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Paco500 · Oct 12, 2004, 11:36 AM

This may be better suited for one of the technical forums, but I wasn't sure which one and there are lots of smart folks here, so I want your thoughts.

I have, I would guess, ~1 TB of various media, mostly pictures and DV of my kids, that my wife has made clear that if I loose it due to a drive failure, she's divorcing me.

So I want back-ups.

The various media I can think of- CD-R, DVD-R, DV Tape, HDD's, and one of the real backup tape flavors.

CD-R and DVD-R would clearly be the least expensive, but capacity is really low and I have read that CD-R's degrade and become unreadable over no too much time- is the same true of DVD-R?

DV-Tape- There is at least one app out there that allows you to use your Mini-DV camera as a backup device, holding 10GB of data each. So ~100 tapes for a complete backup. Expensive, and is my mini-DV camera really going to last with that kind of wear and tear. Also, what is the shelf life of mini-dv tape?

HDD's- Cheap (relatively), fast, but prone to failure.

Real tape backup device- Expensive, but reliable. To get tapes with decent capacity, were talking over a grand, and the media isn't inexpensive either.

So does anyone here backup a lot of data, how do you do it? Or you smart folks that don't do it, how would you design it?

Powaqqatsi · Oct 12, 2004, 11:56 AM

http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/ This ?

I'd buy a tape backup system...

storer · Oct 12, 2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/ This ?

Expensive...

Captain Obvious · Oct 12, 2004, 05:45 PM

DVDr - cheap and you can make several copies and keep them in a couple of locations. Keep copies in a safe, bank deposit box, etc. They will last longer then the other types of media. get a program to break up the files between disks.

Total cost less than $150

Xeo · Oct 12, 2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
DVDr - cheap and you can make several copies and keep them in a couple of locations. Keep copies in a safe, bank deposit box, etc. They will last longer then the other types of media. get a program to break up the files between disks.

Total cost less than $150

Agreed. Out of all the options, this is probably the least expensive and it is very reliable. If you don't have a burner yet, buy one for the $80 they are going for now. As for the media, the math comes to 223 DVD-Rs to hold a TB of data. Not bad considering you can buy a 100 pack for around $50.

Just a suggestion, categorize them. Create some kind of database that keeps track of all the DVDs and their contents. Then, on the last DVD, burn that database to it and keep it as the top one in the spindle. This will make life easier. Having 2 full spindles of video of your children, and being asked to recall a specific event on command, would be a pain.

Beewee · Oct 12, 2004, 06:39 PM

DVD is a good way to go, but don't go cheap on the non-name generic DVDs. Verbatim...God I love that company so so much. These are the guys that you want to buy your media from. The discs are a little more expensive but worth it. I have burned through about 30 DVDs and not one coaster yet!

storer · Oct 13, 2004, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
then

than

Xeo · Oct 13, 2004, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Beewee:
DVD is a good way to go, but don't go cheap on the non-name generic DVDs. Verbatim...God I love that company so so much. These are the guys that you want to buy your media from. The discs are a little more expensive but worth it. I have burned through about 30 DVDs and not one coaster yet!

Agreed. Verbatim media has always worked well both in CDs and DVDs. You can get a 50-pack of Verbatim DVD-Rs for about $35 (plus shipping). Check newegg and ebay.

Powaqqatsi · Oct 13, 2004, 02:08 AM

How is DVD-R more reliable than CD-R ?

Paco500 · Oct 13, 2004, 08:05 PM

Which begs my original question- do DVD-Rs degrade in the same was and as quickly as CD-Rs do? Has anyone ever read anything about this?

It seems to me it could take, realistically, months to write 233 DVDs, and if they aren't reliable...

OreoCookie · Oct 14, 2004, 08:02 AM

What's your budget for a backup?

A raid would be one possible solution. DVDs don't work, just by the sheer amount of data.

Powaqqatsi · Oct 14, 2004, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Paco500:
Which begs my original question- do DVD-Rs degrade in the same was and as quickly as CD-Rs do? Has anyone ever read anything about this?

It seems to me it could take, realistically, months to write 233 DVDs, and if they aren't reliable...

That's exactly what I'm wondering myself. I think they degrade just like normal CD-R's.

Randman · Oct 14, 2004, 08:16 AM

Raid for a home backup is too much and too expensive.
Get an external HD or two and keep some stuff there. The rest, burn to DVD and keep away from your home (in case of fire or theft or something like that).

As far as degrading, I would think if in a controlled environment, such as bank safety deposit box or locker safe, they'll last much longer than normal and even then, discs don't degrade that much unless you leave them parked on your car dash for a week, then wash them in the pool and finally let them sit in the snow for a few days.

G4ME · Oct 14, 2004, 08:50 AM

thats what i have been doing worng

still think a LaCie TB firewire drive would be the simplest, its not prone to failure if you use it once a month to back up.

macroy · Oct 14, 2004, 08:59 AM

You mentioned you wanted to protect from a HD failure.... is that the only thing you're looking to do? if so, a RAID array will do... but that won't protect you from accidental erasures or file corruptions..

If archiving them is your goal - I'm not sure you'll find anything less expensive than manual DVD backups. It will take awhile to get what you already have on them... but after that, it shouldn't be a big deal. As for cd rot or DVD rot (I'm sure that exists too) - I think if you keep them in a protected place and not just leave them on your desk, they should be fine. In fact, they'll probably be obsolete before they go bad. Safe deposit boxes are great as they're climate controlled... and safe.

If it was me.. .I'd do both.

Just my .02

wataru · Oct 14, 2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Paco500:
if I loose it

lose

Xeo · Oct 14, 2004, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Paco500:
Which begs my original question- do DVD-Rs degrade in the same was and as quickly as CD-Rs do? Has anyone ever read anything about this?

It seems to me it could take, realistically, months to write 233 DVDs, and if they aren't reliable...

I'm not sure why you think CD-Rs degrade quickly. They are supposed to have a shelf life of 150-300 years or so, assuming they are not exposed to harsh light, temperature, or scratches. Earlier ones were less reliable but current ones are good. And DVD has more error correction than a CD so they are that much more reliable.

You are not likely to use your backups very often. Hopefully not ever. So they just sit in a cool dry place, dark perhaps, and they won't degrade. Maybe in 5 years when Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is out and not expensive you can take all your DVDs and put them on the newer, bigger discs. You'll consolidate and start your "degradation" timer all over again.

Seriously, the hard drive you have your data on now is going to fail before those DVDs will.

DeathToWindows · Oct 14, 2004, 02:28 PM

I was going to advocate a FireWire 400 raid system... unless you have a great deal of time, DVD burning is impractical (233DVDs x 20min = ~3.25 DAYS of burning)

Maybe get your hands on an older tower... feed it an ATA133 or SATA card and just shove drives in it... yes, it's less than portable, but it is cheap (250GB SATA $100 x4 + tower)

turtle777 · Oct 14, 2004, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Paco500:

I have, I would guess, ~1 TB of various media, mostly pictures and DV of my kids, that my wife has made clear that if I loose it due to a drive failure, she's divorcing me.

That's a lot of stuff !
What is all that ? P0rn ? Why does your wife require back-ups ?

-t

Beewee · Oct 14, 2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Xeo:
harsh light, temperature, or scratches. Earlier ones were less reliable but current ones are good. And DVD has more error correction than a CD so they are that much more reliable.

Harsh Temps especially. Discs warp can in direct sunlight which makes em worthless, so don't leave them in your car

.

Heat, I had a backup that I left in my computer for about a year. It was always in there from startup to shut down. Then one day I took it out as I was moving my computer. The thing fell to the floor and was so brittle because of the heat that it shattered like glass.

Also heat can screw up the dye that is written on, especially if they are the cheap generic dics. I have had CDs where the dye eroded away on the inside. I was left with discs that had pieces of "glitter" floating around inside it...very pretty but again not very useful

Most of this is common sense just treat them the same as you treat all of you other really important stuff.

d.fine · Oct 14, 2004, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by G4ME:
still think a LaCie TB firewire drive would be the simplest, its not prone to failure if you use it once a month to back up.

I also think this is the best idea ...

GoGoReggieXPowars · Oct 14, 2004, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
I was going to advocate a FireWire 400 raid system... unless you have a great deal of time, DVD burning is impractical (233DVDs x 20min = ~3.25 DAYS of burning)

It's not impractical at all. He's not going to sit there for 3.25 days straight just burning things. Do a few here and there, and they'll be done soon enough.

The ideal solution would have been to backup as you go, this way you're not faced with such a daunting task.

urbatronik · Oct 14, 2004, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by storer:
than

thanx

Xeo · Oct 14, 2004, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by GoGoReggieXPowars:
It's not impractical at all. He's not going to sit there for 3.25 days straight just burning things. Do a few here and there, and they'll be done soon enough.

The ideal solution would have been to backup as you go, this way you're not faced with such a daunting task.

Agreed. We are talking about backing up DV which is not a daily backup. There is no reason why fixed media like DVD-Rs won't work. Yes, it will take a while to do it, but automating the process would help greatly. You can have your computer arrange the files into sets of 4.6GB and even make DMGs for a few to get you ready for burning. As for the actual burn, it's just a set it and forget it thing. You don't need to baby sit it, nor do them all at once.