[mrtew]

A thought that occurred to me while reading the "Evolution" thread is how to draw a line separating different species. My understanding is that humans tamed wolves around the time of the Neanderthal (and that the dog-human friendship is what may have given us the advantage needed to finally beat the Neanderthals in the race for world dominance). It's agreed, I think, that all dogs are descended from the Gray Wolf of northern Europe/Asia, and became what they are today largely at the hand of man.

Dogs are all one species that we've morphed into hundreds of breeds, but are they still wolves? I know they can breed successfully with wolves so maybe they are. But they do seem very different... much more so than many separate species like tigers and cheetahs. And a Husky or German Shepherd seems a lot more closely related to a wolf than it does to a Poodle. And if wolves are the same species as dogs then how about coyotes? I think they can breed with dogs. No? Are they all one species or not? Where do you draw the line and how?

[Busemann]

Well, as you said they originated from the same species so they must have several similarities.. Some are closer than others, I think the arctic dogs can be placed somewhere in between. Yet there are some major differences in both appearance and behavior that separate the two species from each others.

[BlueSky]

Yes.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by Bluesky:
Yes.

Nope. Same family, different species.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...2240.Zo.r.html

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Nope. Same family, different species.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...2240.Zo.r.html

wouldn't that be the same genus, not the same family??

Code:
[domain]
     kingdom
          phylum
               class
                    order
                         family
                              genus
                                   species

and tew, i think they know because of genetic similarities. this is a rather new advent, before it was only phenotypical similarities. now about those eskie pics....

[tooki]

I don't remember where i saw/read this, but the other thing that researchers found is that most of our domesticated animals were domesticated more than once. That is, there isn't one ancestral dog that was domesticated, rather people all over the world took wolves and tamed them, some at the same time, some not. Same with most of our domesticated critters.

tooki

[argod]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2498669.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3804817.stm

[macaddict0001]

they are of the same genus but definitly not the same species.

[Cubeoid]

A wolf is just an evil version of a dog.

[argod]

Originally posted by Cubeoid:
A wolf is just an evil version of a dog.

May be Jesus should have died for their sin.
So they can be born again.

[cenutrio]

Yes, they're the same species. You can cross them and their progeny would still be reproductive. This is a traditional species definition, usually applicable to superior animals. Molecular typing techniques such as rDNA analysis (used by taxonomist for philogeny research) do also confirm that dogs and wolfs share a common ancestor and are within the same species. Also, although dogs and wolfs phenotypic appearance show a huge variability, genetically speaking they are still very conserved.

There's lot's of literature on the topic. I would recommend the NCBI web site for searching.

Finally, humans are known to have a major impact in natural selection and evolution of domesticated species. Humanity has selected dogs breeds for hunting, sheperd, etc, for thousands of years. A major change happened on the victorian society on the late XIX century when selection based on dog abilities that help us changed for the more questionable looks....so much breeding in search for the perfect individual is not really paying of since most are pretty much useless and the reduction of genetic variability is cascading in dogs that easily suffer degenerative illnesses...

There's lots of literature on the topic, really.

[macaddict0001]

Originally posted by cenutrio:
Yes, they're the same species. You can cross them and their progeny would still be reproductive. This is a traditional species definition, usually applicable to superior animals. Molecular typing techniques such as rDNA analysis (used by taxonomist for philogeny research) do also confirm that dogs and wolfs share a common ancestor and are within the same species. Also, although dogs and wolfs phenotypic appearance show a huge variability, genetically speaking they are still very conserved.

There's lot's of literature on the topic. I would recommend the NCBI web site for searching.

Finally, humans are known to have a major impact in natural selection and evolution of domesticated species. Humanity has selected dogs breeds for hunting, sheperd, etc, for thousands of years. A major change happened on the victorian society on the late XIX century when selection based on dog abilities that help us changed for the more questionable looks....so much breeding in search for the perfect individual is not really paying of since most are pretty much useless and the reduction of genetic variability is cascading in dogs that easily suffer degenerative illnesses...

There's lots of literature on the topic, really.

sure but have you ever seen a poodle and a wolf going at it.

[cenutrio]

(I knew somebody would point at this

Of course, in some cases there may be some "physical" difficulties (logically, in the case of small female dogs and big guys), but interbreeding would be possible (not easy) and progeny would be sexually capable....

[olePigeon]

Dogs are the retarded offspring of Wolves.

[macaddict0001]

not retarded offspring. Supermodel offspring

[spiky_dog]

since south park showed us that elephants and pigs can mate*, does this mean that they are the same species?

* i am assuming the offspring was fertile

[zigzag]

I read somewhere that domesticated dogs are basically juvenile versions of wolves - they were selected to chase and play-bite (as juvenile wolves do) but not kill or eat. Thus their ability to herd sheep, retrieve game, etc. Of course, like Scandinavian tourists, once they're in in a group all bets are off.

Since I read it somewhere, it must be true.

The origin of the poodle is too weird to even contemplate.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
not retarded offspring. Supermodel offspring

No, they're retarded. The results of way too much incest and inbreeding.

[macaddict0001]

I never said supermodels weren't retarded.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by cenutrio:
Yes, they're the same species. ... There's lot's of literature on the topic. I would recommend the NCBI web site for searching.

The NCBI Web site appears to show the wolf as Canis lupus and the domestic dog as Canis familiaris ... in other words, separate species.