[JohnnyAppleseed]

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/041012/w101202.html

Suicide is Painless

Through early morning fog I see,
Visions of the things to be,
The pains that are withheld for me,
I realize and I can see...

That suicide is painless.

It brings on many changes.

And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make,
All our little joys relate,
Without that ever-present hate,
But now I know that it's too late, and...


The game of life is hard to play,
I'm gonna lose it anyway.
The losing card I'll someday lay,
So this is all I have to say.


The only way to win is cheat,
And lay it down before I'm beat,
And to another give my seat,
For that's the only painless feat.


The sword of time will pierce our skins.
It doesn't hurt when it begins.
But as it works its way on in,
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...


A brave man once requested me,
to answer questions that are key.
Is it to be or not to be?
And I replied 'Oh why ask me?'


'Cause suicide is painless.

It brings on many changes.

And I can take or leave it if I please.

...And you can do the same thing if you choose.

[Fiend]

Theme song for M*A*S*H*.

The only song I ever learned on the guitar.

[OldManMac]

There are almost as many suicides annually in America as there are people killed in vehicle deaths. Mental health is America's number one issue.

[memento]

KarlG, not to discount the tragedy of suicide, but without numbers I don't believe that it is America's number 1 issue.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by memento:
KarlG, not to discount the tragedy of suicide, but without numbers I don't believe that it is America's number 1 issue.

I never said suicide was America's number one issue. I stated that Mental Health was America's number on issue. In no particular order, these are all results of Americans' mental health problems. None of these actions, as well as many others, are performed by someone who doesn't have mental health issues. We don't talk about that in America, because it is stigmatized, and that's primarily because we don't want to admit to ourselves, and others, that we might have some mental health issues of our own, even though they may be minor. We put on a facade, to the outside world, and deal with many of these issues by locking the perpetrators away, so we can isolate them even further from our collective conscience.

Suicide
Murder
Teen age pregnancy
Drug abuse
Alcohol Abuse
Spousal Abuse
Child Abuse
Crime
Road Rage
Assault

Here's an excellent example of families with mental health issues. Why is a 23-year old "man" allowed to wed a 15 year old child, and why does she already have two children with him?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3801442/detail.html

ClickOnDetroit.com
Missing Mom Found; Child In Critical Condition
Father Claims Baby Fell Out Of Swing

POSTED: 7:47 p.m. EDT October 11, 2004
UPDATED: 10:17 p.m. EDT October 11, 2004

A 23-year-old man is being held on suspicion that he may have abused his 5-month-old son, police said.

Authorities had been searching for the man's 15-year-old wife, Carol Bazzi, after investigating the child's injuries at their Detroit home on Sunday, Local 4 reported.
Video

Police found Bazzi Monday afternoon and placed her in protective custody.

A neighbor of the couple (pictured, left) called 911 after she realized the boy was not breathing.

"When I opened up the door, the baby was not breathing. The dad had him, like, rocking him, and he was patting on his back trying to get him to breathe," the woman said.

The woman said she gave the child CPR and he appeared to go in and out of consciousness.

"He cried for a little bit, so I thought he was OK, (but) he went back and rolled his eyes in the back of his head," she said.

The boy was taken to a local hospital, where he's reported in critical condition.

Police questioned the child's father, who said that he had secured the boy in a swing and the child fell asleep. The father said he also fell asleep and when he awoke, he found the boy facedown on the floor.

Investigators said the child's injuries do not match up with the father's story, Local 4 reported.

Police are also questioning Bazzi, who has two children with the man.

Local 4 learned that the father is an illegal immigrant. He could face abuse charges, police said.

[Atomic Rooster]

But this is in Japan ...not the U.S.

Finding people depressed like yourself on the internet for group suicides is really sad.



This is the first I've heard of it.

[ironknee]

wow that's strange

[CD Hanks]

I think people are getting hopeless over how the world's outlook appears.

What is odd is that most people are getting too worked up over what may or may not occur.

Conversely, seeing as the here and now bears some heavy significance, it's not surprising that most political parties (while all giving the allusion they're working for us) are basically screwing us all in the process of trying to get on top.

feh

[OldManMac]

So I referred to the U.S. and not Japan. I was referring to the topic of suicide, and stated my opinion on some issues, and that means that people who have these opinions, including mental health professionals, are depressed? Please elucidate.

[Superchicken]

North America is promoting an unbonded society, live for yourself, be for yourself, only you. How alone must this make people feel? Bonding is one of the basic psychological necessities.

There are all sorts of theological statements I could make about what is ideal and what north america is choosing to do (on relational levels), but suffice it to say. The western world in general is choosing to ignore what we know in our deepest selves what is right.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
North America is promoting an unbonded society, live for yourself, be for yourself, only you. How alone must this make people feel? Bonding is one of the basic psychological necessities.

There are all sorts of theological statements I could make about what is ideal and what north america is choosing to do (on relational levels), but suffice it to say. The western world in general is choosing to ignore what we know in our deepest selves what is right.

Keep in mind that we humans are social creatures, not communal.

A price we pay for the intelligence we can possess is that we realize we are very much alone in this world. There are very few people each of us can truly depend on through thick and tin.

But, with intelligence comes the ability to realize that life is worth living, but you're going to have to experience a lot of pain in the growth process (I'm referring to mental maturity rather than the inevitable physical process.)

Simply put, we're wising up, it's a scary thing, life bares a lot of pain, and we're just now learning how to effectively deal with it on a personal level. Religion used to fill the social void and provide comfort in times of need. They are still trying to do this now, but not doing a very good job at it.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
I think people are getting hopeless over how the world's outlook appears.

What is odd is that most people are getting too worked up over what may or may not occur.

Conversely, seeing as the here and now bears some heavy significance, it's not surprising that most political parties (while all giving the allusion they're working for us) are basically screwing us all in the process of trying to get on top.

feh

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Keep in mind that we humans are social creatures, not communal.

A price we pay for the intelligence we can possess is that we realize we are very much alone in this world. There are very few people each of us can truly depend on through thick and tin.

But, with intelligence comes the ability to realize that life is worth living, but you're going to have to experience a lot of pain in the growth process (I'm referring to mental maturity rather than the inevitable physical process.)

Simply put, we're wising up, it's a scary thing, life bares a lot of pain, and we're just now learning how to effectively deal with it on a personal level. Religion used to fill the social void and provide comfort in times of need. They are still trying to do this now, but not doing a very good job at it.

This is not the way it's always been, and this is not the way it should be. A major theme through out Christianity, and through out the Old Testament scriptures is community, and unity. This is not to say this has always been expressed by God's followers. But ultimately humans are built for communion with one another and with God. In North America we often cut ourselves off from God, and cut ourselves off from His image bareing people, (IE everyone else). Because we are to worried about getting hurt, because in our society it is acceptable to hurt and misuse people. Not to murder not to rape, but meaningless sex, not paying someone for their work, suing if the law might maybe support your case, and in general not treating other people the way that you would want to be treated.
Our culture is a selfish one that only looks out for itself. Of most of the people I've known who have committed suicide, attempted or seriously thought about it (myself included) it's been because they learned that nobody loved them, and thus when the rare cases of people showing them love came about, they would push it away because that's the only way they could keep themselves from being hurt any more.

That said, the result of going through all the crap in my life means that I can help other people, which is a good thing. I just wish my help was unneeded.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
This is not the way it's always been, and this is not the way it should be. A major theme through out Christianity, and through out the Old Testament scriptures is community, and unity. This is not to say this has always been expressed by God's followers. But ultimately humans are built for communion with one another and with God. In North America we often cut ourselves off from God, and cut ourselves off from His image bareing people, (IE everyone else). Because we are to worried about getting hurt, because in our society it is acceptable to hurt and misuse people. Not to murder not to rape, but meaningless sex, not paying someone for their work, suing if the law might maybe support your case, and in general not treating other people the way that you would want to be treated.
Our culture is a selfish one that only looks out for itself. Of most of the people I've known who have committed suicide, attempted or seriously thought about it (myself included) it's been because they learned that nobody loved them, and thus when the rare cases of people showing them love came about, they would push it away because that's the only way they could keep themselves from being hurt any more.

That said, the result of going through all the crap in my life means that I can help other people, which is a good thing. I just wish my help was unneeded.

As wacky as this seems, you're putting too much faith that a Judeo-Christian god exists.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Mental health is America's number one issue.

Hehe, that would make a great sig

-t

[Nicko]

I really miss that show.

[SamuraiDL]

futurama sux

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
As wacky as this seems, you're putting too much faith that a Judeo-Christian god exists.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

I find it rather humorous that it doesn't really matter if God exists or not, because the effect in this life is the same.

[mitchell_pgh]

The more connected we are thanks to technology, the more disconnected we become in reality.

I'm starting to believe this more and more all the time. Cell phones, IM, email, web...

It's dividing us... not bringing us together.

[Twilly Spree]

yeah

[hagheid]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
The more connected we are thanks to technology, the more disconnected we become in reality.

I'm starting to believe this more and more all the time. Cell phones, IM, email, web...

It's dividing us... not bringing us together.

technology IS reality
Do not pass Go>collect pension.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Nicko:


I really miss that show.

Ya me too.

[cold_reality]

Tech devices that are supposed to make life easier actually put more pressure on us. The price of failure is greater and the reward for succeeding is diminished, after all, when succeeding is not only seen as desireable but normal; people will start to wonder if there is some thing wrong with themselves.

I do not know what is worse. For the adult population to live in that kind of a world. Or the fear of the younger generation, knowing that they will one day enter such a world.

[wdlove]

According to the type of suicide that is chosen the process can be very painful.

[Hawkeye_a]

From a chapter i read just yesterday....(Angels&Demons by Dan Brown, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
"Whosi this God cience ? who is the God who offers his people power but no moral framework to tell you how to use that power ? what kind of God Gives a child fire but does not warn the child of it's dangers ? The language of science comes with no signposts about good and bad. Science Textbooks tell us how to create a nuclear reaction, and yet they contain no chapter asking us if it is a good or bad idea."

I'm not a conservative or a religious person by any measure. I'll admit i am a Catholic(and proud to be one). But i think when people abandon any spiritual accountability that things start going wrong.... examples...
-suicide
-murder
-weapons
-teen pregnancies
-abortions,etc....

it's kinda scary to see this sort of thing reach this level in society today. Might just 'appear' so much more cause of the increased populations.

But i think ...working in cubicles, driving efficient cars on highways, cooking in microwaves, communicating on phones and computers, watching television for entertainment, eating genetically modified foods, working out in a gym, etc... have all made 'life' in general rather 'poor'... i probably sound like a hippie/conservative (if one exists ).

But notice how.... people used to work outdoors(farms), ride horses, cook over fire, communicate person to person or with handwritten messages, watch theater or concerts(live performances), eat organic natural foods, exercise ?...did they 'need it' ?

Lately (over the past year or so)...ive tried to unplug and unwire as much as i can. I spend a lot less time indoors away from technology...just at the beach usually..... and its been awesome. I highly recommend it to anyone....cause hehe.... if your trying to find anything substantial on your TV or computer screen or on your radio or in your cubcle at work or in your fancy car or your wallet.....i doubt your gonna find what your looking for.

Cheers

[ender2002]

Originally posted by Nicko:


I really miss that show.

two words:

[adult swim]

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
From a chapter i read just yesterday....(Angels&Demons by Dan Brown, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
"Whosi this God cience ? who is the God who offers his people power but no moral framework to tell you how to use that power ? what kind of God Gives a child fire but does not warn the child of it's dangers ? The language of science comes with no signposts about good and bad. Science Textbooks tell us how to create a nuclear reaction, and yet they contain no chapter asking us if it is a good or bad idea."

I'm not a conservative or a religious person by any measure. I'll admit i am a Catholic(and proud to be one). But i think when people abandon any spiritual accountability that things start going wrong.... examples...
-suicide
-murder
-weapons
-teen pregnancies
-abortions,etc....

it's kinda scary to see this sort of thing reach this level in society today. Might just 'appear' so much more cause of the increased populations.

But i think ...working in cubicles, driving efficient cars on highways, cooking in microwaves, communicating on phones and computers, watching television for entertainment, eating genetically modified foods, working out in a gym, etc... have all made 'life' in general rather 'poor'... i probably sound like a hippie/conservative (if one exists ).

But notice how.... people used to work outdoors(farms), ride horses, cook over fire, communicate person to person or with handwritten messages, watch theater or concerts(live performances), eat organic natural foods, exercise ?...did they 'need it' ?

Lately (over the past year or so)...ive tried to unplug and unwire as much as i can. I spend a lot less time indoors away from technology...just at the beach usually..... and its been awesome. I highly recommend it to anyone....cause hehe.... if your trying to find anything substantial on your TV or computer screen or on your radio or in your cubcle at work or in your fancy car or your wallet.....i doubt your gonna find what your looking for.

Cheers

Wait, lets frame this properly. There's a great divide from the lack of morals in society and the various advantages you list.

The food we eat, our transportation, technology, etc have not changed that much. These things are only advances like wagons instead of walking, working in cubicles etc. For instance farming took a lot of time. There was precious little free time for doing things with the family other than work.

Now those things have nothing to do with our complete lack of morals in society. The problem is that once you remove the yoke (religion/whatever) eventually the morals that have been imprinted will fade. You see a small number do not need the yoke, they know why they should stick to their morals and they do. The larger portion will keep the moral system going (after its removed) and pass it on to the next generation in a weaker form. And finally the kids who grow up revolting from those morals and teaching the next generation none of the morals. So its not that everyone is willing to rob a bank but in grayer more subtle areas. For instance "fornication". Without the moral counter-weight we get teen pregnancies. Without the moral counter-weight the fathers of those kids run off, leaving the mother on her own. Without the moral counter-weight she aborts the baby because she feels she has to support.

Now there is another side to this. The religion that enforces those morals is also necessarily cruel/ and or limiting. For instance the Jews used to use capital punishment for the smallest offenses. Same with Islam. The amish and such threaten to cut you off from what has become your world. Now christianity uses a more subtle system, but it is unable to force morals into society. Its entirely voluntary.

Oh yes, and about farming and what most people think of as the "golden" age for its simplicity. Farming is not a good thing by any means. Farming is expansionistic and exploitational. A farmer clears land, make his living there. He needs lots of land. He also has a lot of children to work that land. Once his children are adults they have the knowledge set to become farmers, so they go off. More land is cleared, population explodes, and so it goes. This was one of the interesting things about Russia's expansion into the north: there were NO farmers. The people that were native to that area lived with the land. They were in perfect harmony with life.

[Hawkeye_a]

Well.... i think the 'advances' or evolutions of the 'process' such as transprtation,etc. Have had overall kinda negative imacts on all of us. True...there is the convenience factor. but what about pollution ? how does that effect the other things in our eco system ?

Cubicles ?... efficient yes...higher profits , yes. How does that effect physical health ? eye sight ? social anxiety ? depression ? Bear in mind that these are the only side effects that apply to human beings...

Plastic is a great 'technology' as well.... now look at the long term effects of it. would it be worth it ? It seems as though our entire existence revolves around higher efficiency and higher profits...whether it be a faster car, a microwave or wepons for easily invading an enemy to get their resources. Maybe the creators of those inventions.... never stopped to consider the 'morality' or 'ethical issues' that could arise.....maybe cause they were a little too narrow minded...i dont know.

It just seems as though....spiritualiuty (whatever that may mean in whatever faith you practice) seems to have taken a back seat, which is probably why there seems to be so many suicides and anti-depressants on market shelves.

As far as farming, i really havent thought a whole lot about it...clearing land to cultive crops or to heard animals..... kinda seems better than clearing land to construct office blocks or parking lots. just my opinion though.

P.S.>> maybe the lack of spiritual awarness....or morality(due to lack of religion) causes people to make stuff and do things that have more seveire implications down the line ? just a thought.

[scaught]

Originally posted by JohnnyAppleseed:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/041012/w101202.html

Suicide is Painless

Through early morning fog I see,
Visions of the things to be,
The pains that are withheld for me,
I realize and I can see...

That suicide is painless.

It brings on many changes.

And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make,
All our little joys relate,
Without that ever-present hate,
But now I know that it's too late, and...


The game of life is hard to play,
I'm gonna lose it anyway.
The losing card I'll someday lay,
So this is all I have to say.


The only way to win is cheat,
And lay it down before I'm beat,
And to another give my seat,
For that's the only painless feat.


The sword of time will pierce our skins.
It doesn't hurt when it begins.
But as it works its way on in,
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...


A brave man once requested me,
to answer questions that are key.
Is it to be or not to be?
And I replied 'Oh why ask me?'


'Cause suicide is painless.

It brings on many changes.

And I can take or leave it if I please.

...And you can do the same thing if you choose.

i remember the first time i heard the song with the words. the music alone is sorta mellow. the lyrics are just...wow.

[ambush]

capitalism making many victims. not only in Iraq (in Iraq it's called imperalism, the supreme state of capitalism Lenin said)

[MilkmanDan]

You do realize that even in so called 'ideal' religious settings, all the bad things mentioned above in previous posts still happen.

Shoot. No wonder even religious people are short on faith these days with all the abuse and scandals that happen in the church. Or at least, these things are now out in the open. I mean, no one has ever been able to create a ideal religious society. People are people. No amount of religion has ever been able to curb human nature. It only makes our own inherent nature 'not moral.'

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by MilkmanDan:
You do realize that even in so called 'ideal' religious settings, all the bad things mentioned above in previous posts still happen.

Shoot. No wonder even religious people are short on faith these days with all the abuse and scandals that happen in the church. Or at least, these things are now out in the open. I mean, no one has ever been able to create a ideal religious society. People are people. No amount of religion has ever been able to curb human nature. It only makes our own inherent nature 'not moral.'

Ideal religious society? There have been many.

Keep in mind that the "church" and religion are two very different things.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
Wait, lets frame this properly. There's a great divide from the lack of morals in society and the various advantages you list.

I'm not entirely sure of that. I don't think that our advances had to produce the moral decay that they have, but that they have in fact done so, more because the forces causing moral decay attached themselves to these advances rather than any inherent "evil" in the advances themselves.

The food we eat, our transportation, technology, etc have not changed that much. These things are only advances like wagons instead of walking, working in cubicles etc.

The food we eat hasn't changed too much: what's changed is how it is prepared. If you really think that our transportation and technology haven't changed much, however, then I am forced to question your sanity. Even in the past 100 years our technology has changed radically; go back 150 years, and it becomes difficult to recognize civilization as such.

For instance farming took a lot of time. There was precious little free time for doing things with the family other than work.

I think that's the real problem with society: our technological advances have been abused in such a way that they have taken two very important things away from us: our sense of time, and our sense of causality.

The screwed-up sense of time can, I believe, be best symbolized by the microwave oven. You note that "farming took a lot of time": I agree with everything here but your verb tense. Farming still takes a lot of time, but only the farmers truly appreciate this nowadays. Even preparing food normally takes time, but only people who actually cook often can appreciate that. The rest of us have become so isolated from the process of preparing food to be eaten that we expect it all to come in nice pre-packaged containers and be done in a matter of minutes. Don't get me wrong; I'm as guilty of this as anybody else. The only difference is that I recognize this flaw, and I'm trying to correct it in myself.

But the preparation of food is one of the most basic things that all people (indeed, all animals) share. If our sense of time concerning this is screwed up, then it follows naturally that our sense of time concerning other things will be screwed up. Nowadays, we think nothing of travelling thousands of miles in a matter of hours, when even a hundred years ago many people didn't travel even a thousand miles in their whole lives. We expect everything to come quickly and relatively easily. Most environmentalists are really just closet terraformers; rather than allowing things to happen on nature's geologice time scale (which can span hundreds or even thousands of years) they want to see results in their own lifetimes. Many people see Iraq as a "quagmire" because it's not completely up and running again, despite the fact that it hasn't even been two years since Saddam's overthrow; most nations weren't at even Iraq's current stage of development five or sometimes even ten years after their actual founding (or re-founding, in some cases).

I'll leave the discussion of our warped sense of causality for another post. The warped sense of time will spawn plenty of discussion on its own.

Yes, I realize I'm attacking a lot of traditionally-liberal viewpoints here. I suppose that's somewhat unavoidable; liberals are products of their own time periods by definition. In a generation or two, these will probably be conservative viewpoints, and my own viewpoint will be considered outright reactionary.

Oh yes, and about farming and what most people think of as the "golden" age for its simplicity. Farming is not a good thing by any means. Farming is expansionistic and exploitational. A farmer clears land, make his living there. He needs lots of land.

Are you talking about farming or agribusiness? An individual farmer needs surprisingly little land, if the land is fertile enough. Agribusiness is another issue altogether.

He also has a lot of children to work that land.

Either that, or he must employ people to do so.

This was one of the interesting things about Russia's expansion into the north: there were NO farmers. The people that were native to that area lived with the land. They were in perfect harmony with life.

You're over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer model of society. "Perfect harmony with life"? Perhaps. But in modern terms the cost was absolutely astounding. A hunter-gatherer system cannot sustain a society much more advanced than the Stone Age, if it can even go that far, simply because of the inefficiency of that model. Everyone has to be involved in hunting or gathering if there is to be enough food, leaving no one free to do anything else. Even the ancient Mesopotamians -considered by many to be the first modern civilization- had to advance further than this, into an agrarian system. It was the only way to free people up to do something other than food-making.

Are you really advocating a return to a hunter-gatherer society?

[Hawkeye_a]

Your statements on time are what made sence to me. And i think ive only just realized that in my own life. Commuting from home to work, or making myself a microwave dinner or scouring the internet for information. Its become painfully easy.... and i think part of 'appreciating' your work, is having to actually work for it. Its in the journey eh ? not the destination....we've all heard that one.

When i commute, i goto the window seat or always lust look out. I find time to take walks or just spend a day at the beach and really appreciate nature (yeah i know i sound liek a tree-lovin-hippie ). What really makes me sad is when i get to the beach or at a park, and i see adolecents and adults punching away SMSs on their little cell phones. Heck even walking from home to class people cant seem to get their eyes off those things and look around.

Maybe it'd the fact that its become so easy that ppl dont really appreciate those 'tasks' that make up life....probably a reson for suicide eh ?

It's like....if you give a child chocolate/candy everyday...soon, it just wont taste as good as it at first.

Oh a positive note....this dude came upto me and my bud at the beach a couple of months ago, and just gave my friend a surf board...it had all his art work on it as well...and at the bottom in tiny handwriting was writte...

"The secret to life is to endure."

Kinda cheesy....but resonated quite well with me.

Cheers

[phoenixboy70]

i dunno, it just seems really different to me. since i HATE talking on the phone, i actually welcome the advent of email, text-messages and chat clients like icq, adium etc. for me, it expands my horizons and isn't a "substitute" for real interaction. quite the opposite, i enjoy being among people, going out, partying etc.

as for the whole suicide/fragmentation of society deal, - here's a wake-up call: humans have always been immoral and done stupid things. the only difference is that this kind of behavior used to be the "privilege" of the upper class, and those "educated enough" to not believe in the tooth-fairy, or the "boogey man".

sorry to say this, but the "cat's outta the sack" and no amount of preaching, lying and literalist idiocy will ever get (most) people to be docile again. (though the whole deal about "new-age" and "mysticism" is certainly an expression of the need for some kind of "order")

Hawkeye_a had some really cool comments about this. it's the small things that make life really worth it, IMHO. things you can discover for yourself...(yes, cheesball...oh, well).

meh.

/can i have a window-seat in the hand-basket?

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I'm not entirely sure of that. I don't think that our advances had to produce the moral decay that they have, but that they have in fact done so, more because the forces causing moral decay attached themselves to these advances rather than any inherent "evil" in the advances themselves.

No argument there.

The food we eat hasn't changed too much: what's changed is how it is prepared. If you really think that our transportation and technology haven't changed much, however, then I am forced to question your sanity. Even in the past 100 years our technology has changed radically; go back 150 years, and it becomes difficult to recognize civilization as such.

I think that's the real problem with society: our technological advances have been abused in such a way that they have taken two very important things away from us: our sense of time, and our sense of causality.


Of course our transportation system has changed. Saying that those changes have contributed towards making a society where suicide/etc is rampant is quite another thing.

True, advances like air travel, email, fax machines even phones have slowly taken away people's perspective. We feel isolated despite having global communication systems. We feel rushed even though we have more free time than we have ever had before. Still all this does not have a direct relation to moral values.

The screwed-up sense of time can, I believe, be best symbolized by the microwave oven. You note that "farming took a lot of time": I agree with everything here but your verb tense. Farming still takes a lot of time, but only the farmers truly appreciate this nowadays. Even preparing food normally takes time, but only people who actually cook often can appreciate that. The rest of us have become so isolated from the process of preparing food to be eaten that we expect it all to come in nice pre-packaged containers and be done in a matter of minutes. Don't get me wrong; I'm as guilty of this as anybody else. The only difference is that I recognize this flaw, and I'm trying to correct it in myself.

But the preparation of food is one of the most basic things that all people (indeed, all animals) share. If our sense of time concerning this is screwed up, then it follows naturally that our sense of time concerning other things will be screwed up. Nowadays, we think nothing of travelling thousands of miles in a matter of hours, when even a hundred years ago many people didn't travel even a thousand miles in their whole lives. We expect everything to come quickly and relatively easily. Most environmentalists are really just closet terraformers; rather than allowing things to happen on nature's geologice time scale (which can span hundreds or even thousands of years) they want to see results in their own lifetimes. Many people see Iraq as a "quagmire" because it's not completely up and running again, despite the fact that it hasn't even been two years since Saddam's overthrow; most nations weren't at even Iraq's current stage of development five or sometimes even ten years after their actual founding (or re-founding, in some cases).

I'll leave the discussion of our warped sense of causality for another post. The warped sense of time will spawn plenty of discussion on its own.

Are you talking about farming or agribusiness? An individual farmer needs surprisingly little land, if the land is fertile enough. Agribusiness is another issue altogether.

Farming causes population to grow, towns to spring up, general expansion of society into new geographical areas. Agribusiness is a result of greater demand from those expansions.

Either that, or he must employ people to do so.

If he can.

You're over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer model of society. "Perfect harmony with life"? Perhaps. But in modern terms the cost was absolutely astounding. A hunter-gatherer system cannot sustain a society much more advanced than the Stone Age, if it can even go that far, simply because of the inefficiency of that model. Everyone has to be involved in hunting or gathering if there is to be enough food, leaving no one free to do anything else. Even the ancient Mesopotamians -considered by many to be the first modern civilization- had to advance further than this, into an agrarian system. It was the only way to free people up to do something other than food-making.

Are you really advocating a return to a hunter-gatherer society?

Of course a hunter-gatherer society doesn't work in modern terms. I should have explained that that is exactly what russia did: they turned the society into a modern food production business. I am not advocating a hunter-gatherer society, I am saying that on its own terms it is a viable model. I was also trying to show why we cannot go back or pretend that technology does not exist.

None of this has any real relation ship to the moral decay in society though. No doubt it is one of the factors that pushed us in this direction.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by ender2002:
two words:

[adult swim]

Three letters: DVD.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
As wacky as this seems, you're putting too much faith that a Judeo-Christian god exists.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Well He's done a whole lot more for me than you have

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Well He's done a whole lot more for me than you have

[olePigeon]

There's a line of paternity cloths by "Missy" for pregnant teens. Sigh.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
There's a line of paternity cloths by "Missy" for pregnant teens. Sigh.

maternity clothes?

[andi*pandi]

The japanese... always ahead of the curve.

and in keeping with theme:

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

--Dorothy Parker

[Hawkeye_a]

Just heard the most bizarre thing from one of my professors in class yesterday.

Apparently the people who are obsessed with Everquest buy and sell imaginary lives/stuff for real money. Bizarre..

And according to my professor, in Japan you can buy an imaginary girlfriend who you communicate with using SMS. Then...you buy the imaginary girl imaginary stuff (gifts) with real money, and more stuff you buy her the faster you....'score' (whatever that means).

That’s the hight of depression imo.... pathetic. Words fail me.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
Apparently the people who are obsessed with Everquest buy and sell imaginary lives/stuff for real money. Bizarre..

The Everquest world has an economy stronger than Russia.