalities (scar) doesn't that mean they are self aware?

Clearly they must have some kind of sentience. However, Sharon has compared them to "trained animals" several times, which would seem to imply that their sentience is of a lower degree than that of the Agents. It's difficult to say whether or not they're actually self-aware, and some of this gets into philosophical issues of whether or not animals are self-aware.

[Chuckit]

Thinking about it more, maybe there were only 12 cylons that became fully sentient, and that's where the 12 models come from.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

YouTube - This Season on Battlestar Galactica

[forkies]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Who does this Season 4 - onward Deep Space 9 character remind you of?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's important to note, however, that Tigh is not presented in a positive light: everyone opposes the move except for him and Duck. The other Resistance members obey him, but everyone protests.

Well, as somebody already pointed out, the authors are not trying to take sides, or moralize about the issues, and I think that is precisely the reason why they are switching things around so much - they're trying very hard (IMO too hard) not to "take sides" or make value judgments.

That's not the problem I am having though - it's the theme "itself". The whole occupation/resistance thing just isn't very appealing to me, and, as I already stated, some of the characters have become less interesting than they've been in the previous 2 seasons.

I'm sure the show's going to pick up soon though.

[bstone]

has anyone considered what BENEFITS the Cylons have brought the humans on New Caprica? Medicine? Food? Other supplies? It would be interested to figure out.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by bstone

has anyone considered what BENEFITS the Cylons have brought the humans on New Caprica? Medicine? Food? Other supplies? It would be interested to figure out.

They don't seem to have gone over that in the first two episodes much, but it's worth noting that the standard of living seems to be basically the same at the beginning of Season 3 as it was at the end of Season 2. The biggest example of this is probably that the only things the Cylons seem to have actually built was a prison (as we see Tigh, Starbuck, Cally, and Roslin in at various points) and a few apartments for themselves (as we see Ellen and Cavil in). Even Baltar still lives on Colonial One: the Cylons didn't even build a house for their puppet ruler.

If the Cylons have brought benefits, then they don't seem to have been particularly significant ones.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Millennium

If the Cylons have brought benefits, then they don't seem to have been particularly significant ones.

Well, they seem to have brought several good looking female models to the people of New Caprica.







P.S. Nobody on New Caprica seemed surprised Xena was a cylon.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

P.S. Nobody on New Caprica seemed surprised Xena was a cylon.

You're right but I guess they had a year and 4 months to deal with the shock and not still walking around pointing at her.

[xi_hyperon]

So is it safe to assume that we won't be seeing the new episodes of BSG on iTunes anytime soon?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by bstone

has anyone considered what BENEFITS the Cylons have brought the humans on New Caprica? Medicine? Food? Other supplies? It would be interested to figure out.

I was thinking the same thing. I mean look at the mean loft Starbuck is living in with designer furniture and whatnot that was made in no time. Not to mention all the cylons have fantastic hairdressers and stylists.

If it were me I would pretend to be down with whatever religion they are preaching if I got a set-up like that.

[xi_hyperon]

Yup, the cylons in general look pretty good and healthy. Perhaps Apollo should go down there and see about getting into their health club.

[bstone]

Cylonified™

[Dark Helmet]

I have to say I am sorta disappointed that they have a new resurrection ship as it defeats much of the purpose of season 2.5.

When they nuked the resurrection ship it was a major victory as the two battlestars worked together and delt a serious blow to the cylons. Because that ship was destroyed the cylons weren't as quick to attack knowing they couldn't be resurrected (both raiders and humanoids) and it added an interesting story element.

Now that the Cylons got a new one just 7 episodes later when you watch a re-run of season 2 the victory is less sweet.

Hope they don't have to nuke Resurrection ship 2.0 as it doesn't seem worth the trouble.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I have to say I am sorta disappointed that they have a new resurrection ship as it defeats much of the purpose of season 2.5.

Given that Leoben was back in less than a day, they probably built a resurrection facility on New Caprica. I got the impression that Resurrection Ships were very hard to build, but that a land-based facility is much easier to work with. This would also explain why there were no Resurrection Ships in orbit around New Caprica.

Now that the Cylons got a new one just 7 episodes later...

Seven episodes later, maybe, but keep the timeskip in mind: this means it took them over a year to build one and stock it with bodies.

Yes, nuking a resurrection ship is no longer the total victory it had seemed to be, but then again, it never really was one anyway. Given enough time, there was always the possibility for a new Resurrection Ship to be built. It does, however, remain a huge setback for the Cylons to lose one.

[Chuckit]

There's apparently more to Cylon immortality than they're letting on, since (spoiler text) supposedly one of the Cylon models is going to be permanently killed later this season.

Anyway, I'd always kind of assumed the Resurrection Ship wasn't the end-all, be-all of Cylon immortality, since apparently Six reincarnated on Caprica rather than the Resurrection Ship. I assume there are several places Cylons can reincarnate, and they have to stay near enough to be resurrected by one.

[Dale Sorel]

Originally Posted by scottiB

"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that."

No doubt, colonel Tigh is a bad-ass

[reader50]

Originally Posted by bstone

has anyone considered what BENEFITS the Cylons have brought the humans on New Caprica? Medicine? Food? Other supplies? It would be interested to figure out.

I'm thinking medical supplies, mainly because Andurs is all over his pneumonia. Either he got better on his own, or it worked like Tigh and Ellen. They grab Kara, and supply antibiotics as payback. Hopefully to the whole colony. We haven't seen the Doc yet, though a hospital is mentioned in passing.

They may be supplying some labor. There is mention of Cylons working with humans in the fields (supervision?). Maybe Centurions can pick potatoes. Their fingers aren't well adapted to fine work.

At least 23 Cylon humanoid models were in the power station when it blew. Not exactly a PR location, and the secret police-with-ski-masks were handling security. So there were either 23 supervisors, or they were doing some actual work.

[reader50]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

...



...

P.S. Nobody on New Caprica seemed surprised Xena was a cylon.

D'ana Biers was the newscaster. People have had four months to find out. I've long wondered if the newscaster knew, or if she was a deep cover agent like Boomer, with fake memories.

I remember her character name as Diana Beers, as in drinking.

[Sourbook]

So does anyone else think that when the colonists are rescued from New Caprica, Baltar will seek asylum with the Cylons? He's pretty much worn out his welcome with the colonists, and the Cylons could use his knowledge in the war against humanity.

There may also be many more Human/Cylon babies that have been kept secret. This would create new moral dilemmas if they are rescued with the colonists. Should humans care for the same children that the Cylons believe are the next step in their evolution? Are the children sleeper agents waiting to be awoken?

[paul w]

Well it's not like he's going to be able to bring Six with him is he?

As for those hybrid babies, I guess I was in the minority when I kept saying to Kara "kill it! Kill the girl! Don't let it live!" when she was alone with the girl. I'm frankly disappointed in her.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Sourbook

So does anyone else think that when the colonists are rescued from New Caprica, Baltar will seek asylum with the Cylons? He's pretty much worn out his welcome with the colonists, and the Cylons could use his knowledge in the war against humanity.

Ya I was thinking the same. I'm sure the rest of the season we won't see him on the battlestar again. In fact I have a feeling he might actually want to be on their side and help find the humans.

I hope it isn't forever as I love his interaction with the rest of the cast.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Ya I was thinking the same. I'm sure the rest of the season we won't see him on the battlestar again. In fact I have a feeling he might actually want to be on their side and help find the humans.

I hope it isn't forever as I love his interaction with the rest of the cast.

I think for a few episodes he may escape with Six and only Six. I don't see him allying with the Cylons. I think he's starting to turn against them.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by paul w

Well it's not like he's going to be able to bring Six with him is he?

As for those hybrid babies, I guess I was in the minority when I kept saying to Kara "kill it! Kill the girl! Don't let it live!" when she was alone with the girl. I'm frankly disappointed in her.

I wasn't rooting for her to, but I was wondering if she would, actually picturing her saying something like, "I guess we'll see if you can download too" but that would have taken Kara to a dark dark place of no return.

A whole lot of "killing the innocents to justify causes and sketchily define who the good guys are" in this ep.

[jokell82]

BSG *NOT* going to NBC:
Will Battlestar Galactica make a jump to NBC? - TV Squad

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by jokell82

BSG *NOT* going to NBC:
Will Battlestar Galactica make a jump to NBC? - TV Squad

That sound you just heard was the sigh of relief heard 'round the Colonies.

[xi_hyperon]

FINALLY, the episode is available via iTunes.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by xi_hyperon

FINALLY, the episode is available via iTunes.

At that rate it is just encouraging piracy.

[SirCastor]

I think Baltar will end up doing something to redeem himself among the humans. Just barely though. Something along the lines of "You did this, so we'll let you live... for now" and the truth about the action will be that it wasn't intentional, just a side effect of saving his own skin...

I do miss the days when it seemed like Baltar was really turning around. Those first episodes with Gina, you could really see the humanity in him. I wish he had just a little more integrity, so you didn't know how he was going to act (Although, I wasn't sure about signing that paper)

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by SirCastor

I think Baltar will end up doing something to redeem himself among the humans. Just barely though. Something along the lines of "You did this, so we'll let you live... for now" and the truth about the action will be that it wasn't intentional, just a side effect of saving his own skin...

If anything he might make them THINK that he did something to redeem himself by taking credit for something else.

[goMac]

I think he'll actually redeem himself, not enough to make up for past actions though.

Edit: Also, if Adama is found to actually be responsible for the attacks on the colonies, it will take pressure off Baltar.