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starman · Oct 12, 2004, 08:11 AM

Hi all,
I was getting into a rather heated discussion with a friend of mine last night about the ethics of playing blackjack. It boils down to this - I don't feel that I'm responsible for anyone else getting the card they should or shouldn't have had because I made a decision based on whether or not I felt I was going to win or lose. For example, let's say I get a 12 and decide NOT to hit. I could conceivably win, and have many times. The problem is that there's this mentality at a blackjack table where someone next to you busted because they got the 10 that I SHOULD HAVE taken, lost because I chose to be safe. Is that right? I don't think so. If I choose to play a certain way, then that's what I'm going to do. He told me I should not play blackjack with that attitude. I said that when there's a rule against making my own mind up, then I'll stop playing. I suggested just feeding my "rules" into a computer instead and let it play for me while I'm at the bar.

Mike

Fiend · Oct 12, 2004, 08:25 AM

I'm with you on this one. It is my hand and my money. If they feel you are 'taking their card' often, for example, they can get up and move to your other side or change tables. Or in your example, not taking a card that often busts you, and it busts them, too damn bad. Those 'unwritten' rules aren't going to make me change how I play with my money.

Apple Pro Underwear · Oct 12, 2004, 08:27 AM

no morals or ethics when should be taken into consideration when gambling

it's the nature of the game

if your wife/gf is on the table, tell them you're ruthless and to get the f*ck out of your face

mitchell_pgh · Oct 12, 2004, 08:31 AM

It all depends. Because you can predict the cards to a small degree, you can pass cards knowing that the cards will be high or low (because that's what is remaining in the deck)...

I guess I don't know enough about the game... but I kick butt on Yahoo!

Lee33 · Oct 12, 2004, 08:34 AM

I think that's silly. We can't be "responsible" for the people next to us at a gambling table. Should I feel bad because I got a promotion that other guy may have gotten had I not worked at the company? Of course not.

macroy · Oct 12, 2004, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by starman:
Hi all,
I was getting into a rather heated discussion with a friend of mine last night about the ethics of playing blackjack. It boils down to this - I don't feel that I'm responsible for anyone else getting the card they should or shouldn't have had because I made a decision based on whether or not I felt I was going to win or lose. For example, let's say I get a 12 and decide NOT to hit. I could conceivably win, and have many times. The problem is that there's this mentality at a blackjack table where someone next to you busted because they got the 10 that I SHOULD HAVE taken, lost because I chose to be safe. Is that right? I don't think so. If I choose to play a certain way, then that's what I'm going to do. He told me I should not play blackjack with that attitude. I said that when there's a rule against making my own mind up, then I'll stop playing. I suggested just feeding my "rules" into a computer instead and let it play for me while I'm at the bar.

Mike

I've seen folks get upset if you take a card when you don't really need it...

But I would have to agree that you would come first, then the other players. I'm also not a big time card player... so I'm only going by what little experience I've had.

Millennium · Oct 12, 2004, 08:52 AM

You are no more responsible for the other players than they are responsible for you.

It's called gambling for a reason. What is this "should" crap anyway? A large part of the point of the game is that you can choose to hit or stand, but whichever way you choose, you must live with the consequences of your choice. You cannot affect anyone else's choices. In this way it's kind of like real life, though this is a fact of life which fewer and fewer people accept today.

Let's look at this ten that you "should" have taken, and say that you took the card and busted. Almost a third of the cards in a deck count as ten under the rules of Blackjack, so who is to say that the ten you drew was not followed by another ten? If it is, and the next player draws it and busts, this is obviously not your fault, so why is it that the card before it should be your fault? It's not possible to perfectly predict which card will come up next unless there is only one card left.

The person to your left did not lose because you chose to be safe. He lost because he decided to take the risk of hitting. You did not influence his decision (though perhaps you should have; if I saw someone standing on a 12 I know I'd stop and think for a second), and you did not influence the outcome of that decision.

Turias · Oct 12, 2004, 09:03 AM

Feeling responsible for the other players is a load of crap. Odds say that for each card you "take away from them" that would have helped, you'll take one away that would have hurt.

If anything, they should thank you for hitting too many times, since that will increase their odds of making a correct decision if they do any kind of counting.

buffalolee · Oct 12, 2004, 10:17 AM

When we play at the table with other players, we all risk losing/gaining our cards to some player. It is reality and nothing can change that.

James L · Oct 12, 2004, 10:22 AM

If you are obligated to take the next card, knowing there is a good chance it will bust you, just to protect the dude next to you, then HE should be obligated to pay part of the money you just lost!

I say your friend is an idiot. It's called gambling, and if people do not want to take the chances, stay outta the pool!

GoGoReggieXPowars · Oct 12, 2004, 10:51 AM

What utter bollocks. No one knows what that next card is, so it cannot be "your" card to take. Your friend sounds rather naive when it comes to gambling. Your duty is for your hand only, unless you're part of a team.

Eriamjh · Oct 12, 2004, 11:28 AM

You KNEW the next card was a 10 and it would bust you. He got it and buisted. He cannot blame you because he should have passed.

It's gambling. All for one and one for YOU. You cannot feel responsible. To do so contradicts the point of you playing at all.

Tell your friend to eff off if he thinks you should be helping him. How would that help you?

Randman · Oct 12, 2004, 11:29 AM

Wow, I hope I don't end up at a table with most of you.

Having lived in Las Vegas and being an avid blackjack player, having played in the US, Europe, Australia and Asia, if it's played correctly, blackjack is a team sport. If all are playing by the odds, the chance of everyone making money is slightly higher. Sometimes, it's fair play to take one for the team because someone else might help you out in the next hand. Also, if others are playing a hand with a large amount of money and I could hit or stay (or split), I'll often ask out of courtesy.
I hate playing with people who don't know how to play and even moreso with people who play stupidly.

Mrjinglesusa · Oct 12, 2004, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Randman:
Wow, I hope I don't end up at a table with most of you.

Having lived in Las Vegas and being an avid blackjack player, having played in the US, Europe, Australia and Asia, if it's played correctly, blackjack is a team sport. If all are playing by the odds, the chance of everyone making money is slightly higher. Sometimes, it's fair play to take one for the team because someone else might help you out in the next hand. Also, if others are playing a hand with a large amount of money and I could hit or stay (or split), I'll often ask out of courtesy.
I hate playing with people who don't know how to play and even moreso with people who play stupidly.

Exactly. I will leave a table if people are not playing the odds. There is a "right" way to play BJ and I only sit at a table if I see that most are playing correctly and not hitting 12 and 13 when the dealer is showing a low card.

scaught · Oct 12, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
Exactly. I will leave a table if people are not playing the odds. There is a "right" way to play BJ and I only sit at a table if I see that most are playing correctly and not hitting 12 and 13 when the dealer is showing a low card.

exactly.

i believe there are some basic rules you should follow.

this "gut feeling" stuff has no place in blackjack. its one of the few games where you can almost have an edge. the "house" wants you to follow your gut feeling.

why do you think the house wins alot? cause theyre not afraid to hit on 16. well you know. because its the rules of the game.

E's Lil Theorem · Oct 12, 2004, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Randman:
Wow, I hope I don't end up at a table with most of you.

Having lived in Las Vegas and being an avid blackjack player, having played in the US, Europe, Australia and Asia, if it's played correctly, blackjack is a team sport. If all are playing by the odds, the chance of everyone making money is slightly higher. Sometimes, it's fair play to take one for the team because someone else might help you out in the next hand. Also, if others are playing a hand with a large amount of money and I could hit or stay (or split), I'll often ask out of courtesy.
I hate playing with people who don't know how to play and even moreso with people who play stupidly.

When I go to Vegas and play blackjack, I only play with friends. We have a rule that there has to be at least three of us at the table, with one or two of us sitting at the very end. It doesn't always work out, but it seems to increase our chances of winning/not losing too much.

Truepop · Oct 12, 2004, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by E's Lil Theorem:
When I go to Vegas and play blackjack, I only play with friends. We have a rule that there has to be at least three of us at the table, with one or two of us sitting at the very end. It doesn't always work out, but it seems to increase our chances of winning/not losing too much.

so you guys work together to win money together or win independently?

Apple Pro Underwear · Oct 12, 2004, 12:41 PM

it's dumb to work together in my opinion.

if you're counting cards, every revealed card is information to your odds.

if your friends "play correctly" or not, it doesn't help. the numbers and percentages help you only if you know what they are.

Turias · Oct 12, 2004, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by scaught:
exactly.

i believe there are some basic rules you should follow.

this "gut feeling" stuff has no place in blackjack. its one of the few games where you can almost have an edge. the "house" wants you to follow your gut feeling.

why do you think the house wins alot? cause theyre not afraid to hit on 16. well you know. because its the rules of the game.

Well, there are definitely some basic rules to blackjack that everyone should follow, but even if person A is playing like a moron, that will not affect the chances of person B winning.

The only exception to this is if A never hits and B wants to count. In cases like this, B might get pissed since he/she is not able to count as many cards.

E's Lil Theorem · Oct 12, 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Truepop:
so you guys work together to win money together or win independently?

We win independently. The reason we play together is because we know the game a little more than the average Joe. You're already risking plenty by playing. Why risk even more by playing with someone who's going to risk busting when the dealer shows a six?

I've never won big at Vegas, but I've never lost either. I always win a bit or come out even.

Randman · Oct 12, 2004, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
even if person A is playing like a moron, that will not affect the chances of person B winning.

That's what the casinos want you to think.

Turias · Oct 12, 2004, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Randman:
That's what the casinos want you to think.

Well, unless you can prove every statistical analysis of Blackjack false, then the casinos are right.

kupan787 · Oct 12, 2004, 02:22 PM

It is more important to play bust the dealer than it is to play 21 for your self. If the table is doing this, everyones odds are better.

Last time I went gambling, this guy playing 3rd base was playing like an ass. At one point, the dealer had a 4 or 5 showing. Everyone from 1st base around stood on their cards. The guy at 3rd base had 2x10s. You would think it was a no brainer. But no, he choose to split 10s!!! (who the hell does that). He ended up drawing two high cards (a 10 and a 7), and the dealer made 18. Everyone at the table lost, except for the tard who split, and he pushed (won one, lost one). The dealer would have busted had he done nothing. This went on for awhile, most the table was getting pissed because the guy at 3rd base was being an idiot.

The funniest moment was a different time this guy was doing something similar (hitting at really stupid times). After one hand the dealer looked at him and said "Are you sure you know how to play blackjack?" The guy got up and left, and everyone else at the table had a good chuckle