[TETENAL]

http://www.ftd.de/tm/it/1097912326604.html?nv=hptn

Deutsche Telekom announced that its musicload.de music download service pushed iTunes Music Store to the second place in sales rank in Germany. Musicload is selling 250.000 songs per month.

Deutsche Telekom is also planning to release its own mp3 player to compete with the Apple iPod.

"We would prefer over an own device if Apple would license their music format and we could sell music for the iPod." said Deutsche Telekom manager Großmann.

[drive-thru]

Edit: I misread the last sentence so my post didn't make any sense.
I thought they wanted to just sell Apple DRM music, not their own mp3 player as well.

[theolein]

German buying patterns tend to be different to that of other countries. What a surprise. Aldi is also popular there.

Apart from that, German computing behaviour can sometimes be incredibly weird. I don't know how many times I've popped off a quick email to some or other TV channel when they had yet another programme kissing Microsoft's arse, informing them that there are other options such as Linux or Mac/OSX, only to get a reply that the marketshare of Linux/OSX is too small to justify nicluding them in their programmes.

Christ, on a Sat1 late night PC programme, they even had a so called shootout between 3 video editing software packages. Here the dumb arseholes inclused Final Cut Pro on OSX with Premiere and some other piece of sh¡t on WinXP. Unsurprisingly, the mindless pretty young thing that had never used a Mac before or edited a video found Premiere the easiest because "the cursor looks like like a razor blade" when editing.

<cue rolleyes smiley here>

The laugh starts when D-T launches musicload internationally and finds that no one's interested, leaving the Telekom bosses scratching their heads why that is so.

[Twilly Spree]

People sure ain't playing the music they buy from Deutche Telekom on their iPods.

[badidea]

Originally posted by theolein:
German buying patterns tend to be different to that of other countries. What a surprise. Aldi is also popular there.

...

Do you want to tell me that Aldi is bad??

By the way, Aussies and US boys (and girls), how do you guys like Aldi?

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by theolein:
German buying patterns tend to be different to that of other countries. What a surprise.

The iPod and the iTMS have been very well received by the media. They got a lot of free press when iTMS started. And what did Apple do? Nothing! I have yet to see a single TV ad for the iPod or the iTMS. You see musicload.de ads on TV all the time. No wonder they lost market leadership. They frittered it away!

Apart from that, German computing behaviour can sometimes be incredibly weird.

And this is no ones fault but Apple's.

When I wanted to purchase my first Mac the local Apple dealer (in pinstripes!) outright told me "you can not afford a Mac!" He gave me a photocopied tech spec sheet of the 6100 <b>in the door</b>! He didn't even let me in. Seldom in my live have I met something so arrogant.

Rightfully that dealer went out of business in the Amelio years, but that leaves Apple to
– almost no local dealers
- no shops of their own
- none of their products in the retail chains MediaMarkt, Saturn etc.
- no tv advertisement
- almost no print advertisement

And you blame the Germans? I would say it's pretty amazing that Apple is selling something in Germany at all!

[gerbnl]

Originally posted by badidea:
Do you want to tell me that Aldi is bad??

By the way, Aussies and US boys (and girls), how do you guys like Aldi?

The Aldi concept is quite attractive and has some good sensible points to it, however the concept is unfortunately extended to personel/human management.

I pity everybody that has the misfortune to [have to] work for Aldi...

[badidea]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
...
- none of their products in the retail chains MediaMarkt, Saturn etc.
...
- almost no print advertisement
...

Saturn in Hamburg does sell Apple stuff!!

No print advertisement???? What kind of magazines do you read?? iPod and iMac advertisment is everywhere!

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
People sure ain't playing the music they buy from Deutche Telekom on their iPods.

Sure they don't. Apple doesn't let them.

You underestimate the position of Deutsche Telekom in Germany a little bit. They provide almost 100% of the private phone lines. They provide maybe 80% of the internet access. They have means to push their download service. They also do tv advertisement. If people can't use the iPod with music they purchased from Telekom then they are not buying the iPod.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by theolein:
German buying patterns tend to be different to that of other countries. What a surprise. Aldi is also popular there.

...

Hey, we're not the only one with Aldis. In the middle of nowhere in Kansas, I saw an Aldi, too (no kidding!)

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by badidea:
Saturn in Hamburg does sell Apple stuff!!

No print advertisement???? What kind of magazines do you read?? iPod and iMac advertisment is everywhere!

Yeah, but those guys usually advise against it.
When the 2nd gen iPod came out, a friend of my brother was interested in buying one. The guy in Saturn said it's Mac-only (which was BS even back then).

Oh I hate this shop. Last time I went there was to check out printers with my ex gf. It's really hard to believe that some women rather trust a salesguy reading the specs off the box than their loved one

[badidea]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Yeah, but those guys usually advise against it.
When the 2nd gen iPod came out, a friend of my brother was interested in buying one. The guy in Saturn said it's Mac-only (which was BS even back then).

Oh I hate this shop. Last time I went there was to check out printers with my ex gf. It's really hard to believe that some women rather trust a salesguy reading the specs off the box than their loved one

Oh, I didn't know that there are actually people working at Saturn who you can ask something - everytime I was looking for someone, they were hiding somewhere!

[turtle777]

I would be surprised if the Deutsche Telekom really gets a good system out and running. Although they are somewhat an IT market leader, they are somewhat the M$ of the German telecommunication market.

Those who have clue about computers, internet etc. try stay away from the "DTAG" as much as possible.

-t

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by turtle777:
I would be surprised if the Deutsche Telekom really gets a good system out and running.

I think it's exactly this kind of blind arrogance why Apple has thrown away music downloads market leadership in Germany. Telekom's system works good enough already to sell more songs than Apple does.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
I think it's exactly this kind of blind arrogance why Apple has thrown away music downloads market leadership in Germany. Telekom's system works good enough already to sell more songs than Apple does.

Don't think that Germany's market is representative for the whole world. Germany's "Geiz ist geil" mentality you'll find nowhere else in that extreme.

In many aspects , German consumers are very dumb. Many would drive 50 km and spend 2 hours in traffic just to get a CD 50 cents cheaper

-t

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Sure they don't. Apple doesn't let them.

You underestimate the position of Deutsche Telekom in Germany a little bit. They provide almost 100% of the private phone lines. They provide maybe 80% of the internet access. They have means to push their download service. They also do tv advertisement. If people can't use the iPod with music they purchased from Telekom then they are not buying the iPod.

Apple provides nearly 90% of all hard drive based mp3 players. So we have a bunch of germans playing their Deutche Telekom music on their computers or 128 MB flash players.

[gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Apple provides nearly 90% of all hard drive based mp3 players.

in the United States.

[drive-thru]

Originally posted by turtle777:
...they are somewhat the M$ of the German telecommunication market.

Those who have clue about computers, internet etc. try stay away from the "DTAG" as much as possible.

-t

It's the same for MS. But that's why Apple only has a 5% market share.
An online music store which is better than everyone elses, but only known and appreciated by geeks, will never make a market leader.
However, if you make a crappy online music store (or OS for that matter), give people a choice of what hardware they can use with it and advertise a lot, you may find yourself with a very large market share.

I remember when I first took my iBook to college and people asked me (and these were serious questions too): "Can it go on the internet?"; "Can it use jpegs?"; "Can it use mp3s?"; "Does it run programs like Photoshop?". This was at a design college and all these people owned their own computers and were experienced with them. One person even told me (after I told him it was running OS X) "If you were serious about computers you would run something based on a stable OS - like UNIX...or DOS."
My point is that because Apple doesn't advertise much in the UK, and doesn't have a high profile at all over here, people don't have a clue about macs. Even people at design college! Macs may be better, people who have a clue about them may prefer to use them, but that doesn't mean squat when it comes to market share.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by gatekeeper:
in the United States.

ok what is the percentage in germany?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by badidea:
Saturn in Hamburg does sell Apple stuff!!

No print advertisement???? What kind of magazines do you read?? iPod and iMac advertisment is everywhere!

He said no TV advertisements.

And yes, Saturn does sell Apple stuff - it's usually one generation outdated, at slightly above previous list price, and good luck finding a single salesman prepared to sell it to you.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Yeah, but those guys usually advise against it.
When the 2nd gen iPod came out, a friend of my brother was interested in buying one. The guy in Saturn said it's Mac-only (which was BS even back then).

Oh I hate this shop. Last time I went there was to check out printers with my ex gf. It's really hard to believe that some women rather trust a salesguy reading the specs off the box than their loved one

One thing you have to know about Saturn (and Mediamarkt, and a bunch of other chains that belong to Metro) is that they aren't actually selling you anything, because they don't actually stock up on products on their own.

They are merely the real-estate-provider. If you, as a manufacturer, wish to sell through Saturn, you RENT floorspace and warehouse stocking space, and if you want somebody to actually promote and sell your stuff, you pay for them yourself.

Seemingly small, but vital factor. If you remember that Saturn is actually just a real-estate business (sort of like a miniature shopping mall), then it all makes sense.

-s*

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by turtle777:
Don't think that Germany's market is representative for the whole world.

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Apple provides nearly 90% of all hard drive based mp3 players. So we have a bunch of germans playing their Deutche Telekom music on their computers or 128 MB flash players.

I didn't say it's representative for the whole world. However, Germany is the second largest music market in the world. Se we're more than "a bunch".

[TheJoshu]

Do both stores stock the same artists?

[theolein]

Originally posted by turtle777:
Don't think that Germany's market is representative for the whole world. Germany's "Geiz ist geil" mentality you'll find nowhere else in that extreme.

In many aspects , German consumers are very dumb. Many would drive 50 km and spend 2 hours in traffic just to get a CD 50 cents cheaper

-t

This is what I was refering to in my post. Germans are supposed to be a nation of DIY'ers, savers and bargan hunters, and sometimes, when I look at the cheap sh¡t programmes on RTLII, where people haggle over the last 50cents after having spent two hours looking for an item, or spend five hours fixing their own car in a workshop and then paying for someone to supervise them, then I think it's true.

This DIY mentality brings you pluses and minuses, I think. On the one hand you get tech magazines like c't and its sister iX, which must rate amongst the very best computing magazines in the world, but on the other it brings you the Aldi computer and Mediamarkt salespeople (the last being a bit of an oxymoron because they don't actually seem to like talking to customers) and the legions of people that will buy cheap PC crap and nameless M$ software because they think it's cheap.

The fact that the German economy is in the crapper and 4 and a half million unemployed doesn't exactly help either though.

Still, if you want to do something about it, write to Apple, both in the US and Germany and make a big noise about how bad their advertising, sales presence etc is. Tell them you'll get Der Spiegel to do an exclusive of Apple's bad situation in Germany. The threat of bad PR always seems to shake companies up.

Here in Switzerland, the situation is quite different. The Apple retailers are still pretty useless, but Apple, the new Mac and OSX have a fantatsic reputation, and they sell like hotcakes, and there is both advertising on TV and in print. And we don't even have an iTMS here.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
... So we have a bunch of germans playing their Deutche Telekom music on their computers or 128 MB flash players.

numbnut ... Germany's the 5th largest music market on the planet. Jeebus, at least do a tiny bit of reading before you post crap like that ...




Just to put this into perspective ... yearly sales (2003):

Apple: $ 8.279 bn
Telekom: $ 70.2 bn ( approx. 40% of which are generated outside of Germany)

I have no love for the Deutsche Telekom but compared to them, Apple is merely a speck of fly shit on a map ...

(edit: added some info)

[badidea]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
He said no TV advertisements.

That's not your style! USUALLY YOU CAN READ!

[effgee]

Originally posted by turtle777:
... Germany's "Geiz ist geil" mentality you'll find nowhere else in that extreme. ...

Yeah ... that's exactly the reason why 1/4 of the Sunday paper is made up of clip-out coupons ... oh wait ... no ...that was someplace else. But this one ... that is why there's that "econo-size" isle in nearly every supermarket where people buy 5-gallon jugs of mayonnaise and 200-pound bags of cat litter in order to save 3 cents on the gallon/pound ... ah crap, that wasn't in Germany either ... uhm, nevermind

[turtle777]

Originally posted by effgee:
Yeah ... that's exactly the reason why 1/4 of the Sunday paper is made up of clip-out coupons ... oh wait ... no ...that was someplace else. But this one ... that is why there's that "econo-size" isle in nearly every supermarket where people buy 5-gallon jugs of mayonnaise and 200-pound bags of cat litter in order to save 3 cents on the gallon/pound ... ah crap, that wasn't in Germany either ... uhm, nevermind

Pfff. I had to survive Germany, now I struggle with the US.
Same sh!t on both sides

-t

[effgee]

Originally posted by turtle777:
... Same sh!t on both sides ...

right you are!

[turtle777]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
http://www.ftd.de/tm/it/1097912326604.html?nv=hptn

Deutsche Telekom announced that its musicload.de music download service pushed iTunes Music Store to the second place in sales rank in Germany. Musicload is selling 250.000 songs per month.

I just read the article.

The claim to be #1 is bullcrap.
There are no facts behind this number, only the word of the CEO, Grassmann.

"nach Einschätzung von Graßmann..."
Translated: "according to an estimation by Grassmann..."



-t

[effgee]

Yup, an "estimation", read it, too ... and anyone who's ever tried to get an estimate on anything from the Telekom folks will know exactly just how much that is worth ...

[turtle777]

Originally posted by effgee:
Yup, an "estimation", read it, too ... and anyone who's ever tried to get an estimate on anything from the Telekom folks will know exactly just how much that is worth ...

That's right.
That announcement is not even worth the paper it was written on...

-t

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by theolein:
German buying patterns tend to be different to that of other countries.

You can say that again. I will never understand why Germans like David Hasselhoff so much.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
You can say that again. I will never understand why Germans like David Hasselhoff so much.

Because he is SO American

-t

[ironknee]

The Germans love David Hasselhoff.

[theolein]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
You can say that again. I will never understand why Germans like David Hasselhoff so much.

Actually, they don't. It's only Americans who think that Germans like David Hasselhof so much. It's what one calls a national stereotype.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by theolein:
Actually, they don't. It's only Americans who think that Germans like David Hasselhof so much. It's what one calls a national stereotype.

Actually, a lot DID.

But that ebbed off after Baywatch.

[TETENAL]

.

[theolein]

Am I supposed to go on the defensive now? The first one is taken from RTLII. Watch it on any week night, and you'll know what I mean. The second one has nothing to do with national stereotypes, but does have a lot to do with a crook trying to rip people off by selling them repackaged GPL software.

But you're right, I suppose I do have national stereotypes. Having actually lived in Germany and having seen this exact behaviour by some stingy wanker husband of a friend of my sister's we visited in march this year only enforces that in me, sadly.

[TETENAL]

Yes, Germans can be odd sometimes.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
You can say that again. I will never understand why Germans like David Hasselhoff so much.

I should point out that he gained massive fame in the US by starring in several US TV shows. Thus, if anything, it's the US that loves David Hasselhoff the most.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Actually, a lot DID.

But that ebbed off after Baywatch.

We should rename this thread in

David Hasselhoff no longer market leader in Germany



-t

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by theolein:
Actually, they don't. It's only Americans who think that Germans like David Hasselhof so much. It's what one calls a national stereotype.

A friend of mine was in Germany all of last year, he said that Germans he spoke with were incredibly surprised (to the point of disbelief!) that David Hasselhoff (as a singer) was not popular in the U.S. of A.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I should point out that he gained massive fame in the US by starring in several US TV shows. Thus, if anything, it's the US that loves David Hasselhoff the most.

The U.S. used to, back when he was a regularly televised actor (with new episodes, anyway). The U.S. never took much of a liking for his music, though. Germany, on the other hand...

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
The U.S. never took much of a liking for his music, though. Germany, on the other hand...

Yeah, it's a shameful part of our history.

But we were young, only looking for freedom...

-t

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
A friend of mine was in Germany all of last year, he said that Germans he spoke with were incredibly surprised (to the point of disbelief!) that David Hasselhoff (as a singer) was not popular in the U.S. of A.

Hmmm... A German friend of mine said most Germans didn't like David Hasselhoff (as a singer), and wondered why Americans thought Germans did.

[TETENAL]

You can make another thread about Hasslehoff if you want, but stop the off topic posting here.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
You can make another thread about Hasslehoff if you want, but stop the off topic posting here.

Why ?

The original issue is solved: DTAG made (once again) one of their famous statements that's not worth the time and paper used for it. That's it.

So let's get to the real important things, David Hasselhoff.

-t

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
You can make another thread about Hasslehoff if you want, but stop the off topic posting here.

Let's see…

iTunes Music Store…Germany…David Hasslehoff is a popular singer in Germany…

I see a connection.

Maybe iTunes isn't doing well in Germany because they don't sell David Hasslehoff's music?

[turtle777]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
Maybe iTunes isn't doing well in Germany because they don't sell David Hasslehoff's music?

Now we're getting into speculation, my friend.

-t