[wataru]

I have been doing some light research on OCPD, and I was hoping some people here might be able to share a bit about it. Really anything at all would be helpful, but specifically I'm wondering about relationships with OCPD sufferers. Does anyone have any stories or experiences relating to this?

[mdc]

want me to type out the section out of my abnormal psychology textbook?

but yeah, i would be interested in hearing a real life view point of living with or around someone with ocd.

[wataru]

Heh, thanks, but the textbook definition is about all google would show me.

And note that I'm not talking about obsessive compulsive disorder. This is obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which is quite different. In a nutshell, it means you're super anal about things, to a degree that it interferes with you getting things done. This is not where you wash your hands constantly or avoid stepping on cracks in the sidewalk.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by wataru:
Heh, thanks, but the textbook definition is about all google would show me.

And note that I'm not talking about obsessive compulsive disorder. This is obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which is quite different. In a nutshell, it means you're super anal about things, to a degree that it interferes with you getting things done. This is not where you wash your hands constantly or avoid stepping on cracks in the sidewalk.

You would have to ask my wife what its like. I do think that they are very similar.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by wataru:
This is obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which is quite different. In a nutshell, it means you're super anal about things, to a degree that it interferes with you getting things done. *snip*

That almost sounds like me sometimes, trying to be a prefectionist! But it doesn't get in the way getting things done, so I'm probably not that bad.

[Spliffdaddy]

omg, the stories I could tell.

Let's just say it's totally strange - but after a while their behaviour becomes predictable - which seems to be in direct conflict with the obsessive/compulsive 'disorder'.

To some degree, everyone exhibits this behaviour. Ever known any people who suddenly decide they're gonna, say, start going to the gym to work out? They'll go from being a couch potato to spending hours in the gym. Then after a while, something else will get their attention and they'll veer off on another tangent.

The level of commitment they (obsessive/compulsive) show to each endeavour they undertake is mind-blowing. But always short-lived. And seldom makes sense to the logical mind. It's a compulsion, after all. They feel compelled to do something - usually without giving any thought to the reason.

It's best described as an "all or nothing" mindset.

I'll try to think of a good story about my ex-wife.

[Randman]

I can give you insights on someone with BPD, which often manifests itself with OCD undertones.

[wataru]

Again, this is OCPD, not OCD. But whatever. The more the merrier.

[Randman]

BPD is an OCPD.

[wataru]

Ok, great, just bring on the anecdote or whatever.

[Randman]

Borderline Personality Disorder is a form of mental illness that is often found in survivors of childhood sexual, physical and emotional abuse. Some abused parties develop BPD and some do not for reasons that are unclear. BPD seems to run in families, but it is not yet known if this is due to genetic or environmental factors. _ BPD is very common but frequently undiagnosed or misdiagnosed as Bipolar Disorder.

DSM Definition of BPD

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects (mood swings), and marked Impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1.Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.(Desperation / rage if they think they are being abandoned, intense feelings of sadness, loss and fear when their partner is away, a need to have access to the partner at all times, inability to allow their partner their own life and friends, a belief that healthy independence in their partner is a threat to them.) _ _
2.A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. (The partner of the person with BPD, friends, coworkers or the person with BPD themself _is seen as wonderful or perfect, or as evil and rotten. People and things are seen as rigidly black and white by people with BPD - there is no normal middle ground.) People with BPD are highly intolerant of / unable to deal with the gray areas in life. This is called "splitting." _

3.Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. (Confusion about goals, career, life choices, sexuality or sexual orientation. Persistent questions and discomfort with their perceived role in life. Pervasive issues related to "who am I" and "what is my role in the world". _Many people with BPD change careers frequently or enter careers that give them a clearly defined framework and sense of identity, like large corporations or the military. Others fall prey to cults or fundamentalist religions that control all aspects of their life. Fundamentalism can be comforting for people with BPD since the "black and white" nature of these religions give them a framework that fits their world view.) _
4.Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging
e.g., uncontrolled spending, _reckless driving, substance abuse, dangerous sexual acts or unsafe sex, binge eating, thrill seeking or risk taking behaviors.

5.Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. This can be manifested as overt suicide attempts, drug or alcohol abuse, unsafe sexual behavior, or as a pattern of "living dangerously"; this also includes cutting, burning, piercing, and sexual self mutilation. _

6.Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days. (People with BPD are intensely moody and volatile emotionally - mood swings and huge shifts occur seemingly "out of nowhere". This is why people with BPD are often misdiagnosed as having Bipolar disorder, and therefore improperly medicated.)

7.Chronic feelings of emptiness. (Generally manifested as sadness, loneliness, isolation, aimlessness, feeling empty without a project or relationship to distract them. _People with BPD's low self esteem is often masked by public displays of ego, feelings of superiority or an intense need to _control themselves, other people, places and events.) _

8.Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger
e.g., frequent displays of temper, uncontrolled anger, violent rages, _recurrent physical fights, threats, sexualized expression of anger through violent or abusive sex.

9.Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
(BPD may manifest as a belief that those who love them wish to hurt, control or destroy them. This is especially common in times of stress. Ongoing belief that they are being followed, threatened, observed or are always at risk. BPD's see the world as a dangerous and frightening place and remain constantly on guard, even in safe environments and with safe people.)

[BRussell]

Originally posted by wataru:
I have been doing some light research on OCPD, and I was hoping some people here might be able to share a bit about it. Really anything at all would be helpful, but specifically I'm wondering about relationships with OCPD sufferers. Does anyone have any stories or experiences relating to this?

I don't know anyone with OCPD, but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with anyone with any kind of personality disorder, if I had the chance to get in one (or get out of one). The definition of a personality disorder is inflexibility, an inability to change; but change and flexibility is, IMO, absolutely essential to having a good long-term relationship.

I've heard of couples where one had OCD (no, not OCPD, but there are some similar behaviors), and it's not uncommon for the other to take on some of the behaviors. The rituals are such a big part of the OCD person's life, that the partner can't help but get involved. They start turning on and off the light 13 times when they enter a room, etc. Kind of a folie-a-deux but for OCD, I guess. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone with OCPD. Actually, I'd prefer to be with someone with OCD because that's probably more curable.

[Randman]

It's not easy. I've been in a relationship with a BPD, hence my knowledge on the subject. It's not easy, and it's not for everyone. My view on it was that it wasn't the other person's choice to be BPD and she has spent her entire life going through hell because of it, even if she wasn't always acutely aware of it.
And if you look at it as asthma or a hearing problem or something physical as well as mental, then, imo, it's a bit easier to deal with on the larger scale. On the day-to-day work, it's not as easy.
If you need more info or have questions, email me, or I can post links to a couple of websites that deal with it from the non (not having the disorder) side. It does help knowing that it's not just you, not just her and you can find tips for helping to manage things and to keep your head on straight.

[wataru]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't know anyone with OCPD, but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with anyone with any kind of personality disorder, if I had the chance to get in one (or get out of one).

Normally I'd agree with you 100%, but OCPD seems like it might be mild enough that it wouldn't be a problem.

To give some more detail on my situation: I find myself attracted to someone I know who has mentioned that she has OCPD. She's intelligent and very capable, so the disorder doesn't seem to be debilitating in her case (although I don't know her that well personally yet). I'm approaching things very cautiously, though, which is why I'm doing this research. I haven't made my intentions clear to her yet, so I can still bail out on this whole thing if I want to.

Randman: Please do post those sites. That's exactly the kind of thing I wanted, but couldn't find on Google. And thanks for posting the BPD info; a lot of that sounds like my ex.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by wataru:
Normally I'd agree with you 100%, but OCPD seems like it might be mild enough that it wouldn't be a problem.

To give some more detail on my situation: I find myself attracted to someone I know who has mentioned that she has OCPD. She's intelligent and very capable, so the disorder doesn't seem to be debilitating in her case (although I don't know her that well personally yet). I'm approaching things very cautiously, though, which is why I'm doing this research. I haven't made my intentions clear to her yet, so I can still bail out on this whole thing if I want to.

Randman: Please do post those sites. That's exactly the kind of thing I wanted, but couldn't find on Google. And thanks for posting the BPD info; a lot of that sounds like my ex.

So you're thinking about this twice just because she's been diagnosed with OCPD?
Do you know about the process by which a "disorder" is listed as a disorder in the DSM IV?

Everyone has one "disorder" or another. Making such a big deal out of it is pretty shallow on your part (unless I've mistaken what you're trying to do here).

[demograph68]

Originally posted by Randman:
Borderline Personality Disorder is a form of mental illness that is often found in survivors of childhood sexual, physical and emotional abuse. Some abused parties develop BPD and some do not for reasons that are unclear. BPD seems to run in families, but it is not yet known if this is due to genetic or environmental factors. _ BPD is very common but frequently undiagnosed or misdiagnosed as Bipolar Disorder.

I was like that for a while until I got treated for it through medication and counseling. It was definitely a scary time for me when it was at it's peak 3 years ago.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
So you're thinking about this twice just because she's been diagnosed with OCPD?
Do you know about the process by which a "disorder" is listed as a disorder in the DSM IV?

Everyone has one "disorder" or another. Making such a big deal out of it is pretty shallow on your part (unless I've mistaken what you're trying to do here).

My first instinct was to just blow it off as no big deal, but my last relationship also started with me minimizing her problems, and in the end they were too much for me to handle. I don't want a repeat of that, so I'm being cautious. But there are a lot of factors at play here, of which her OCPD is just one. I don't think of her as crazy or as "damaged goods," and I'm a bit offended at your accusation that I'm being shallow.

I have plenty of my own neuroses. I'm just trying to understand hers better before it's too late.

Edit: And for the record, I'm plenty skeptical of overdiagnosed psychological "diseases" myself, so don't think I'm just afraid of scary acronyms.

[Macfreak7]

Ok so I was mistaken. Being cautious is cool I guess.. over doing that is not. And I wasn't sure if you were over doing it. So never mind.

[Xeo]

Randman, I thought when you said BPD you were talking about Bi-polar disorder. I was trying to figure out what the connection would be to OCPD. Now I understand better, although psych is not a subject I know a lot about.

[icruise]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
That almost sounds like me sometimes, trying to be a prefectionist!

You may want to try a little harder...

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by Randman:
Borderline Personality Disorder is a form of mental illness that is often found in survivors of childhood sexual, physical and emotional abuse. Some abused parties develop BPD and some do not for reasons that are unclear. BPD seems to run in families, but it is not yet known if this is due to genetic or environmental factors. _ BPD is very common but frequently undiagnosed or misdiagnosed as Bipolar Disorder.

DSM Definition of BPD

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects (mood swings), and marked Impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1.Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.(Desperation / rage if they think they are being abandoned, intense feelings of sadness, loss and fear when their partner is away, a need to have access to the partner at all times, inability to allow their partner their own life and friends, a belief that healthy independence in their partner is a threat to them.) _ _
2.A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. (The partner of the person with BPD, friends, coworkers or the person with BPD themself _is seen as wonderful or perfect, or as evil and rotten. People and things are seen as rigidly black and white by people with BPD - there is no normal middle ground.) People with BPD are highly intolerant of / unable to deal with the gray areas in life. This is called "splitting." _

3.Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. (Confusion about goals, career, life choices, sexuality or sexual orientation. Persistent questions and discomfort with their perceived role in life. Pervasive issues related to "who am I" and "what is my role in the world". _Many people with BPD change careers frequently or enter careers that give them a clearly defined framework and sense of identity, like large corporations or the military. Others fall prey to cults or fundamentalist religions that control all aspects of their life. Fundamentalism can be comforting for people with BPD since the "black and white" nature of these religions give them a framework that fits their world view.) _
4.Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging
e.g., uncontrolled spending, _reckless driving, substance abuse, dangerous sexual acts or unsafe sex, binge eating, thrill seeking or risk taking behaviors.

5.Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. This can be manifested as overt suicide attempts, drug or alcohol abuse, unsafe sexual behavior, or as a pattern of "living dangerously"; this also includes cutting, burning, piercing, and sexual self mutilation. _

6.Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days. (People with BPD are intensely moody and volatile emotionally - mood swings and huge shifts occur seemingly "out of nowhere". This is why people with BPD are often misdiagnosed as having Bipolar disorder, and therefore improperly medicated.)

7.Chronic feelings of emptiness. (Generally manifested as sadness, loneliness, isolation, aimlessness, feeling empty without a project or relationship to distract them. _People with BPD's low self esteem is often masked by public displays of ego, feelings of superiority or an intense need to _control themselves, other people, places and events.) _

8.Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger
e.g., frequent displays of temper, uncontrolled anger, violent rages, _recurrent physical fights, threats, sexualized expression of anger through violent or abusive sex.

9.Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
(BPD may manifest as a belief that those who love them wish to hurt, control or destroy them. This is especially common in times of stress. Ongoing belief that they are being followed, threatened, observed or are always at risk. BPD's see the world as a dangerous and frightening place and remain constantly on guard, even in safe environments and with safe people.)

What the DSM doesn't mention is the most obvious outward sign of BPD: The ****ing teddy bears. When i am working in our Psych E.R., and you see a 26 year old girl come through the front door clutching a stuffed animal, everyone looks at each other and says "Borderline". They tend to be the most annoying of all psych patients. And yes, I know that saying they are annoying is neither compassionate or particularly nice, but my role in the mental health field doesn't really require either of those qualities. Jaded and cynical is a much better fit for my job.

[wataru]

My ex still has a teddy bear.

She doesn't bring it everywhere with her though.

About my original question: The more time I spend with her, the less important the whole OCPD thing feels. I'd still like to look at those sites Randman mentioned, though, and I still want to hear from anyone else who might have information about this kind of thing.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by wataru:
Heh, thanks, but the textbook definition is about all google would show me.

And note that I'm not talking about obsessive compulsive disorder. This is obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which is quite different. In a nutshell, it means you're super anal about things, to a degree that it interferes with you getting things done. This is not where you wash your hands constantly or avoid stepping on cracks in the sidewalk.

I don't really see that there is that much difference between the two. They don't necessarily mean the washing of hands. It is an activity that interferes with normal daily daily living. Something that the person feels compelled to accomplish. The need to complete tasks in a certain way. There is OCD and Personality Disorder.

[Randman]

Here's the link to a pretty solid forum on BPD. You can also find links to other related sites as well as other PD issues.
Not to hijack this thread, but since my experience is being with a high functioning BPD, the really scary and sad thing is visiting a forum for BPDs who know they have it and are trying to work matters through. The thought processes that go through. It really gave me an insight into what she might be going through on a daily basis and it wasn't pretty.
There was one sad post I remember where the girl said she knew deep down what was going on when she she going through a splitting/rage issue but she couldn't stop it as it was like watching someone else operate through her body. Really humbling.

[Peder Rice]

OCPD, when extreme, can mean a complete inability to finish even rudimentary tasks. For instance, I'm blowing off two papers and a final project right now, because the fear of failure is so great thanks to previous endeavors, that I cannot even begin any of these three assignments. I have a list of reading that includes twenty Forbes, ten Fast Company, and eight Discovery magazines; a book on intellectual property, Latin, and even Russian; and a host of novels. I feel compelled to read these to justify my inability to complete homework assignments, but the stack of "to-do" items has now grown so large, that I'm afraid that I'll never finish it, and therein I haven't read any of the array of publications in months.

This is the worst part of OCPD; the inability to do so many things out of a strict adherence to impossible rules. I am morally obligated to finish my homework the best that I can do it and to read every book in my library, but I know that I just can't do that, at least not anytime soon. But the fact that I can't makes me feel all the more compelled to actually complete them, thereby establishing a great deal of frustration, which vents easily as anger. A week and a half ago a friend of many years and I shared exclamations of love (the most open I've been in perhaps my entire life), but just the other day I vented at her, most likely destroying in one fell swoop what we've built all this time. She had made mention of careers, a soft spot for me. Any mention of careers and possible success after college makes me furious, for I know that my perfectionist tendencies will act as a ceiling in my ventures. She cradled the subject a little too long, and I couldn't help but explode in anger. But then again, I had known that an outburst such as this was bound to happen anyway, as my rigid expressions were certainly set on colliding with her lifestyle.

I've read horrible things of OCD, social anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, and the many other common disorders that plague millions. But an obsessive compulsive personality has the possibility of bearing characteristics of all the above. It can be at times a hell to even understand, let alone experience. I have pity on those who can be a greater perfectionist than I.