[reader50]

Originally Posted by scottiB

...
Also, Moore said that the director's initial edit of the episode clocked-in at 90 minutes. That version will be on the the season 2 DVDs (whether in addition to or instead of this episode, he didn't say).
...

Was that 90 minutes before commercials were added in? If so, then it is double the length of a normal episode. Effectively, we will get a 21-episode season on DVD.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Hmmm, that wasn't so good. It didn't have the feel of any other of the episodes. The music seemed really out of place for the first 90%. No real surprises, rather predictable. To me is seemed like an episode of star trek cliffhanger, very self contained.

[OreoCookie]

I really liked the episode, although the conflict got heated far too quickly. It seemed too compressed, but nevertheless, I liked it. I would have preferred splitting it in two episodes, though.

Although Balthar's behavior was too predictable. I find it hard to believe he'll be left alone with the Pegasus Six. Also, I don't understand why Six reacted so emotionally when she saw her copy. She didn't seem to mind beating the crap out of the Kobol-version of Shannon. The Cylon interrogated by Thrace also didn't really seem to mind the pain, so I find it hard to believe Six was really as affected. Doesn't seem to fit.

Also, the death of the Pegasus' interrogator doesn't seem to be necessary. I don't see how it was necessary nor the most probable outcome. Seems like the writers forced an issue instead of taking more minutes to build suspense and tension.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Also, I don't understand why Six reacted so emotionally when she saw her copy. She didn't seem to mind beating the crap out of the Kobol-version of Shannon. The Cylon interrogated by Thrace also didn't really seem to mind the pain, so I find it hard to believe Six was really as affected. Doesn't seem to fit.

Well, never before had they seen that kind of total humiliation.

Also, the death of the Pegasus' interrogator doesn't seem to be necessary. I don't see how it was necessary nor the most probable outcome. Seems like the writers forced an issue instead of taking more minutes to build suspense and tension.

I thought it was very necessary, given the subsequent events in the episode. BTW, Moore says in the podcast that they shot much, much darker versions of the scene, but those eventually got scrapped.

I did feel the episode was too rushed though.

Originally Posted by reader50

Was that 90 minutes before commercials were added in? If so, then it is double the length of a normal episode. Effectively, we will get a 21-episode season on DVD.

No, they said it was too long for a 1 hour episode but too short for a 90 minute episode. So basically, it was a 75 minute episode, including commercials, or 53ish minutes without commercials. (22 minutes of commercials: Ouch!)

BTW, this episode was already overtime, at 44 minutes. I assume they didn't extend the time of the show on the air right? So they just cut out 1.5 minutes of commercials?

Interestingly, in a previous DVD commentary they said that there is no such thing as a "Director's Cut". All the previous episodes are considered the director's cuts because all subsequent episodes are based on those cuts. They don't have new cuts for the DVDs because it would screw up the storylines. I guess that's changed for Pegasus though.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Also, I don't understand why Six reacted so emotionally when she saw her copy.

Actually I was more surprised that she didn't know about it. Seems that Baltars six isn't in contact with the rest of the cylons in any way.

[OreoCookie]

I listened to the podcast now.

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Well, never before had they seen that kind of total humiliation.

True, but on the other hand, on quite a few occasions the Cylons didn't seem to care about their bodies (e. g. Leoben knew he was going to die on the munition depot on Ragnar, Six protected Balthar from an explosion on Caprica, Sharon didn't mind the pain of being beaten by Six, etc.).

But probably each Cylon model is a different `character experiment', you could see that on Caprica when the three Cylons, Sharon, Six and the Public Relations guy were talking. Six was on the verge of tears, because she was missing with Balthar what Sharon had.

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I thought it was very necessary, given the subsequent events in the episode. BTW, Moore says in the podcast that they shot much, much darker versions of the scene, but those eventually got scrapped.

Nah, I still don't think his death was a necessary consequence. I think they just put it in to escalate the situation really fast which was part of the time constraint. I would have preferred if the BSG team had built up the tension much slower, focussing on the psyche of both commanders. Especially considering the mistakes Cain has made (shooting her first officer in front of the whole crew in CIC), a sort of understanding could have been reached between the two of them.

I still feel it was an easy way to escalate the situation really fast. Also, there was no intervention by the civillian government, at least trying to resolved the situation acting as a mediator. Kind of leaves a bitter aftertaste. Also, it very much reminds of what led to the escalation between Adama and Roslin at the end of season 1/beginning of season 2.

I think `my' story would go more like this: more time for scenes which show the crews of both ships working together. More background info on what the Pegasus was doing and how and why they managed to stay one step ahead of the Cylons. I still would have liked to see the recon mission either way, either as a failure of the by-the-books tactics the Pegasus works with or as a success, because both crews worked successfully together.

The interrogator wouldn't have been seriously hurt/killed (according to the podcast, if I remember correctly, the discussion about the darkness of the scene was to decide when the two guys, Tyrell and Helo bust in, just before, during or after the rape), maybe a concussion, but nothing major, more along the lines of arguments Starbuck had with the XO when they hit each other after a cards game.

More interference from the government. After all, the military has to serve the government and not just go on on its own. After all, I think the problem should have been two-fold: the integration of the Pegasus into the new `government'. After all, Cain's reservations are the same Adama has had during season 1 (the President, a school teacher? taking civil matters into consideration, primary responsibility being the safety of the fleet). The second one being the scrambling of the crews.

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I did feel the episode was too rushed though.

Totally.

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

No, they said it was too long for a 1 hour episode but too short for a 90 minute episode. So basically, it was a 75 minute episode, including commercials, or 53ish minutes without commercials. (22 minutes of commercials: Ouch!)

Expand the plot, and I think 75 minutes would have been better.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Actually I was more surprised that she didn't know about it. Seems that Baltars six isn't in contact with the rest of the cylons in any way.

Good point. There doesn't seem to be a coherent logical way as to when they (are able to) communicate and when they aren't. She was even teasing Balthar: who is it gonna be, making it sound like if it were some other Cylon model, she'd even enjoy the encounter.

Also: why are Cylons suddenly capable of transmitting her whole consciousness (or at least a lot of it) very quickly somehow, but aren't even capable of sending a short message? Somebody mentioned earlier he thinks to make Cylons more stealthy, but who cares if you have already been captured?

Another thing is that the different Cylon models seem to individualize -- the pregnant Sharon acts differently than the Sharon who was killed by Kelly. The Six visiting Balthar doesn't seem to be affected by the hell her Pegasus counterpart has to go through. This leads to the interesting (and somehow contradictory) argument that there aren't many `copies', but different clones which learn according to their own experiences. Only when they die, the different personalities seem to merge again (e. g. the Caprica Boomer having the recollection of shooting Adama) …?

In other words, if the Pegasus Six dies, how will that affect Balthar's Six?

It seems to me there is a bit of confusion about the capabilities and goals of Cylons (i. e. the writers don't know yet) instead of following the Ghost In The Shell-like objectives of Project 2501 to be able to reproduce, individualize and die.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

I still not convinced that Baltars 6 is actually real. I mean if he has no chip in his brain what could she be? Also why would his 6 want him to become VP and build a Cylon detector? She is really trying to help him in most regards.

The other thing that bothers me is the 6 that showed up and accused Baltar of being a traitor. She never acknolaged that she knew him. Plus she just disappeared without a trace, yet she left her glasses.

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

I still not convinced that Baltars 6 is actually real. I mean if he has no chip in his brain what could she be? Also why would his 6 want him to become VP and build a Cylon detector? She is really trying to help him in most regards.

Well it stands to reason that if the Cylons can build a machine that looks just like a human and (with the exception of Baltar's detector) can't be detected, then they can make something to put in Baltar's brain that also can't be detected.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

No, they said it was too long for a 1 hour episode but too short for a 90 minute episode. So basically, it was a 75 minute episode, including commercials, or 53ish minutes without commercials. (22 minutes of commercials: Ouch!)

BTW, this episode was already overtime, at 44 minutes. I assume they didn't extend the time of the show on the air right? So they just cut out 1.5 minutes of commercials?

You're right, I misinterpreted what I heard. It'll be the 75 minute (of 53 minutes w/o commercials).

The episode did run a little long, and I believe the show ran right to 11:00 pm, with the extra 2 minutes that SCI-FI mentioned in its announcement being commercials and a brief promo for January comprised of all three Friday shows--which showed nothing in particular.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Interestingly, in a previous DVD commentary they said that there is no such thing as a "Director's Cut". All the previous episodes are considered the director's cuts because all subsequent episodes are based on those cuts. They don't have new cuts for the DVDs because it would screw up the storylines. I guess that's changed for Pegasus though.

My guess is that the cut footage is more Pegasus back story and/or character development--not any plot points that need to be addressed in future episodes.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

I still not convinced that Baltars 6 is actually real. I mean if he has no chip in his brain what could she be? Also why would his 6 want him to become VP and build a Cylon detector? She is really trying to help him in most regards.

The other thing that bothers me is the 6 that showed up and accused Baltar of being a traitor. She never acknolaged that she knew him. Plus she just disappeared without a trace, yet she left her glasses.

I'm pretty sure Six is real. As mentioned before, I don't think it's really a problem that they implant something that's not easily detectable. Basically the same sort of transmitter they use.

The physical Six which accused Baltar of being a traitor seems to make this very clear: why would the Cylons bring her in if it didn't help keeping Baltar in line to do their bidding? The timing was simply too perfect.

I won't totally exclude that `it's all in his head', but certainly I wouldn't think it's the most plausible explanation.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

So none of the graininess is in the HD version? I note that some of the shots in the hangar bay in "33" for instance are VERY grainy, but "33" was shot in HD, not film, and it doesn't look like DVD MPEG2 artifacting. The graininess is similar to the miniseries DVD, and that was shot on film.

Could they have been intentionally adding grain to some of the shots?

Hmmmm... In the commentary for 105 they don't mention anything about grain specifically, but they say that the contrast in the hanger deck is maxed out on purpose for effect, even though the level of contrast is really considered too high for comfort for most TV shows.

Originally Posted by scottiB

My guess is that the cut footage is more Pegasus back story and/or character development--not any plot points that need to be addressed in future episodes.

Yeah, that sounds about right. The episode was very short on development of the existing plot points and characters. Something/someone was introduced, and then BAM! it happens. They really crammed things in there.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I'm pretty sure Six is real.

Not even the writers know if she's real or not. We can't assume anything at this point.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Have any of you gone back to watch the pilot? there are some really strange things that happen with Baltar and 6. I'm starting to think the whole story in centred around him somehow.

[Eug Wanker]

Interesting...

My non-religious sis saw parts of some of the later episodes of season 1 (without seeing anything before that) and immediately felt the whole thing was too religious, almost as if the writers had a Christian agenda to push to the viewing public. That doesn't quite make sense as the humans are polytheists in the show, and the only monotheists are "evil" cylons, but nonetheless I can understand that viewpoint upon reflection. Now that I think about it, if one watches only snippets of some of those episodes they can seem that way, especially if you watch them out of context. Certainly the cylons' drive to push a monotheistic religion, with Baltar moving in that direction, and that whole glowing superkid thing in the season 1 finale really pushes this idea.

I don't want to make this into a religious thread, but just want to comment as to how difficult it is to explore such topics without alienating some viewers. I will say though that while I thought the glowing superkid scenes in the season 1 finale were an interesting concept, I also thought they were overdone.

Too much cylon messiah, and not enough people being blown up.

Anyways I told her to watch from the beginning and then comment.

P.S. Isn't Eick often a Jewish name?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Interesting...

My non-religious sis saw parts of some of the later episodes of season 1 (without seeing anything before that) and immediately felt the whole thing was too religious, almost as if the writers had a Christian agenda to push to the viewing public. That doesn't quite make sense as the humans are polytheists in the show, and the only monotheists are "evil" cylons, but nonetheless I can understand that viewpoint upon reflection. Now that I think about it, if one watches only snippets of some of those episodes they can seem that way, especially if you watch them out of context. Certainly the cylons' drive to push a monotheistic religion, with Baltar moving in that direction, and that whole glowing superkid thing in the season 1 finale really pushes this idea.

Oh, it is. It's one of the two thing which disturb me: the abundance of praying as well as the importance attached to it. It doesn't really matter if the Colonists believe in many gods (Lords of Kobol) or one god (Cylons). So yes, what your sister says makes perfect sense to me. Roslin thinks she's a prophet herself, I mean, you don't really need to interpret a lot here.

The other thing is the excessive consumption of alcohol and tabacco. I'm not a anti-smoking/anti-alcohol activist, far from it. I enjoy a glass of wine/beer here and there, but Adama meets Roslin and Cain: you see a big bottle of Whiskey (or whatever it's supposed to be) on the table. Tigh goes to an interview and nips on a big drink. The pilots play cards and drink/smoke a lot while they're at it. Or when Thrace brings back the Cylon raider, she gets on of Adama's last cigarellos.

I really wonder what the symbolism behind these two topics is.

[Eug Wanker]

Oh, it is. It's one of the two thing which disturb me: the abundance of praying as well as the importance attached to it. It doesn't really matter if the Colonists believe in many gods (Lords of Kobol) or one god (Cylons). So yes, what your sister says makes perfect sense to me. Roslin thinks she's a prophet herself, I mean, you don't really need to interpret a lot here.

Yeah, but I felt it was more an exploration of religious themes (and yes perhaps too much) in the interest of intelligent fiction, rather than pushing any specific agenda.

The other thing is the excessive consumption of alcohol and tabacco. I'm not a anti-smoking/anti-alcohol activist, far from it. I enjoy a glass of wine/beer here and there, but Adama meets Roslin and Cain: you see a big bottle of Whiskey (or whatever it's supposed to be) on the table. Tigh goes to an interview and nips on a big drink. The pilots play cards and drink/smoke a lot while they're at it. Or when Thrace brings back the Cylon raider, she gets on of Adama's last cigarellos.

Well, Tigh is scripted as a drunk, and Starback is... well... Starbuck. Starbuck from the original series smoked (cigars) like a chimney, drank like a fish, got into trouble several times gambling, and was quite promiscuous (at least for a 1970s show). As for the other pilots' drinking and smoking, well that's what they do. I just watched an old BSG original series episode which had some of the men stealing booze from Battlestar's stores. There was another entire episode devoted to an Ambrosia-producing planet.

OTOH, while they're not the clean cut Star Trek types, they are a heluvalot more straight-laced on BSG than real military people are IMO, but I feel that BSG strikes a good balance. They're "good" enough to be likeable, but they still have their deep character flaws, which makes them interesting.

And of course, we should also remember that two of the main leaders (the two Adamas) don't really smoke much or drink much, so there is some balance.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yeah, but I felt it was more an exploration of religious themes (and yes perhaps too much) in the interest of intelligent fiction, rather than pushing any specific agenda.

I'm not saying that. But I'm more the science guy … 

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Well, Tigh is scripted as a drunk, and Starback is... well... Starbuck. Starbuck from the original series smoked (cigars) like a chimney, drank like a fish, got into trouble several times gambling, and was quite promiscuous (at least for a 1970s show). As for the other pilots' drinking and smoking, well that's what they do. I just watched an old BSG original series episode which had some of the men stealing booze from Battlestar's stores. There was another entire episode devoted to an Ambrosia-producing planet.

Virtually everybody drinks and smokes. Even clean-cut Gaeta It seems to be blown out of proportions a bit. How can you work like this? How can the pilots perform?

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

OTOH, while they're not the clean cut Star Trek types, they are a heluvalot more straight-laced on BSG than real military people are IMO, but I feel that BSG strikes a good balance. They're "good" enough to be likeable, but they still have their deep character flaws, which makes them interesting.

And of course, we should also remember that two of the main leaders (the two Adamas) don't really smoke much or drink much, so there is some balance.

Yes, and that's what people (ok, correction, at least I) enjoy: you don't have these `I can do turn rocks into replicators, but not get together with a Vulcan woman I love'-type of people. People have flaws. They are more real. And I think that's why Enterprise failed (though that's another topic).

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Oh, it is. It's one of the two thing which disturb me: the abundance of praying as well as the importance attached to it. It doesn't really matter if the Colonists believe in many gods (Lords of Kobol) or one god (Cylons). So yes, what your sister says makes perfect sense to me. Roslin thinks she's a prophet herself, I mean, you don't really need to interpret a lot here.

The other thing is the excessive consumption of alcohol and tabacco. I'm not a anti-smoking/anti-alcohol activist, far from it. I enjoy a glass of wine/beer here and there, but Adama meets Roslin and Cain: you see a big bottle of Whiskey (or whatever it's supposed to be) on the table. Tigh goes to an interview and nips on a big drink. The pilots play cards and drink/smoke a lot while they're at it. Or when Thrace brings back the Cylon raider, she gets on of Adama's last cigarellos.

I really wonder what the symbolism behind these two topics is.

I don't think it's so much symbolism as realism. Ever been around combat soldiers? Lots of drinking and smoking are a pretty common sight.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Virtually everybody drinks and smokes. Even clean-cut Gaeta It seems to be blown out of proportions a bit. How can you work like this? How can the pilots perform?

You don't know any military people, do you? Actually I don't know many military people either these days either, but I can assure you that many get drunk rather regularly, and yes that applies to officers too.

It's also of note that Galactica was also "looser" than Pegasus. Pegasus is a hardcore military ship which is much more strictly run, whereas Galactica was as an old relic about to be decommissioned, so people got away with more. OTOH, Pegasus is a lot more harsh and people on the ship get away with stuff that wouldn't be allowed on Galactica, as long as those actions help their military causes.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Here are some things that trouble me about the premiere with Baltar and 6.

- Before the attack Baltar is a smooth, articulate man. After he is a totally different person, nervous, stutters etc. Sure the nervious can hit you but to act the same 1 year later seems like some major mental damage.

- Why is 6 carrying a transponder around with her in her purse all the time?

- When Baltar is being interview on TV the first thing he does is look at his watch. What is he waiting for?

- When 6 walks with Baltar to his meeting he says he is meeting someone later for business reasons. He leaves her and 6 walks away and runs into someone she was expecting (which they don't show who), she says "there you are, what took you so long?". Who could she have been meeting and why? Why is it urgent? I don't think it was another boomer as there seems to be no point. Was it a replacement Cylon Baltar?

- The next time they show Baltar he is in bed with another woman. Somehow 6 got into his room and sat down at the end of the bed without bothering them. She says "I have something to tell you". It then cuts. Much later they show Baltar totally dressed and well put together. She said "We've been over this 3 times now", I am a cylon etc.

- Six always says that he is the chosen one. If so why was Baltar on the planet during a full nuclear attack with no way off? When one bomb falls close to Baltar she says duck and his house blows up around him. It then cuts. Later Baltar seems to be running through a field no worse off.

- The crowd is standing around the raptor wanting to get one when Helo says "hey aren't you gius baltar?". Balter responds "NO, I haven't done anything". Sure was damn nice of Helo to give his life up for someone he doesn't know. Perhaps the crash and the exchange were all part of a plan?

- The first time Baltar sees the "imaginary 6" is when he is about to get on the raptor. She is standing in the exact same place he was standing a second ago in the crowd. Next he sees her in the raptor.

- When Baltar first figures out that Cylons can look human he says to six "Cylons can look like US now." US, not human. He knows 6 is a cylon. Strange.

- Baltar is way way way to quick to find and conclude that the PR guy is a cylon. He concludes this just by looking guessing. He then makes up a story saying he made a cylon test and it narrowed him out. They leave him behind on baltars word. Did baltar do this just hoping it was true or did he really test him? If so why didn't they use that test later on.

- The transponder on the CIC was there for more than a week. That means the PR cylon didn't plant it. Perhaps it was boomer but that might look a bit obvious when she is climbing on the CIC table.

- Turns out not only is Baltar responsible for giving away the defence plans but the cylons also used his auto nav program to disable the ships.

- Baltar acts really strange, pale and odd when they are at ragnar, the nebula that makes Cylons sick.

- At the end Six says to Baltar: "You haven't addressed the real problem" Baltar says "If there are cylons on board we will find them". Six says "WE? YOU ARE NOT ON THEIR SIDE GIUS". He says "I am not on anybody's side". That's saying a lot.


On a side note Cylons don't seem to value their own lives much, perhaps because they are just reborn. Six in the begining is blow up on the space station with two metal heads. Later she is shot on purpose by boomer in a fake rescue attempt. Maybe the cylons want to be mortal? We are also getting the impression that Cylons want to reporduce with humans even though they don't like them. Perhaps they are more interested in love as they can't program it. What if they are just putting Cylon humans that know they are cylon with other ones that think they are human to see if love can develop?

[OreoCookie]

You bring up some good points. I think Cylons have to become mortal if they want to give birth (again, just watch Ghost In The Shell, great movie ).

I find Baltar's development (which you so neatly outlined above) very strange to say the least. He goes from an arrogant narcissistic egomaniac to a paranoid egomaniac. Very little is left from his strong and manipulative former self, always following his own agenda. Instead, he became a tool. In the beginning he mocks regular people as they are controlled by fear and other pity emotions, but crumbles down himself. After he started praying to God (singular), he is merely an instrument, he looses his neutrality. Before that, Adama/other humans and Six were his `two voices' standing on opposite sides and he never really chose sides.

That's also why his character got a lot weaker in the second season (at least in my opinion).

Also Six' manipulative personality seems to be unable to really feel the kind of love Sharon does for Helo and Galen. This facet also got lost

I was hoping Baltar was the `beacon of choice', until he is forced to finally take sides, one way or the other. In his current state of mind, he can't even make a choice, he's a robot, controlled by Six. It doesn't really matter at this point if she's real or not, if he doesn't get back to his former `virtues,' he's gone.

[Eug Wanker]

I'm watching the original Pegasus right now. OMG it's a hoot!



Commander Cain is the same guy that was in Airplane, and I keep expecting him to blurt out those stupid jokes.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Universal has announced the DVD release of SciFi's Battlestar Galactica: Season 2.0 on 12/20. The 3-disc set (SRP $49.98) will include the just aired first half of the show's second season - 10 episodes in all, plus extras. As with the first season, the episodes will be presented in anamorphic widescreen with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. We expect the bonus material to include all of Ron Moore's podcast commentaries, deleted scenes, behind-the-scenes featurettes and an extended version of the mid-season finale, Pegasus (that according to Ron himself). FYI, the latter half of the second season debuts on SciFi in January.

[Ozmodiar]

Re: widescreen

The Sci-Fi shows are actually shot in widescreen, right? I remember a few shows that used to film in full screen, and then chop off the top and bottom to make it look widescreen (I think the cartoon Justice League did this).

And who's going to buy half a season on DVD?

[cpt kangarooski]

Commander Cain is the same guy that was in Airplane, and I keep expecting him to blurt out those stupid jokes.

It is very sad that you identify Lloyd Bridges as 'that guy from Airplane.' Especially since the Battlestar episode he was in was filmed before Airplane was.

Man, kids today never heard of Sea Hunt?

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

And who's going to buy half a season on DVD?

Esp for $50!

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

And who's going to buy half a season on DVD?

I probably will if the price is right, considering it has the extended version of the (half-)season finale on it. I'd pay CAD$35 (US$30), or maybe even a little bit more. I won't pay US$50 though.

Note though the MSRP isn't what it will cost. I think the MSRP for Season 1 is CAD$70, but all the big stores sell it for CAD$50 (US$43).

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

It is very sad that you identify Lloyd Bridges as 'that guy from Airplane.' Especially since the Battlestar episode he was in was filmed before Airplane was.

Man, kids today never heard of Sea Hunt?

Well, I actually saw Battlestar Galactica when it first came out. I just don't remember much of it.

And I will also note that his acting in BSG was almost exactly the same as it was in Airplane, which in itself says something.

[Ganesha]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

- Before the attack Baltar is a smooth, articulate man. After he is a totally different person, nervous, stutters etc. Sure the nervious can hit you but to act the same 1 year later seems like some major mental damage.

Post traumatic stress disorder perhaps. Also keep in mind Baltar is probably afraid of making a slip and being discovered as the man who doomed the colonies. Seeing someone who isn't there can't help much either.

When Baltar is being interview on TV the first thing he does is look at his watch. What is he waiting for?

Waiting for the interview to be over?

When 6 walks with Baltar to his meeting he says he is meeting someone later for business reasons. He leaves her and 6 walks away and runs into someone she was expecting (which they don't show who), she says "there you are, what took you so long?". Who could she have been meeting and why?

Another cylon perhaps. Since there seems to be plenty of cylons running around before the attack, since they end up in the fleet later. We know both Galactica and Pegasus had a cylon agents onboard. And we've seen three more in the fleet. And presumably other Battlestar's also had cylons on board and those died in the attack.

The crowd is standing around the raptor wanting to get one when Helo says "hey aren't you gius baltar?". Balter responds "NO, I haven't done anything". Sure was damn nice of Helo to give his life up for someone he doesn't know.

Helo gave his reasons later for why he was giving up his seat.

When Baltar first figures out that Cylons can look human he says to six "Cylons can look like US now." US, not human. He knows 6 is a cylon. Strange.

Watch it again. One of them isn't 'there'.

Baltar is way way way to quick to find and conclude that the PR guy is a cylon. He concludes this just by looking guessing. He then makes up a story saying he made a cylon test and it narrowed him out. They leave him behind on baltars word. Did baltar do this just hoping it was true or did he really test him? If so why didn't they use that test later on.

Baltar faked the test, and since they found the transponder in CIC they couldn't take the risk of leaving him on board.

The transponder on the CIC was there for more than a week. That means the PR cylon didn't plant it. Perhaps it was boomer but that might look a bit obvious when she is climbing on the CIC table.

It's not clear when the he first comes onto the ship. He is there from the first scene onboard, so he may have planted it. Of course it would look even more obvious if he was climbing on the CIC table... which means... There is another cylon agent onboard!

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Ganesha you only gave the obvious reasons behind my notes and not WHY or who.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by Ganesha

Baltar faked the test, and since they found the transponder in CIC they couldn't take the risk of leaving him on board.

No kidding. That doesn't answer how he knew instantly that the PR guy was a cylon.

[selowitch]

I loved the Season 2 finale in part because the original-series episodes with the Pegasus, IIRC, guest-starred Lloyd Bridges as the Pegasus' captain and straddled the end of one season and the beginning of the next, and was one of the best of the original series. This new episode was very well-done, although the idea that a female Admiral would be so obtuse on the subject of rape is difficult to imagine.

[cpt kangarooski]

That doesn't answer how he knew instantly that the PR guy was a cylon.

He didn't. It was a guess.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

He didn't. It was a guess.

A guess that kills a man? It wasn't even an educated guess.

[Ganesha]

Balter needed to get the crew to know about the transponder, without implicating himself in the destruction of the colonies. It would of gone something like this if he just told them about the trasnponder.

Ty: Just how do you know what these are Mr. Baltar?
Balter: Um, ah... you see I was... um...

So he needed to 'blame' someone else. Someone who had access to the bridge, but wasn't part of the crew. So he blamed the PR man. Who turns out later to be a cylon, but Baltar had no idea at the time since he was just trying to save his own skin.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

And who's going to buy half a season on DVD?

I'll sure buy it!!!! The best show on TV! Truer words were never spoke!

[reader50]

Further thoughts, since getting the Season 1 DVDs.

Originally Posted by Ganesha

Extra Mark 7's is not an error.

In the final battle sequence (of the miniseries) you can clearly see a mix of Mark 7's and 2's during the viper launch sequence.

Early Gaeta makes a comment about purging the command and control program from the remaining Mark 7. Of course where these Mark 7's come from, is anyone's guess. They clearly were not available when Starbuck got out of the brig, because they would of used them if they were (Galactica's fighters hadn't been wiped out yet). My guess? They are random surviving fighters each of them having a 'hardware' program them rendered them immune and saved them long enough to find the fleet.

It turns out Galactica has a mix of Mark 2s and Mark 7s since Ragnar. A closer look at the miniseries revealed that the President's searches for surviving ships collected up a number of Viper Mark 7s. This is visible in the civilian fleet at 01:55:53 on the DVD, where Boomer has just returned with the fuel ship. Three Mark 7s are visible cruising by in formation.

The dialog never explicitly mentions this, though Baltar has a conversation with Gaeta later (02:13:28) in Galactica's CIC about purging all copies of the Cylon's trojan CNP program. At one point, Gaeta says "I should probably retrofit the newer vipers as well".

Side note, Tigh is a serious ingrate to the President when she asks for help at Ragnar. She's just delivered enough salvaged Vipers to nearly double those on Galactica, and Tigh doesn't want to volunteer anything to help the civilians in distress.

• Concerning the famous note, that there are only 12 Cylon models. Baltar is repeating what Number Six told him back on Caprica just before her body died of the nearby nuke strike. I assume this refers to 12 humanoid Cylon models, rather than Cylon models in general. Go back to the miniseries, at the beginning, on Armistice Station. The diplomatic officer is looking at 40-year-old intel data to pass the time. At 00:01:50, he looks over a schematic drawing of an old Cylon Centurion. Look at the top of the sheet, this is "Cylon Centurian Model 0005". Add 6 humanoid models identified so far, plus the current Centurion, plus the Raider, and you are already at 13. It is reasonable to assume the Colonials knew a lot more about the Cylons during the last war, including their internal model designations. Also, I kind of doubt the Cylons jumped directly from Model #5 to Model #6.

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

- Baltar is way way way to quick to find and conclude that the PR guy is a cylon. He concludes this just by looking guessing. He then makes up a story saying he made a cylon test and it narrowed him out. They leave him behind on Baltars word. Did Baltar do this just hoping it was true or did he really test him? If so why didn't they use that test later on.

I agree with Ganesha on this, Baltar framed Doral. Remember, Baltar is very self-centered. The unknown device has to be pointed out to the crew, otherwise it presents a clear threat to Baltar. Any Cylon device operating in CIC endangers the ship, and therefore Baltar. However, it is imperative that Baltar not point it out and be identified himself as a likely traitor, since that gets him killed too.

Doral was an outsider who had had virtually unlimited access to CIC for several weeks (dialog between Baltar and Six). This gave him opportunity, and as an outsider, he was less likely to be defended. In the end, it was more important to frame someone up (anyone who could be fixed up with opportunity to plant it) than to let the device go undetected. This is all from Baltar's perspective of course. So yes, it was a guess - but Baltar's analysis of opportunity turned out to be on the mark. We don't know for sure that Doral planted the device (kind of a stupid out-in-the-open location), but he really did have the opportunity.

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

- When Baltar is being interview on TV the first thing he does is look at his watch. What is he waiting for?

Baltar is pretending to be busier and more important than he is. He did much the same thing to D'ana Biers in Final Cut. He wanted the interview, but made out like his schedule was very tight and he'd have to fit her in.

• While we are on the miniseries, take another look at the Galactica's jump to Ragnar at 01:37:57. The pods were pulled in just before, in preparation for jump. However, Galactica jumps with the flight pods fully extended.

• I took a closer look at #112 (Kobol part 1) to see if the Cylons pointed Boomer to Kobol or not. ie - if they had found Kobol first and sent the humans there. Boomer is jumping to a nearby sector to survey. After righting her Raptor in orbit, she curses Gaeta for setting the coordinates too close to a planet. This might put suspicion on Gaeta, except that Galactica does not have computer networks operating on board, per the Commander's orders. Boomer had to punch the coordinates in. Further, Boomer knows it is not Earth just by looking at it, that it is someplace more important. Crash (her wingmate) is looking over the scan output, Boomer is just looking out the visor in order to determine this. So I figure Boomer was pointed to Kobol.

In #208 (Final Cut), we learn in the final dialog between the clones back on Caprica, that the two raiders were sent into the fleet as a sacrifice to relay data out. One assumes there is a 3rd Cylon ship beyond scan range that picks up the messages. So that is how the Cylons get intel info in and out of the fleet: during raider attacks. There were no raider attacks between when Boomer returned with Kobol's coordinates, and when the survey team returned to Kobol and ran into the base ship.

• Concerning the imaginary Number Six, and what she is. I haven't figured this one out myself, and had been accepting the theory originally offered of a chip implanted in Baltar's brain. Here are some things I've considered since.

1. The humanoid Cylons use organic computers that pass basic medical scans as human brains. deej5871 could be right that a chip is used that can't be easily detected - like an organic chip. Something like a silica based neural net, that otherwise looks like normal brain tissue. This idea makes Number Six real (independent of Baltar's imagination), but it has problems. Mainly that she doesn't seem to have much (any?) communication with other Cylon agents. See possible answer #3.
2. Baltar is a Cylon himself, a special sleeper agent. The imaginary Six first appeared after her body was destroyed. She was uploaded to Baltar instead of elsewhere on the network. She's real, but only running in his head. This theory has problems, mainly that she doesn't seem to have much (any?) communication with other Cylon agents. See possible answer #3.
3. Baltar is actually imagining her, as a reaction to finding out he caused the end of the 12 Colonies. This is supported in several ways, most notably in that Number Six doesn't usually seem to know anything independently of Baltar. In the miniseries in CIC, she knows she was carrying a transponder in her purse (Baltar had seen it there) but doesn't know what it is. She doesn't know Doral is a Cylon model either, nor apparently Boomer (in #108) when Boomer comes by to bully Baltar into an early Cylon blood test, until after Boomer presses for her test. Number Six doesn't know anything about the Cylon's Tylium refinery in #110 either, nor if Ellen is a Cylon in #109. And as was pointed out, Six didn't know what model of Cylon the Pegasus had captured before Baltar could see the captive. She does say in #112 (Kobol part 1) after shoving Baltar's head into the mirror on Colonial One: "You can't lie to me, I know everything you know". The flip side of that statement may be that she doesn't know anything Baltar doesn't know or observe. However, if she knows everything Baltar knows, why did she have to ask about Ellen's test results? Also, how did Number Six know that Baltar should not stay on Galactica during the coup? To know that, one would have to know what the President was planning as an alternative if Adama turned down her request for the arrow mission.
4. The original theory of a chip is correct, but the Doc or his scan machine is covering up. He wouldn't be the only Dr. who gave someone a false negative test result on Galactica.

The physical Number Six that showed up to accuse Baltar confuses things quite a bit. A connection to the imaginary Six is implied because she vanished the whole time physical Six was around. Further, the physical Six's accusations seemed aimed solely at getting Baltar out of suspicion for possible Cylon collaboration. This suggests imaginary Six also, since she's the only one who has had an obvious use for Balter since the Colonies fell.

The Cylons exposed a previously-unidentified model, by supplying flawed data to accuse Baltar. They didn't need flawed data, because they could implicate him with the real data, by having the Six prove herself to be a Cylon and tell the story. So the Cylons exposed a secret model in order to frame Baltar with evidence that would fall apart. This looks odd unless Number Six is indeed coordinating with other Cylons, except that she has little or no communication with the other Cylons.

If theory #2 is correct, perhaps invisible Six transferred herself out of Baltar's head into another Six in the fleet, and did the clumsy frame job in order to give Baltar a cleaner slate. The trouble with this is that I don't think Baltar was under any suspicion beforehand, so the only motive would be to ... er, put the fear of God into Baltar. Motives don't quite seem to work right for anything I've thought of to explain the physical Six's appearance.

I'd really like to see what went on when the original Six met with another Cylon on Caprica. That does look like the key.

• I've been running with the general assumption that the Cylons are attempting to make the Pythia prophecy come true, and that the Cylons have been setting up details in support of this. The idea runs something like this:

1. The Cylons decide they want souls. They apparently need something that is missing in order to procreate. Simple testing reveals they don't currently have souls. ie - their prayers do not produce any apparent results. Also, no little Cylons.
2. They try to trace their line back to the Gods. This leads them to humanity first, but the Gods are not hanging around the Colonies. The Cylons spend a few years infiltrating, and only find mortals. The Cylons consider alternative reasons why they can't procreate, and make some plans regarding human assistance on that front. No need to solve only one problem at a time.
3. The Cylons search for and find Kobol. Extended searches for Kobol would explain why they had that Tyllium refinery set up so far out, a truly wide search would stress their resources.
4. But, they don't find any gods at Kobol either. Humanity left Kobol a couple thousand years ago, settling on 13 colonies. If the gods aren't at Kobol now, they must have left too. Since the gods don't seem to be hanging around the 12 Colonies, they must have gone with the 13th tribe to Earth.
5. The Cylons track down Athena's tomb, but can't figure anything out. If there is a map to Earth, it's obscured in some fashion. At least for machine-logical Cylons.
6. The Pythia prophecies claim humans can find the map to Earth under certain circumstances. Suddenly, the Cylons need to set those circumstances up. Oops, time just ran out for the 12 Colonies. Let's plan to finish the job we started last time. But there will need to be survivors. We'll need to pick a dying leader for example, one intended to fit the desired profile. So check the human leaders' medical profiles on the Colonies.
7. Although most cities are scheduled to be bombed during the attacks, Delphi will need to survive so the museum and arrow will be there later on. Whoever the humans eventually send to get the arrow won't find it if Delphi is a large crater.
8. Provide doped pills to Roslin to help with the visions, since the prophecy requires that too.
9. When the humans finally get herded within range of Kobol, make things difficult. The prophecy says a return to Kobol will be paid for in blood. All the humans who died on/near Kobol did so at the hands of the Cylons - except LT, who was shot by Baltar. Oh yeah, there was that guy shot by Apollo outside the tomb too.

This logic path is why I asked if Roslin actually had cancer, or if the Cylons had messed with the Doc or his scanner. If she actually has cancer, the Cylons risk her dying before all the pieces come together. Cancer progression can be very unpredictable. If you assume they supplied her pills, they are in a position to supply more pills as needed and make sure the cancer symptoms proceed only when convenient. No glitches in the prophecy timeline, please.

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by reader50

Baltar is actually imagining her, as a reaction to finding out he caused the end of the 12 Colonies. This is supported in several ways, most notably in that Number Six doesn't usually seem to know anything independently of Baltar. In the miniseries in CIC, she knows she was carrying a transponder in her purse (Baltar had seen it there) but doesn't know what it is. She doesn't know Doral is a Cylon model either, nor apparently Boomer (in #108) when Boomer comes by to bully Baltar into an early Cylon blood test, until after Boomer presses for her test. Number Six doesn't know anything about the Cylon's Tylium refinery in #110 either, nor if Ellen is a Cylon in #109. And as was pointed out, Six didn't know what model of Cylon the Pegasus had captured before Baltar could see the captive. She does say in #112 (Kobol part 1) after shoving Baltar's head into the mirror on Colonial One: "You can't lie to me, I know everything you know". The flip side of that statement may be that she doesn't know anything Baltar doesn't know or observe. However, if she knows everything Baltar knows, why did she have to ask about Ellen's test results? Also, how did Number Six know that Baltar should not stay on Galactica during the coup? To know that, one would have to know what the President was planning as an alternative if Adama turned down her request for the arrow mission.

You are forgetting the conversation when Baltar was telling Adama that he didn't really have a Cylon detector. Here Six makes Baltar tell Adama that he needed a nuke for the plutonium to make a detector, and then let him figure out the rest. I suppose she could have just gathered this because Baltar knew it subconsciously since he's a supposed genius, but I don't think that's likely. I do think it's possible (maybe even likely) that Baltar's Six can either only contact the Cylons in certain situations (maybe Baltar needs to be near one of the transmitters like the one that was in CIC) or maybe she doesn't contact them at all. Her program is only running on a small chip in Baltar's brain (assuming that's what she is), so it would be very hard to transmit with something like that.

It's a mystery.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by reader50

[*]Baltar is a Cylon himself, a special sleeper agent. The imaginary Six first appeared after her body was destroyed. She was uploaded to Baltar instead of elsewhere on the network. She's real, but only running in his head. This theory has problems, mainly that she doesn't seem to have much (any?) communication with other Cylon agents.

This is what I am thinking right now. He might have been real and was replaced after the nuclear attack. Or perhaps that is who 6 was meeting in the pilot after Baltar and her departed and he went to the meeting.

Six DOES know some inside information which makes me think she isn't just an imagination.
She knows that Sols wife is suspicious from the beginning. She knew Lucy Lawless "could Help them" right off the bat, she has also helped baltar become VP.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by deej5871

You are forgetting the conversation when Baltar was telling Adama that he didn't really have a Cylon detector. Here Six makes Baltar tell Adama that he needed a nuke for the plutonium to make a detector, and then let him figure out the rest. I suppose she could have just gathered this because Baltar knew it subconsciously since he's a supposed genius, but I don't think that's likely. I do think it's possible (maybe even likely) that Baltar's Six can either only contact the Cylons in certain situations (maybe Baltar needs to be near one of the transmitters like the one that was in CIC) or maybe she doesn't contact them at all. Her program is only running on a small chip in Baltar's brain (assuming that's what she is), so it would be very hard to transmit with something like that.

It's a mystery.

I've just had a new idea. How about this scenario: Baltar is real and human. However, the Cylons have implanted a chip in his brain and a copy of Six is running completely from `within' Baltar. This would explain how he is able to `see' her, but she doesn't have some crucial pieces of information (e. g. that a copy of herself is being tortured on the Pegasus).

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I've just had a new idea. How about this scenario: Baltar is real and human. However, the Cylons have implanted a chip in his brain and a copy of Six is running completely from `within' Baltar. This would explain how he is able to `see' her, but she doesn't have some crucial pieces of information (e. g. that a copy of herself is being tortured on the Pegasus).

I dunno, it seems the writers have tried to prove to us that he doesn't have a chip in his head. To say later the scans didn't pick it up is a pit of a cheat.

IF Baltar is a cylon it is more then possible that they have some sort of communications between each other. Boomer hooked up a friggin' fiber-optic cable to her arm for christs sake.

Also, the sleeper agent of Boomer might have also been seeing someone in her head, telling her to plant the bombs etc.

One thing I am not following at all. In the reporter episode with Lucy Lawless.. at the end when she is sitting in a movie theatre with the other Cylons. where and how in the world is this possibly taking place?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

One thing I am not following at all. In the reporter episode with Lucy Lawless.. at the end when she is sitting in a movie theatre with the other Cylons. where and how in the world is this possibly taking place?

It was happening back on Caprica. That Lucy Lawless was another copy.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Although Battlestar Galactica has not officially been picked up for another season yet by Sci-Fi and Moore will only say he "hopes" that it will, he told Now Playing Magazine that he and his staff have discussed what they plan to do in the series' upcoming third year. "We’re sort of looking into larger story arcs as to where the series is ultimately going," he said. "We've had preliminary discussions about conceptually what we want the third season to reflect and how we would approach it."

Season two, he added, was originally planned to start with a "big flashback episode" ending in a cliffhanger, but "we kind of abandoned that" even though flashbacks of Tigh and Adama's first meeting remain in the aired version. "It was just one of those ideas that we didn’t like as much as we thought we would...it turns out we picked up exactly where we left off!"

Because more footage was shot for the flashbacks, Moore said that the earlier years of Tigh and Adama may make appearances later this season or next season. "We’ve got them in the can. We’ve talked about maybe sprinkling them in some other episodes or in some other context," he said.

http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/2150/2/

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

I dunno, it seems the writers have tried to prove to us that he doesn't have a chip in his head. To say later the scans didn't pick it up is a pit of a cheat.

IF Baltar is a cylon it is more then possible that they have some sort of communications between each other. Boomer hooked up a friggin' fiber-optic cable to her arm for christs sake.

Yes, it's hard to believe that you cannot detect a fiber-optical interconnect in an arm If all humanoid cylons were equipped with one, they'd be pretty easy to detect, I guess.

So I guess `movie logic' also allows that he has a chip in his head

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Wanna see something really strange? Watch the latest episode with the Pegasus.

When The Admiral and Baltar are walking down the hallway talking about the Regasus Cylon prisoner they have to guards behind them. One white, one black.

Six appears and says to Baltar "I wonder who the cylon will be. A stranger, a familiar face". When she says a familur face she looks at the black guard very obviously and smiles. Baltar kinda smirks and tickles her hand. Even stranger just before six says that I could swear the same guard actually LOOKS AT HER! That part could have been bad acting though. Is this the same black guard from "The farm"?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Yes, it's hard to believe that you cannot detect a fiber-optical interconnect in an arm If all humanoid cylons were equipped with one, they'd be pretty easy to detect, I guess.

So I guess `movie logic' also allows that he has a chip in his head

She may be able to organically bond with it.

[gethigh]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Wanna see something really strange? Watch the latest episode with the Pegasus.

When The Admiral and Baltar are walking down the hallway talking about the Regasus Cylon prisoner they have to guards behind them. One white, one black.

Six appears and says to Baltar "I wonder who the cylon will be. A stranger, a familiar face". When she says a familur face she looks at the black guard very obviously and smiles. Baltar kinda smirks and tickles her hand. Even stranger just before six says that I could swear the same guard actually LOOKS AT HER! That part could have been bad acting though. Is this the same black guard from "The farm"?

Watched that scene again and I didn't catch this (it was pretty quick). I'm pretty sure that that is not the same actor who played "Simon" if that's the 'black guard' you're referring too (the Cylon Doctor).

Or are you talking about one of those resistance members (because I don't remember much about those guys except the Starbuck's fling and the black lady who gets hooked up to the farm).

[PacHead]

I liked the original series when I was a kid. This new one I cannot get into. I saw one episode last week and they had this really lame titanic sounding music in one scene. It just seems too soap opera like for my tastes, too watered down, and not that sci-fi. The effects on the new one are better for sure, but big ****ing deal.

[Voch]

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

I remember reading somewhere that the seasons pick up again on January 14th, but I can't seem to find it now.

Linky to TV.com. I guess we're still in the middle of Season 2?

Voch

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Wanna see something really strange? Watch the latest episode with the Pegasus.

When The Admiral and Baltar are walking down the hallway talking about the Regasus Cylon prisoner they have to guards behind them. One white, one black.

Six appears and says to Baltar "I wonder who the cylon will be. A stranger, a familiar face". When she says a familur face she looks at the black guard very obviously and smiles. Baltar kinda smirks and tickles her hand. Even stranger just before six says that I could swear the same guard actually LOOKS AT HER! That part could have been bad acting though. Is this the same black guard from "The farm"?

She does look back when she says "familiar face", although it's hard to tell if she's looking at the guard or at something off camera. I don't see the guard doing much with his eyes at all, which is probably what you'd expect from an extra who just needs to put on a costume and stand in one scene. But the guard is definitely not Simon, the doctor/cylon back on Caprica, if that's who you're referring to. If it isn't, I'm not sure of anyone in that episode who would fit the description of a guard, but I don't have that particular episode on my computer.

I hope they do bring back Simon at some point. He's definitely my favorite cylon, mainly for being so creepy in his single appearance. He's also the best dressed, which makes one wonder where the cylons go for tailored suits.