[Cody Dawg]

Seriously, how bad is cheating, really?

I never cheated in school or in college. I think my self-esteem prevented me from cheating. Cheating is something that would make me feel bad about myself, would make me think that I must be stupid or lazy.

I didn't cheat in college because, heck, I was there to learn. I paid my tuition all the way through college and I wanted to learn. The degree was secondary, not the point of going to college.

Anyway, a Wal-Mart heiress by the name of Paige Laurie recently had an entire stadium at the University of Missouri named after her in honor of her graduation, the "Paige Sports Stadium" after her parents donated $25 million to help build it. The reason her parents wanted the stadium named after her? Because her parents are so proud of her for finishing college at University of Southern California.

Only thing is, it is now revealed that Paige Laurie had someone else do her work for her all the way through college, a young lady by the name of Elena Martinez.

Seems that rich Paige Laurie was the equivalent of the evil stepsister to poor Martinez's Cinderella. Martinez was also attending USC but couldn't quite afford the tuition, so when Paige Laurie offered to pay her to write her papers, Martinez accepted to help defray the high cost of USC $30,000 a year tuition. Even after Martinez had to drop out of school herself, she continued to write Paige Laurie's papers, attended lectures, and even plays that had to be reviewed for school papers.

Now the gig is up. John Stossel profiled this issue on a recent "20/20" news magazine story on ABC.

Read here.

Now it appears that the University of Missouri is set to rename the stadium after the disgrace. "Mizzou Sports Stadium" is one name being floated.

And the young lady that did the work for Paige Laurie? She says she would like to go back to school at USC.

Personally, I think that both of them should be ashamed and if I were USC I would not let Elena Martinez resume her studies there.

How would you like a surgeon performing surgery on you that had never attended classes and had had someone else do his learning for him?

Anyway, just a little interesting human life story for y'all!

Have a good one.

[DeathToWindows]

Yeah, that's more than mildly disturbing.... and in all likelihood, it happens far, far too often in universities.

And mix it with booze and drugs and you've got BU... well, the cheating isn't as prevalent...

[Cody Dawg]

Dr. Theodore Fritz at BU is related by family to myself. He is part of the space physics faculty there.



Anyway, I've never cheated ever. I'm not particularly smart. I just studied. My GPA upon graduation was 3.92. If I can do it, anyone can.

[BRussell]

There's a book called The Cheating Culture that argues that cheating of all types is on the rise in our culture. Don't know if it's true, but here's a summary:

While there have always been those who cut corners, cheating has risen in the last two decades: corporate scandals, doping in sports, plagiarizing by journalists and students. Even ministers have been caught stealing sermons off the Internet. Why all the cheating? And why now?

Callahan pins the blame on the dog-eat-dog economic climate of the past twenty years. A harsh unfettered market and soaring income gaps have corroded our values, he argues, and threaten to corrupt the equal opportunity we cherish. What Callahan dubs “the Winning Class” has enough money and clout that it can cheat without consequences – while many in the Anxious Class believe that cheating is the only way to succeed in a winner-take-all world.

[hayesk]

If you are there to learn, then what would cheating do for you?

Some people who pay for tuition think that education should somehow be "infused" in them without have to do hard work, just because they are paying money. I say, revoke the cheater's degree, rename the building, and admit the person who did the real work on a scholarship.

[Sherwin]

I've never cheated on anything. I don't have to, 'coz I rock.

[SamuraiDL]

I used to constantly look at other peoples papers during tests and quizzes from about fifth grade to senior year in high-school. Now I dont, cuz i am no longer in school, but if I were in school, I would undoubtedly cheat again.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Some people who pay for tuition think that education should somehow be "infused" in them without have to do hard work, just because they are paying money.

I'm not even paying money to be in university (apart from through the taxes of my non-existant income), and I still wish education would just "infuse" itself into me!

I say, revoke the cheater's degree, rename the building, and admit the person who did the real work on a scholarship.

Already did the first two, it seems. And the girl who did all the work cheated just as much as the other girl by agreeing to do it - only difference is that Martinez probably learned a shitload from it.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I cheat like HELL but according to my own rules.

I would never cheat on a project directly correlating to my major or anything I feel important to me. However, at my art school we are forced to take humanities classes and has shite teachers because it is an art school. I never paid anybody to write or do anything for me, but a cheat sheet I made for myself with dates or something is perfectly acceptable.

You can argue making the cheat sheet is studying because it requires thought.

I graduated in 2002.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by hayesk:
If you are there to learn, then what would cheating do for you?

Does anyone see college as a place to learn anymore? It's really just a career path. And in a materialistic, results-oriented culture like we have, where what matters is the size of your SUV rather than how many 19th century poems you know, I guess it shouldn't be surprising.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Does anyone see college as a place to learn anymore? It's really just a career path. And in a materialistic, results-oriented culture like we have, where what matters is the size of your SUV rather than how many 19th century poems you know, I guess it shouldn't be surprising.

Do 19th century poems get you to where you're going in comfort?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Do 19th century poems get you to where you're going in comfort?

I guess that depends on where you're going. To some folks, the size of your SUV is what provides the comfort. Maybe to others that comfort involves knowledge and culture. I don't mean to be holier-than-thou, because I'm exactly the same way. There's no better feeling than knowing you've got a package on the Fedex truck coming to you from Apple or Amazon or whatever. And the way to get more packages coming your way is to have a good bottom-line, to get results. I just wish we as a culture weren't like that, and I wish I didn't get so caught up in it.

[MacNStein]

I see cheating on a regular basis, in one form or another. I'm usually very compassionate regarding my students who cheat. Usually, I'll just sit them down and explain to them how they're only hurting themselves, give them a "0" for the work they cheated on, and provide them an assignment that will help them make up for some of the damage to their grade. Yes, the makeup work is usually harder than than the work they cheated on, but I'll help them with it and work with them to improve their understanding of the subject... many, however, are too lazy to be bothered with such things and will just drop the class. That's their choice, but I do all I can.

[Cody Dawg]

Cheating is the same as shoplifting, the way I see it.

It's stealing other people's hard work, fortitude, and THEIR honesty.

Good for you, MacNStein.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Does anyone see college as a place to learn anymore? It's really just a career path.

It's quite the opposite for me. I still have no idea what career path I want to choose after I'm done with university; the only reason I'm in university is to suck up all the knowledge I can while there.

Unfortunately, this attitude is coupled with an almost unbelievable laziness that often results in me waking up at 11 o'clock, realising that I was supposed to have been to class three hours ago. But you can't have everything.

[Visnaut]

I don't lay any blame on Martinez, poor girl was just trying pay thru life, and some rich bitch came along with a golden opportunity. And now she's probably earning a bit on the side with these interviews. Good for her. At least she didn't turn to selling her body or something. Eat the rich, I say!

[wataru]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Cheating is the same as shoplifting, the way I see it.

Shoplifting is a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I see cheating on a regular basis, in one form or another. I'm usually very compassionate regarding my students who cheat. Usually, I'll just sit them down and explain to them how they're only hurting themselves, give them a "0" for the work they cheated on, and provide them an assignment that will help them make up for some of the damage to their grade. Yes, the makeup work is usually harder than than the work they cheated on, but I'll help them with it and work with them to improve their understanding of the subject... many, however, are too lazy to be bothered with such things and will just drop the class. That's their choice, but I do all I can.

Good point and I agree,

I saw my college schooling in a more tactical sense. I know i have a given amount of time for schoolwork for a week. As long as I do great in MY major in MY career path, I see the other classes as mere obstacles to getting "credits".

Let's face it, I remember the "jist" of what happened in history and math but it serves me no real purpose beyond that I know what to look up for reference now if I am still interested.

Basic classes like English, writing and basic math/algebra ARE important though. Not so much African History or Asian Culture 101 or some BS like that (unless it correlates yo tour major)

[d.fine]

Never, the only one you're cheating is yourself. Honesty lasts longer ...

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by Oisín:
It's quite the opposite for me. I still have no idea what career path I want to choose after I'm done with university; the only reason I'm in university is to suck up all the knowledge I can while there.

Unfortunately, this attitude is coupled with an almost unbelievable laziness that often results in me waking up at 11 o'clock, realising that I was supposed to have been to class three hours ago. But you can't have everything.

Going to a university for me is just necessary pain. I hate it, I hate studying, it doesn't interest me a bit. I would rather go and work (or go to an art school, but my parents won't let me). University is good for one thing: getting a University degree that provides you with 40%-50% more wage than the guy next to you with the same job but no univ. degree. These days you NEED a high degree and that's quite sad IMO. There are lot's of people who are competent. And especially more comptetent than other with a nice degree. University isn't about aquireing knowledge anymore. It's about securing your future cashflow.

Oh, and I seem to recognize myself inthe waking up at 11

[torsoboy]

If you are forced to take a class that really doesn't do anything for you except fill the general ed requirements (biology for example), then i don't think much at all about someone cheating. It's not hurting that person to cheat on their tests (or whatever) if they don't want to learn it anyway; and by doing poorly it does hurt your future (because grades are so important to the newly graduated employer), so why get a crap job (when you rock at the area you're going into) just because you failed philosophy, biology, or history? To me general ed classes should be done away with, and core classes should be the requirements. I'm all for "technical" schools. I do not think cheating on classes that help you get your final career started is appropriate though because that could mislead your future boss and could cause lots of problems.

all that said, i didn't cheat my way through school.


[edit]

Originally posted by Goldfinger:
Going to a university for me is just necessary pain. I hate it, I hate studying, it doesn't interest me a bit. I would rather go and work (or go to an art school, but my parents won't let me). University is good for one thing: getting a University degree that provides you with 40%-50% more wage than the guy next to you with the same job but no univ. degree. These days you NEED a high degree and that's quite sad IMO. There are lot's of people who are competent. And especially more comptetent than other with a nice degree. University isn't about aquireing knowledge anymore. It's about securing your future cashflow.

ditto (for my first degree at least)

[Atomic Rooster]

I remember cheating a little in high school. It's been awhile and my mind is a bit fuzzy but it was not much. I found high school easy so I didn't really need to.

College was a different story. Took graphic arts and since it's mainly creative it is not easy to cheat.

What I discovered later in my working days was that you can chuck ALMOST everything you ever learned in school in the dumpster. Everything is learned on the job. School is just an obstacle to overcome.

I should say college or university...I think elementary and high school are very important for many reasons beyond book learning.

So cheating may only be relevant in the life saving category such as medicine. You need to know the different parts of the body in medicine. But even doctors learn on the job. I certainly wouldn't want a doctor who cheated his way thru school. But I think that would be difficult to do.

Cheating to get a desk job...if you're capable of doing that you will soon learn the job or you will soon be found out.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
What I discovered later in my working days was that you can chuck ALMOST everything you ever learned in school in the dumpster. Everything is learned on the job. School is just an obstacle to overcome.

That's only if you view your college education as vocational training.

I understand why people see it that way, given the fact that virtually everyone today goes to college. In the past college was for a broad liberal education and everyone else went to vocational school or simply got trained on the job.

But isn't it kind of sad really? Why is working and making money the most important function of human beings, and therefore anything that doesn't further that goal should be chucked?

[driven]

I have failed about 8 or 9 students in the last two years for obvious plagiarism. These were adults that should have known better. I've failed a few more when it became quite obvious they knew nothing about the code that they turned in. (Teachers are NOT idiots folks!)

I'm sure that probably 2-3 times that number of students actually get away with it.

It really bothers me to a certain extent. I graduated with a 4.0 GPA and never cheated. It's not hard if you apply yourself.

It's your degree on the wall. If you graduate only you will know if it's real or fradulant. If you can live with it, ok.

[macaddict0001]

Originally posted by SamuraiDL:
I used to constantly look at other peoples papers during tests and quizzes from about fifth grade to senior year in high-school. Now I dont, cuz i am no longer in school, but if I were in school, I would undoubtedly cheat again.

That was you?

LEET H4XX0R

[shabbasuraj]

More on the Paige Arena..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Only thing is, it is now revealed that Paige Laurie had someone else do her work for her all the way through college...

first of all, i find it sickening that people should have so much money, no matter 'how hard' they worked for it.

secondly, i can't believe that a reputable university would even consider naming a sports arena after a daughter of somebody who donated money.

thirdly, disown paige and make her repay her entire tuition by sending her hooking in a cheap las vegas neighbourhood.

i cheated all through highschool (i HATED school), but didn't cheat once in college. i didn't have to because what i was learning interested me an i chose to be there.

[driven]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
first of all, i find it sickening that people should have so much money, no matter 'how hard' they worked for it.

How does someone having "so much money" affect you? Do you think that there is less to go around for you?

secondly, i can't believe that a reputable university would even consider naming a sports arena after a daughter of somebody who donated money.

No argument.

thirdly, disown paige and make her repay her entire tuition by sending her hooking in a cheap las vegas neighbourhood.

i cheated all through highschool (i HATED school), but didn't cheat once in college. i didn't have to because what i was learning interested me an i chose to be there. [/B]

If you cheated all through high-school you quite possibly didn't deserve to go to college.

[TheJoshu]

In high school I would sometimes write out cheat sheets for myself, but I'd always remember the information that I had written down and never use the sheets.

I guess that's called 'studying.'

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by driven:
How does someone having "so much money" affect you? Do you think that there is less to go around for you?

Some people, very foolishly, think that $ is some finite thing which is going to be "used up" by the financial elite. They don't understand that in an open market the more capital made by any individual benefits the entire system.

I'm always hearing about people being jealous regarding the wealth of others, but they seldom want to work to build some of that wealth for themselves (if that's what they want).

[Cody Dawg]

by wataru
Shoplifting is a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

I hope you're being facetious? Because shoplifting hurts EVERYONE in the prices we pay for things.

In one Publix grocery store here in Palm Beach county (on Northlake Boulevard) that I had to run into to grab something (don't normally shop there) I noticed that the store actually has to put magnetic sensors on their MEAT. Their meat! I mentioned it to the cashier, "Does the store really find it necessary to have to put magnetic anti-theft sensors on their meat?" She said, "Oh, yes! That is one of the first things that is stolen. We were losing a lot of meat before we started doing that. They still steal it, but it's harder for them."



Just to let you know? NY Strips at that store are $11.99 a pound.

In my own neighborhood, same store chain, the NY Strips are $8.99 a pound and I live in a better neighborhood...but no shoplifting goes on, or relatively little.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I hope you're being facetious? Because shoplifting hurts EVERYONE in the prices we pay for things.

In one Publix grocery store here in Palm Beach county (on Northlake Boulevard) that I had to run into to grab something (don't normally shop there) I noticed that the store actually has to put magnetic sensors on their MEAT. Their meat! I mentioned it to the cashier, "Does the store really find it necessary to have to put magnetic anti-theft sensors on their meat?" She said, "Oh, yes! That is one of the first things that is stolen. We were losing a lot of meat before we started doing that. They still steal it, but it's harder for them."



Just to let you know? NY Strips at that store are $11.99 a pound.

In my own neighborhood, same store chain, the NY Strips are $8.99 a pound and I live in a better neighborhood...but no shoplifting goes on, or relatively little.

I think he means that some people think of it as "victimless" because they're not able to see the the damage that they're doing. "If you don't see who you're hurting, then what's the crime?" kind of mentality.

[TheJoshu]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I hope you're being facetious? Because shoplifting hurts EVERYONE in the prices we pay for things.

He was quoting The Simpsons. That's why there was a nice little image of Nelson there, y'see.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Goldfinger:
Going to a university for me is just necessary pain. I hate it, I hate studying, it doesn't interest me a bit. I would rather go and work (or go to an art school, but my parents won't let me).

I'm sorry, but something sounds a bit odd there - how come your parents have any say at all in where you go to university? Surely that's the whole point - you move out and make your own choices!

Mine help me financially, but if they decided to try and hold that one over me I could register myself estranged from them and get my fees paid for me. Can't you do something like that?


Amorya

[alphamatrix]

I'm too lazy to cheat.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
first of all, i find it sickening that people should have so much money, no matter 'how hard' they worked for it.

secondly, i can't believe that a reputable university would even consider naming a sports arena after a daughter of somebody who donated money.

Hamburg University just named a library after the sponsor who built them the two legal studies buildings flanking the main building.

Fact of life.

What annoys me is the ****wits who renamed the "Volksparkstadion" to "AOL Arena". The damn thing was built in 1952/53. It has been around since before the internet was even a concept on a scribbled piece of paper in some military egghead's back pocket.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
first of all, i find it sickening that people should have so much money, no matter 'how hard' they worked for it.

It's an inherent trait and exists as an essential constituent or intrinsic characteristic of all us grunts trying to pay the monthly bills.

When all is said and done that is why we all love to hate Bill Gates.

And he was a dropout.

[fireside]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
if I were USC I would not let Elena Martinez resume her studies there.

why not?

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I hope you're being facetious? Because shoplifting hurts EVERYONE in the prices we pay for things.

...Bunch of crap...

You are so full of sh*t I can't even believe I'm replying to this. For someone with a 3.9+ GPA (thanks for sharing BTW) you are pretty uninformed. If you think that the prices put on a product has anything to do with a company's loss in shoplifted items, you're fooling yourself. You are so eager to find someone to point a finger and judge that you can't grasp the reality around you. Why do you post this crap? So you can feel good about yourself for being such a moral person? I find your pettiness offensive.

Stores price their items at the breaking point of what the market can bear. Often these prices are dictated by the manufacturer of the products, because the manufacturers usually have a better grasp of what that breaking point is, and where they want their products placed in the marketplace. Thats all there is to it. If shoplifting starts to affect the bottom line, stores take action, like putting anti-theft, or installing watchdogs around their stores. They don't jack the prices up. Think about it.

I'm not justifying shoplifting. It isn't a victimless crime (unlike punching someone in the dark), but its not the economic plague you and others make it out to be. Its a scapegoat for bad marketing, or bad management. As an aside, most shops could reduce their shoplifting problems by well over half by properly screening their employees.

As for your empirical evidence that because people were stealing meat at that store, it was over $11 a pound, that doesn't prove anything. All it does is show that people in that part of your neighborhood are willing to pay more for the meat, or it is better quality, or that its overpriced (thus creating an imbalance, possibly resulting in this backlash.)

You write like you know everything, but every word you type unmasks your ignorance just a little more.

//stealth edit - took the edge off

[BRussell]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
//stealth edit - took the edge off

That was with the edge off?

[undotwa]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I see cheating on a regular basis, in one form or another. I'm usually very compassionate regarding my students who cheat. Usually, I'll just sit them down and explain to them how they're only hurting themselves, give them a "0" for the work they cheated on, and provide them an assignment that will help them make up for some of the damage to their grade. Yes, the makeup work is usually harder than than the work they cheated on, but I'll help them with it and work with them to improve their understanding of the subject... many, however, are too lazy to be bothered with such things and will just drop the class. That's their choice, but I do all I can.

Where do you teach? What do you teach?

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by driven:
How does someone having "so much money" affect you? Do you think that there is less to go around for you?

LOL. no. of course the stupid 'jealousy' argument (not by you) came up in a reply right away.

i wasn't even thinking about that. personally it is of no interest to me what others have. nor do i give a hoot about a retarded protestant work ethic.

i was thinking about the possibility of influencing 'public affairs' through wealth (i.e. corruption, bribery etc.) - that's not a good thing. especially when it comes to education.

as to your comment about me not 'deserving to go to college', - my grades and my degree suggest differently.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Hamburg University just named a library after the sponsor who built them the two legal studies buildings flanking the main building.

Fact of life.

i wouldn't call it a 'fact of life', but a rather sad and revolting side effect of our econopolitical system. but i guess that's the way things go these days.

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
What annoys me is the ****wits who renamed the "Volksparkstadion" to "AOL Arena"....

this has been pissing me off for a long time as well. every single fu<king stadium that has been built in recent years has been named after some retarded corporation (i.e. 'pepsi arena', 'delta center' etc.)

the new hockey stadium here is going to be called, who wudda thunk - the 'sap-arena' ...and the stadium in munich will be named the 'allianz arena/stadium' gonna make me hate bayern just so much more...if that's even possible.

[driven]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
LOL. no. of course the stupid 'jealousy' argument (not by you) came up in a reply right away.

i wasn't even thinking about that. personally it is of no interest to me what others have. nor do i give a hoot about a retarded protestant work ethic.

i was thinking about the possibility of influencing 'public affairs' through wealth (i.e. corruption, bribery etc.) - that's not a good thing. especially when it comes to education.

as to your comment about me not 'deserving to go to college', - my grades and my degree suggest differently.

... then of course you didn't have to cheat. :-)

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
You are so full of sh*t I can't even believe I'm replying to this. For someone with a 3.9+ GPA (thanks for sharing BTW) you are pretty uninformed. If you think that the prices put on a product has anything to do with a company's loss in shoplifted items, you're fooling yourself. You are so eager to find someone to point a finger and judge that you can't grasp the reality around you. Why do you post this crap? So you can feel good about yourself for being such a moral person? I find your pettiness offensive.

Stores price their items at the breaking point of what the market can bear. Often these prices are dictated by the manufacturer of the products, because the manufacturers usually have a better grasp of what that breaking point is, and where they want their products placed in the marketplace. Thats all there is to it. If shoplifting starts to affect the bottom line, stores take action, like putting anti-theft, or installing watchdogs around their stores. They don't jack the prices up. Think about it.

I'm not justifying shoplifting. It isn't a victimless crime (unlike punching someone in the dark), but its not the economic plague you and others make it out to be. Its a scapegoat for bad marketing, or bad management. As an aside, most shops could reduce their shoplifting problems by well over half by properly screening their employees.

As for your empirical evidence that because people were stealing meat at that store, it was over $11 a pound, that doesn't prove anything. All it does is show that people in that part of your neighborhood are willing to pay more for the meat, or it is better quality, or that its overpriced (thus creating an imbalance, possibly resulting in this backlash.)

You write like you know everything, but every word you type unmasks your ignorance just a little more.

//stealth edit - took the edge off

FLASH: Rumors are that researchers have injected a mixture of SMEGMA and FECULA into a seemingly brain dead human who goes by the alias of DeathMan. Doctors are considering re-naming him SMEGULA...Film at 11.

http://www.nrf.com/content/press/rel...hoplifting.htm
For Immediate Release
Contact: Ellen Tolley/Scott Krugman (202) 783-7971
E-Mail: krugmans@nrf.com or tolleye@nrf.com

*** MEDIA AVAILABILITY ***

THE COST OF SHOPLIFTING: $10.23 BILLION PER YEAR
--NRF's Loss Prevention expert Dan Butler
available today for broadcast and print interviews--

_WHAT:_ NRF's Loss Prevention expert Dan Butler available today (11/7/02)_for broadcast and print interviews
_WHO: Dan Butler, Vice-President of Retail Operations for the National Retail Federation
_WHEN:_ _Broadcast interview availability times today between 11:30-3:00 p.m. and after 4:00 p.m. EST
_HOW:_ _To schedule a TV appearance, or to speak with Dan Butler, call Ellen Tolley or Scott Krugman at (202) 783-7971

_________ With the sizeable national interest of the Winona Ryder shoplifting case, many are left to wonder how much shoplifting really plays a part in retailers' losses and consumer's prices. The National Retail Federation estimates that shoplifting cost retailers $10.23 billion in 2001, up from 8.45 billion in 2000. Increased losses mean increased prices, from the smallest retailers up to the nation's leading discounters.

What does shoplifting mean for consumers?

"When shoplifting levels are high, consumers pay the price," said Dan Butler, Vice President of Retail Operations for the National Retail Federation. "Stores must focus more on loss prevention and, in turn, less on customer service. Also, prices inevitably will increase for consumers because retailers have to make up those losses."

A background on Dan Butler:

Dan Butler was named Vice President, Retail Operations for the National Retail Federation (NRF), the world's largest retail trade association, in January 2001. Butler is responsible for committee meetings of top retail executives, developing conference programming, and ensuring that NRF members are well informed and on the cutting-edge of retail industry issues. He serves as the NRF liaison to several member committees, including the Loss Prevention Committee, Diversity Council, Human Resources Specialty Store Roundtable, and Internal Audit Committee.

Butler is a retail veteran with over two decades of store-line experience in retail management, merchandising, and human resources. His career includes a history of exceeding sales plans, reducing associate turnover, and achieving inventory control objectives

Prior to joining NRF, Butler was Vice President and Store Manager at Macy's department store in Miami, Florida. While at Macy's, he managed a store with $48 million in annual sales volume and he successfully reduced dollar shrinkage and internal and external shortage. Before joining Macy's in 1998, Butler spent 13 years with Hecht's department stores, first as division sales manager and then as store manager for stores in central Pennsylvania. He was named Division Sales Manager of the Year twice while serving in that capacity.

_________ The National Retail Federation (NRF) is the world's largest retail trade association with membership that comprises all retail formats and channels of distribution including department, specialty, discount, catalog, Internet and independent stores. NRF members represent an industry that encompasses more than 1.4 million U.S. retail establishments employs more than 20 million people -- about 1 in 5 American workers -- and registered 2001 sales of $3.5 trillion. NRF's international members operate stores in more than 50 nations. In its role as the retail industry's umbrella group, NRF also represents 32 national and 50 state associations in the U.S. as well as 36 international associations representing retailers abroad. For more information about NRF, please visit www.nrf.com.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by Amorya:
I'm sorry, but something sounds a bit odd there - how come your parents have any say at all in where you go to university? Surely that's the whole point - you move out and make your own choices!

Mine help me financially, but if they decided to try and hold that one over me I could register myself estranged from them and get my fees paid for me. Can't you do something like that?


Amorya

Well, they I can choose where I want to go or what I want to study as long as it's university. They only want me to do this to secure my own future. And I agree with them that going to an art school is not al that good because you end up with a degree that offers zero financial security over here. I know it's for my own good so that's why it's a necessary pain.

What do you mean with registering yourself as enstranged from them ? Do you register as "being kicked out of the house" and the government pays everything ? I don't think that's possible over here. You CAN get a financial aid from the government to study but only in 2 cases AFAIK: 1. Your family has an income below a certain point (which is not the case) or 2. You are on your own and you must prove that you have worked for a minimum of 12 months.

I'll get through it. It's only 4 years for a master and 1 year extra for a postgraduat.

[Cody Dawg]

"SMEGULA!"

I am laughing my Thanksgiving turkey *ss off, aberdeenwriter!

ROFLMAO!

[DeathMan]

Originally googled and pasted without thought by aberdeenwriter:
FLASH: I'm so creative and articulate, I can indirectly call people banned words on an internet forum!.

Name calling. Nice. Make yourself look good. Allright, you've convinced me. Okay, you haven't but still, I think you're really creative, and a really good googler.

THE COST OF SHOPLIFTING: $10.23 BILLION PER YEAR
"When shoplifting levels are high, consumers pay the price," said Dan Butler, Vice President of Retail Operations for the National Retail Federation. "Stores must focus more on loss prevention and, in turn, less on customer service. Also, prices inevitably will increase for consumers because retailers have to make up those losses."

This quote works toward the point I'm trying to make. Notice this guy, who obviously has a lot of experience says that primarily when people are shoplifting a lot at a particular store, it affects the customer experience by taking money away from things like customer service. Might he also have mentioned lower quality product, or more poorly paid staff? He also adds, as a weak aside says that prices "inevitably will increase" - meaning prices will *eventutally* go up. Duh. Its called inflation, and its been happening since there was money. Notice he didn't say anything like: "Forcing store owners to raise prices." He would know that a store owner would only raise prices when they were naturally ready to go up. Need to make up for losses in accidents, shoplifting? Etc? The money comes from other places. Prices would *inevitably* go up even if there wasn't shoplifting. Maybe shoplifting has some effect on inflation, but I think we can all agree that it isn't the primary driving force. Price is the *last* thing a store manager wants to mess with for any reason other than the economic climate.

Yes, shoplifting hurts store owners, and possibly store employees in the form of lower wages, lost benefits, more work (heaven forbid), and this in the long term can have an effect on the buyer experience, but bringing the price per pound of a steak from $9 to $12? I don't think so. You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that members of capitalist society with plenty of other options could handle artificially raising the price by over 30%.

Add abereen writer to my list of people posting poorly thought out crap. People like you are ruining this forum.


//Edit: Fixed some bbcodes

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
"SMEGULA!"

I am laughing my Thanksgiving turkey *ss off, aberdeenwriter!

ROFLMAO!

You're a very moral and good person, unless someone tells you your wrong. If someone suggests that you to *think* rather than *react* you're into petty name-calling and LOLing encouraging expressly immoral, and degrading behavior.

Your attitude is far more revolting than Cash at his worst.

[TheJoshu]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
i wouldn't call it a 'fact of life', but a rather sad and revolting side effect of our econopolitical system. but i guess that's the way things go these days.

Too bad that means it's a fact of life at least for us, at present.