[V12]

Lately i've been looking to get a into photography. I've always been one to take a camera with me and take picture of landscapes and such, and i can't live without my camera phone(love having a camera a flip away), however it is more than obvious that a camera phone has horrible resoultuion and a my Sony P71 (going on 4 years old now?) is either hit or miss(pics either are good or bad, and the lighting settings are horrible, it is also really bad at take pictures inside when not using flash and there is already enought light.

so i want to get a nice camera first of all. I am looking at the canon EOS Digital Rebel w/ 18-55mm lens. i will also be looking into taking classes (althogh i may wait until i am in College to do so)


i am looking to get digital so i can get the pics up on my computer, i don't have the time, or space to process it myself.

if you can reconmend any cameras, software, and books that i can get some tips from it would be greatly appreichated.

as for cameras i am mostly interested in canon, and possibly minolta.


thanks

[MacMan4000]

stay away from minolta. They used to be good, back in the days of film, but now thay are made in over 5 countries to keep it cheep, and they are very cheep quality. they break in now time. canon is good, so is nikon.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by MacMan4000:
stay away from minolta. They used to be good, back in the days of film, but now thay are made in over 5 countries to keep it cheep, and they are very cheep quality. they break in now time. canon is good, so is nikon.

********, The Minolta Dynax 7 is seen as one of the best film cameras in the world. IMHO Minolta still has the best light metering there is. And EVERY bloody electronic device you own is made in 5 different countries. Every camera is good, it comes down to personal preference and especially the glass. I for one, can't stand the yellowish Canon glass.

To the original poster: for classes they'll probably want you to own a film based camera. Get yourself a cheap film camera with fixed lenses (no zooms). If you really want digital and want a Canon I would go with a ued 10D. The 300D (or Rebel) is pure plastic and wheighs next to nothing (that's bad for a camera, you need weight to keep it stable). As for software: well Photoshop, what else ?

[mitchell_pgh]

I wouldn't even consider a Minolta. You can't go wrong with Canon at the lower and medium end... if you know what you are buying... Nikon is excellent at the medium to high end.

Price will guide most of your decisions. I would consider the Nikon D70 or Canon EOS 20D.

SPECIAL NOTE: I wouldn't eliminate film cameras from your list. For $500, you can get a good Nikon with a good lens if you hunt around a little. Learn how to take good photos with that camera and when you upgrade to a digital Nikon... you get to keep your lenses (which is usually the most expensive part of buying cameras)

Just my 2¢

[MacMan4000]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
********, The Minolta Dynax 7 is seen as one of the best film cameras in the world.

Says who? I work in a camera store and we stopped selling Minolta a few years back because more than 30% of all the Minolta cameras we sold were coming back defective. We had 3 or 4 of them break while we were demonstrating them to customers!

[V12]

ok, if you guys could post a link to these cameras

also what are the main differences between a film and digital (i know that its digial but say compare it to a EOS rebel)

with the film camera will i be able to get the picture on my computer to edit and such, if so how?

yea i figured photoshop, but will photoshop elemnts compare (just to save a little money), if i only need to do some minor edits that iPhoto just doesn't offer.

thanks

[MacMan4000]

ok, shameless plug. http://www.murphyscamera.com/
I know there isn't much info on each camera there, but if you click the pictures of the cameras most of them are linked to the manufactures site.
(not the pictures on the homepage, the ones in the "digital" section or the "35mm" section.)

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by MacMan4000:
Says who?

A lot of Pro's I know and a lot of Pro magazines and bodies. The Dynax 7 was awarded the TIPA Best SLR Camera 2001-2002 and the EISA European Camera of the Year 2001-2002 in Europe prizes. In Japan, this SLR camera has been selected as the winner of the Camera Grand Prix. And it also won the Australian camera of the year prize. Mind you, this is the 35mm Dynax 7 I'm talking about, not the new Dynax 7 Digital.

[MacMan4000]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
A lot of Pro's I know and a lot of Pro magazines and bodies. The Dynax 7 was awarded the TIPA Best SLR Camera 2001-2002 and the EISA European Camera of the Year 2001-2002 in Europe prizes. In Japan, this SLR camera has been selected as the winner of the Camera Grand Prix. And it also won the Australian camera of the year prize. Mind you, this is the 35mm Dynax 7 I'm talking about, not the new Dynax 7 Digital.

OK, that makes more sense. Sorry for jumping on you like that, its mostly the newer models, and its worse with digital.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by V12:
ok, if you guys could post a link to these cameras

also what are the main differences between a film and digital (i know that its digial but say compare it to a EOS rebel)

with the film camera will i be able to get the picture on my computer to edit and such, if so how?

yea i figured photoshop, but will photoshop elemnts compare (just to save a little money), if i only need to do some minor edits that iPhoto just doesn't offer.

thanks

PS Elements will be fine for basic use. Get that if you don't want to spend too much.

From film to computer --> scanner

About the comparison: what do you mean exactly ? How can you compare one camera model to film ?

The thing is for the price of a low end digital SLR you can get a really high end 35mm SLR second hand. And I would really advise you to buy second hand. Not too much that can go wrong with a film camera.

[ASIMO]

Unless you already have investment in Canon's fine lenses (which does not seem to be the case) and if it is not out of your budget, consider the Nikon D70. Superior to the Rebel both as a standalone body and even better as a kit, as the D70's kit lens is also superior to the Rebel's. The difference in price may be worth it in the long run. If you should wish to stick to Canon, consider the now discounted 10d or its successor, the excellent 20d, though it is substantially more expensive than the Rebel.

I have had the D70 for a few months and I think Eug has the 20d. Eug is a damned good eye and he has the camera to exploit it. So hit him up on some advice, too.

Here are some recent shots I took on a whim a few days ago on a friend's site (he also has a D70): Some shots.

[alligator]

Go with the Rebel. I have it (see my photo in the contest) and just purchased my first telephoto lens. The basic lens it comes with is great - I switch back and forth quite often.

Get a big memory card too.

[V12]

wow those pics are incredible withthe D70(now is that film or digital as i am getting confused anr running in circles from site to site it seems)

i am basically looking to start out, it seems a film camera will be better for me and i'll scan them to my computer (once i scan them i can still put them in iPhoto correct?)


what would be a all around fairly priced camera (i guess the body alone will be good enough for now and i can purchase lens' as i need them--unless a camera comes with one and would end up being cheaper - any of you guys have some newer cameras that you are looking to sell used, if not im sure ill be able to hunt one down for a good price

as for the scanner, do you use a regular scanner, or...
i currently have a all in one printer hooked up to my mac hp1350, im not sure how it is printing and scanning (althought they should already be printed if its film) also i have a hp photosmart 100 printer but i don't believe it has a mac driver (at least i can't find one)

i also have a epson scanner hooked up to my pc, i believe its a perfection 1670

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by MacMan4000:
Says who? I work in a camera store...

hey, if you work in a camera store, i have a quick question. i'm looking for a small, light weight digital camera, which is excellent for taking "snap shots". it's gotta be quick. many digi cams i've tried take up to 5 or 7 seconds...that's way too long afaic.

something in the 3-4 mega pix and $ 300 range. the make is not as important as solid build and "quickness". oh, and it's gotta be easy to use. mac support would be nice too.

thx

[MacMan4000]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
hey, if you work in a camera store, i have a quick question. i'm looking for a small, light weight digital camera, which is excellent for taking "snap shots". it's gotta be quick. many digi cams i've tried take up to 5 or 7 seconds...that's way too long afaic.

something in the 3-4 mega pix and $ 300 range. the make is not as important as solid build and "quickness". oh, and it's gotta be easy to use. mac support would be nice too.

thx

I recommend the Fuji "e" series. They just came out within the past few months. Fuji has a reputation for being easy to use and easy for beginners to learn. These cameras are also pretty quick to take a picture after you press the button (less than a second). They have big 2" screens and a fairly good zoom (3.2x optical, or 4x for the e550. [3x is the standard])

For comparing digital camera I recommend (another shameless plug) checking out our exclusive Digital Camera Comparison Charts

For more info you can go to the Fuji site (mouse over "sophisticated" to see the e series cameras")

[DeathToWindows]

Ok. Advance warning : I have used Nikon, Pentax and Canon… like Nikon and Pentax, think that if you’re spending less than ~$1000 on canon you’re just getting crap… the cameras are too light.

For a course, UNLESS you are going in to photojournalism (at which point the prof will be rather picky about hardware anyway), I'd go for a decent film SLR and a scanner... used full-manual bodies (i.e. Pentax K1000) go with a lens for $100-150... the market has dropped like a stone the last couple years because of digital... so good pro bodies can be obtained cheaply...

If you want a pro setup for little cash... Nikon N90 + 50mm f1.8

http://www.keh.com/shop/SHOWPRODUCT....c=0&dpsp=0 (N90, $190)

http://www.keh.com/shop/SHOWPRODUCT....c=0&dpsp=0 (50mm f1.8, $70)

I had an identical rig for 4 years, loved it... it's got some serious heft to it, the autofocus is good, the metering is good and the controls are nicely intuitive. I've since bought an F4... now that is a great camera, but as a full rig (body + flash + lens) its pretty damn heavy.

That being said, most intro photo courses will want you to buy something like the Pentax K1000 / ZX-M / Nikon FM10... a manual focus, manual meter student body.

Buy used... go local (if there's a good store near you) or on the web from KEH.com

I've been shooting since 1998 and have only bought ONE brand-new camera in that time... although I've owned 4 or 5...

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
Ok. Advance warning : I have used Nikon, Pentax and Canon… like Nikon and Pentax, think that if you’re spending less than ~$1000 on canon you’re just getting crap… the cameras are too light.

For a course, UNLESS you are going in to photojournalism (at which point the prof will be rather picky about hardware anyway), I'd go for a decent film SLR and a scanner... used full-manual bodies (i.e. Pentax K1000) go with a lens for $100-150... the market has dropped like a stone the last couple years because of digital... so good pro bodies can be obtained cheaply...

If you want a pro setup for little cash... Nikon N90 + 50mm f1.8

http://www.keh.com/shop/SHOWPRODUCT....c=0&dpsp=0 (N90, $190)

http://www.keh.com/shop/SHOWPRODUCT....c=0&dpsp=0 (50mm f1.8, $70)

I had an identical rig for 4 years, loved it... it's got some serious heft to it, the autofocus is good, the metering is good and the controls are nicely intuitive. I've since bought an F4... now that is a great camera, but as a full rig (body + flash + lens) its pretty damn heavy.

That being said, most intro photo courses will want you to buy something like the Pentax K1000 / ZX-M / Nikon FM10... a manual focus, manual meter student body.

Buy used... go local (if there's a good store near you) or on the web from KEH.com

I've been shooting since 1998 and have only bought ONE brand-new camera in that time... although I've owned 4 or 5...

Listen to this man, he speaks wisdom.

[V12]

thank you deathtowindows that was very helpful

i'll check around for local places that sell used cameras.

what is ths k1000 you are talking about?

currently i am only a junior in H.S. so i am still a only a short time away from college and i don't believe i will be able to take any courses around here (for some reason i doubt that i will be accepted in any classes - and i don't want to take a teen photography class)

are their any sites or books you can recommend?

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by V12:
thank you deathtowindows that was very helpful

i'll check around for local places that sell used cameras.

what is ths k1000 you are talking about?

currently i am only a junior in H.S. so i am still a only a short time away from college and i don't believe i will be able to take any courses around here (for some reason i doubt that i will be accepted in any classes - and i don't want to take a teen photography class)

are their any sites or books you can recommend?

The Pentax K1000 . Pentax made some beautiful cameras. I have a Pentax SL (think that's the type) lying around somewhere, the camera where it all started with for me. The SL has no built in light meter just a shutter . The good thing about these Pentaxes are: the Takumar lenses, beautiful stuff.


And dood, you live in NYC. There's got to be tons of shops where you can buy second hand cameras.

[MacMan4000]

Originally posted by V12:
thank you deathtowindows that was very helpful

i'll check around for local places that sell used cameras.

what is ths k1000 you are talking about?

currently i am only a junior in H.S. so i am still a only a short time away from college and i don't believe i will be able to take any courses around here (for some reason i doubt that i will be accepted in any classes - and i don't want to take a teen photography class)

are their any sites or books you can recommend?

The Pentax K1000 is a great beginner camera, its rugged and all manual, so you learn how to use a light meter to find the right exposure. Very good for learning, but it is recommended by every photo class teacher on the planet, so finding one is not easy.

edit: if you can't find the K1000 and want something just like it this camera is almost identical, same controls and everything. You could get a owners manual for a K1000 and use it with this camera, thats how identical it is. I know its not a very well know name brand, like Pentax, but it is still a good camera. it takes all Pentax K mount lenses (thats most of em).

[V12]

and what would a pentax k1000 run me new and mint 2nd?

also what are the advantages by starting out with this camera rather than just buying, say a nikon d70 or a cannon 20d

thanks


btw- as for getting the pics on my pbook is a regular flatbed scanner good?

on sort of a off subject i have a hp photosmart 4x6 printer, anyone know how i can get it to work with my mac??

thanks

[MacMan4000]

Originally posted by V12:
and what would a pentax k1000 run me new and mint 2nd?

also what are the advantages by starting out with this camera rather than just buying, say a nikon d70 or a cannon 20d

By getting a K1000 you learn how to do manual settings such as aperture and shutter speed. Once you have mastered these settings you can make some really nifty pictures.

On the other hand, if you are more of a 'put it on "auto" and never change the settings' kinda guy then the D70 or 20D both have full auto modes, go for it.

[V12]

well its not that i dont want to learn its just that i feel that by purchasing a k1000 after a few months with it, i will want something on the more professional side, and in the long run just a economical hold up

macman what would you consider better between the d70 and 20d

also i would like to know if we could talk on iChat, maybe you could pm me your (aim)handle?

[shabbasuraj]

I gotta chime in as another happy D70 user. The camera is simply amazing in regards ot the feature set/price ratio.

I got a pic in the current contest also.

[V12]

looks like i am leaning towards hte d70 so far, what was your expierence with photography before purchasing the d70?

[DeathToWindows]

Ok, the K1000 was Pentax's student camera for about 20 years... say early 80s through 1999... complete tank (VERY well built). With a 50mm lens, it'll run you $100-150.

Since you're in NYC, go to B&H Camera... huge store, fun to look around and BIG used dept

Starting out with film you'll actually learn how to meter and how to properly use lenses... you (unless you have much more money than brains) should NOT start out with low-end pro digital hardware... it's a lot cheaper to get a decent 35mm camera rather than to get a decent DSLR anyway. When you've gotten good at working with a conventional camera, THEN go digital... and take your lenses (If you get a AF nikon/canon/pentax) with you.

If you really, really want to use photoshop, buy a scanner and scan the film you shoot. A really nice film scanner can be had for $200 - the epson 4180. What would you rather spend as a way to get in to serious photo - $500 for the N90 setup and a scanner or $1300 or higher for a D70 or 20D...

if you want to talk at length : macphotogeek on aim

[ASIMO]

Originally posted by V12:
looks like i am leaning towards hte d70 so far, what was your expierence with photography before purchasing the d70?

Have you been here? -- DPReview


I am a pure hobbyist who started in the pre-digital era with an Olympus SLR which survived for more than a decade. I still have a couple of lenses for it. I entered the digital realm in the mid-late nineties with Apple's Quicktake digicam. I still have it -- a relic. A the turn of the faux millennium I got the Canon G1 and then a couple of years later, the G3. When I hit the limits of such "pro-sumer" digital non-SLRs the Digital Rebel appeared on the market and I almost jumped on it. Luckily I had the patience to see what Nikon had to offer as a counter to the Rebel. The D70 is quite better even considering the $200 to $300 premium.

[jersey]

if youre looking to go into photo at any decent school ( or any school for that matter ) they will make you take an intro to photo / photo 1 to begin.

plus, most digital photo ends up in the graphic design department, simply because it involves computers.


in photo 1 you wont be allowed to use a digital camera. it will be an entire course on camera basics along with film and print processing. and really, it should be. as an instructor of both at 2 universities, i can tell you that you must understand camera and lighting basics BEFORE you move to digital. sure, most digital camera have a "manual" setting, but until you feel / see the aperture in a manual camera close down, you wont really understand how you're affecting the light.

best idea would be to contact the photo department at the schools you're considering, and find out what equipment they require.

as far as camera recommendations:

film: used contax g1. or a used cannon/nikon
(yes, i know there is a HUGE difference here, but the contax has the small size and way superior optics on its side.)

digital; it's hard to say. the tech. changes so quickly. personally i prefer the leica digilux 1 or 2 or its panasonic brethren. whatever it is, make sure it is over 5 mp.


-j

[tie]

Go digital.

Scanning is a big pain, and will eat a lot of your time (eventually you'll figure it out, but it isn't a useful skill).

Digital is a better learning tool, because you can see immediately, or at least as soon as you get back to a computer, what you have done. Nicely annotated with EXIF info for you (shutter speed, aperture, etc.). It encourages you to take many, many more shots, and this is generally a good thing. Film, especially for someone on a tight budget, discourages experimentation.

Digital is also more fun. Instant gratification is nice!

If you can stand the digital rebel, get that. It is a fairly good deal these days, especially after rebate. The D70 at the moment is significantly more expensive, but it is definitely a nicer camera to work with. The 20D is much more expensive again, and I would not recommend it at the moment. It is a mistake to spend so much money on the body (which will depreciate rapidly) and then skimp on the lenses. The $800 difference from 300D to 20D can buy a very nice lens or two, a tripod, flash, whatever.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
Buy used... go local (if there's a good store near you) or on the web from KEH.com

I've been shooting since 1998 and have only bought ONE brand-new camera in that time... although I've owned 4 or 5...

I'm also looking at getting into photography, taking a couple of photojournalism courses next semester. What sealed the deal for me on the Canon Digital Rebel was finding it used for $600 from a friend (who is our photo editor at the paper and babies his equipment). I've had it for about a week now, and I love it, it's a great starter camera, not too overladen with controls, but still able to be "fine tuned."

[V12]

well i am liking the nikon n80 or n75 for a SLR and i do have the room to make a dark room however it is still only idea


on the other hand i can just plug and play with a 300D plus i can get a great price on with 18-55mm zoom lens from buy.com after rebate so i still don't know

i wish there was a way to get the best of both worlds....

[vcutag]

Originally posted by V12:
well i am liking the nikon n80 or n75 for a SLR and i do have the room to make a dark room however it is still only idea


on the other hand i can just plug and play with a 300D plus i can get a great price on with 18-55mm zoom lens from buy.com after rebate so i still don't know

i wish there was a way to get the best of both worlds....

Again, the guy who said that digital was the best because it allows you to play with the aperture, exposure, etc. settings while not worrying about wasting film had a good point.

My only complaint is that my 256 MB card isn't big enough anymore. I went shooting the other day, thank god I had my PowerBook with me, as I had to empty it 4 times.

[DeathToWindows]

Originally posted by V12:


i wish there was a way to get the best of both worlds....

there is. it's called scan your bloody film.

[t6hawk]

Originally posted by ASIMO:
Have you been here? -- DPReview

DP Review is the best site i've found. That's where i found my present camera and i'm very happy with the recommendations found on that site. They also have a search option that lets you specify the features you want on the camera and shows you the best matches (includes price range)

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by tie:
Digital is a better learning tool, because you can see immediately, or at least as soon as you get back to a computer, what you have done. Nicely annotated with EXIF info for you (shutter speed, aperture, etc.). It encourages you to take many, many more shots, and this is generally a good thing. Film, especially for someone on a tight budget, discourages experimentation.

Bzzt wrong, digital wont help you at all. It makes you lazy, you don't THINK about it anymore. When you take a picture on film you have to think "hmm, how good/bad is this picture going to look" before pressing the shutter release ? You well get the feeling after a short period of time and you won't need the damn immediate viewing of a digital camera. With the immediate result on a digital camera you get a negative effect. You take a picture, you look at it and you think it sucks so you trash it and you take an other one. But did you think about what you did wrong ? No you didn't.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by V12:
well i am liking the nikon n80 or n75 for a SLR and i do have the room to make a dark room however it is still only idea


on the other hand i can just plug and play with a 300D plus i can get a great price on with 18-55mm zoom lens from buy.com after rebate so i still don't know

i wish there was a way to get the best of both worlds....

1. The N80/N75 are no good. Get a camera with a big viewfinder like an F90X (N90s) (only the X NOT the normal F90) or an F3, F4, F5, FM, etc.

2. That kitlens is a joke, don't use it.

3. Look at what DeathToWindows said.

[jersey]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Bzzt wrong, digital wont help you at all. It makes you lazy, you don't THINK about it anymore. When you take a picture on film you have to think "hmm, how good/bad is this picture going to look" before pressing the shutter release ? You well get the feeling after a short period of time and you won't need the damn immediate viewing of a digital camera. With the immediate result on a digital camera you get a negative effect. You take a picture, you look at it and you think it sucks so you trash it and you take an other one. But did you think about what you did wrong ? No you didn't.

you wont learn unless you use film first. simple as that. yes, digital is great, but you have to understand how a camera works, and how silver halides react to light before you move on. and...... no one has seemed to mention how poor digital can be in low light. digital can barley mimic 800 iso/asa film. it cant really get close to 3200 b +w (not that you would want to, 'casue it's grainy as hell.)

[jersey]

oh.... and it drives me insane when people look at the lcd on a digital camera instead of through the view finder. it makes you look like a monkey.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by MacMan4000:
I recommend the Fuji "e" series...

thanx for the hint.

i checked out the fuji finepix e500 today and really liked the feel of it. the only draw back for me would be the fact that it uses XD cards, which are still almost twice as much as SDs.

i also like the canon ixus 430 (i think in the us they're called powershot s 410). how does this camera compare to the finepix e 510 or the powershot s 500?

[SimeyTheLimey]

I learned photography with a Zenit TTL, so I think any of the recommendations you have heard here are much easier to use. Having said, that, I concur with the general advice to get a manual camera. If you want to learn photography as opposed to taking snapshots, you have to learn how a camera takes photographs. That is, how the aperture, shutter speed, focal length, and focus combine to create an image. The problem with automatic cameras is that all of those things are set by the camera and they tend to be set to give average results. But if you want to learn photography, what you want to do is to learn to take something above the average. That means going manual.

Once you have mastered a manual camera, you can always go automatic. You will then be in a position to supervise the camera and you will know when to override it.

Going manual basically means going for a film camera. I can see an argument for digital. Getting the results back quickly is great for learning. If what you want to do primarily is to learn to compose photographs, then that might be the way to go. But that's pretty much all you will learn with a digital automatic camera. I'd still recommend going manual -- unless you can afford one of the high end digital SLRs.

I think these days with the drop in used prices you can do better than the Pentax K1000. I'd take a look at getting a used Nikon. A lot of professionals have sold their Nikon F3s and F4s and the used prices have gone down considerably. The FM and FE, FE-2, and FE-3 models are also pretty widely available. Nikon lenses are also excellent, and Nikon generally has a high degree of interoperability between models. Unlike Canon, they have not changed lens mounts frequently, and because Nikon is a professional standard, there are a ton of used Nikons and accessories for them out there. If you want to go digital later, you can always add a digital camera and keep your lenses.

Check out the classic camera guides on this website. Stephen Gandy's opinions are very solid.

[DeathToWindows]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

I think these days with the drop in used prices you can do better than the Pentax K1000. I'd take a look at getting a used Nikon. A lot of professionals have sold their Nikon F3s and F4s and the used prices have gone down considerably. The FM and FE, FE-2, and FE-3 models are also pretty widely available. Nikon lenses are also excellent, and Nikon generally has a high degree of interoperability between models. Unlike Canon, they have not changed lens mounts frequently, and because Nikon is a professional standard, there are a ton of used Nikons and accessories for them out there. If you want to go digital later, you can always add a digital camera and keep your lenses.

Check out the classic camera guides on this website. Stephen Gandy's opinions are very solid.

I concur. I'd suggest the N80 b/c it's a nice light body... but considering that an N90/N90x can be had for around $200... get one.

[tie]

Originally posted by jersey:
oh.... and it drives me insane when people look at the lcd on a digital camera instead of through the view finder. it makes you look like a monkey.

Well, that settles it I guess. Anybody trying to compose using the LCD screen on a DSLR would look pretty silly.

There are cheaper digital cameras that still allow for full manual settings, e.g., the Canon A series. But I would recommend getting an SLR, either film or digital over these.